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I agree with jfrazell on that point. The advice is very person specific, next person, next case.

Orlanth you are a scholar and gentleman and I am glad you do not charge for your advice. Your post hits very close to the issue, and I have bit my lip way to many times, fighting the urge to make a jerk of myself in front of my gaming group. One major reason I have always kept it civil is because my friendship with my buddy, He can’t help whom he is related to, you know the old saying. " You can pick your friends but you can’t pick family." He sees the problem and so do some other gamers that have known them for a while. They handle him in small doses and my house is not the first one the cousin has gotten kicked out of. One of the other reasons is I’ve always tried to be the nice guy, which is the way I was raised, that is why I continued to allow him into my house even after a number of times of being a big pain in the butt to me. I can understand he may be a lonely guy but he does a lot damage to himself.
I posted on Dakka Dakka in hopes of an honorable way dealing with this and to reinforce my feelings where right.
Thanks to everyone who replied.

Now to my next problem . . . How to keep working on one project until it’s finished before you start another . . . I have something like 20 projects going right now . . . I really need to learn to focus. But that will be talked about in a new topic tread..

Next Case please... my time is done and dont want to be charged...

Iorek: I agree with jfrazell regading the article. Just to throw my 2 in. Also, good to see I am not the only one who thinks the "mandatory inclusion" rule sounded a little off.

MagicalMemories: I think we have different ideas on what constitutes "lost sheep". I'm not trying to "stretch" anything; if I took a different meaning from what you meant then that's called "miscommunication". There was no intent to twist your words or anything of the sort, I merely called what I saw, and judging from the posts that followed I was not alone. And the blood-sucking rule isn't the one that says "if you pay here, you can play here.", it's the one that says (and this is what I inferred from your post) "As a store owner, I want all my little income sources to feel included (so that they spend more $$$) SO bad that I will force them onto people who may or may NOT want to have anything to do with them."
Magical, from what you are saying, this rule worked. This rule sounds more intrusive than inclusive, in that it sounds like the owner forced new people onto existing groups without the groups consent; thereby doing more intruding (upon everyone in the group) than including (the one new person). However, all that aside, from what you say, it worked. The only way I can figure that can be, is that there was some sort of sponsorship or active governorship of the game in question by the store establishment beyond merely providing a venue. Maybe an employee was DMing, maybe there was some kind of prize support, maybe something else. Did you observe something to this effect? Was there some kind of additional piece that made this more viable than it evidently appears here?

Heck Magical; even YOU said in your OP mentioning this rule that it would cause trouble for our intrepid hero Genoside07 if it existed at his FLGS. That's not sounding like a working rule to me.

My FLGS; this would never happen. The owner wants someone to do ANYTHING of the kind, he asks. He doesn't brown-out, but he makes a polite request that is made to feel and is meant to be a true expression of having an option. He wanted me to run his youngest kid through a game of 40k. He ASKED me, he didn't tell me that I had to include his son in the game I was playing. I could have turned it down, no problem.

My House, My Rules? No kidding. I don't contest that, and never will. I don't argue with a man about the rules he makes in his own home; I abide by them respectfully or I leave if I think it is too left-field. I would expect the same in my home, so I extend it to the owners of ANY store I visit.

Private game? No problem. I might ask about getting in on a later game, but I would respect their decision without hesitation. I would FEEL fine. There isn't ALWAYS room for another player. Including someone at a random moment can be a PITA no matter their age, depnding on what the group was trying to accomplish that day. The PITA factor doesn't nec. have anything to do with the persons personality at all. WHat's appropriate depends on the group, not the individual. That's who should decide.

Genoside07 wrote: I am glad you do not charge for your advice. Next Case please... my time is done and dont want to be charged...

Ok, straight off. I might word my responces in an 'educated' way, but I am not formally trained in psychology. So it would be fraudulent for me to attempt to charge you anway. I think I should make this point in case my posts were taken to imply that I was a practicing psychologist/psychiatrist, which I am NOT. I just know similar cases.

Genoside07 wrote:
Your post hits very close to the issue,...... He can’t help whom he is related to, you know the old saying. " You can pick your friends but you can’t pick family." He sees the problem and so do some other gamers that have known them for a while. They handle him in small doses and my house is not the first one the cousin has gotten kicked out of.

Something your friend is not talking about, and that is the why. Maybe he doesnt know, if he does the cousin has told him not to tell.
If you are not wanting to go down the route of getting this person 'out' from your life:

- Ask the friend if he knows the cause of his cousins problems. This is different from asking what the problems are. The purpose of this is to find out if the cousin is bottling up what is hurting him. It is obvious he has family that love him, but that in itself is not a safeguard against a rejection symdrome, hence the internal need to find friends - and to test their friendship.
If my guesses are correct your friend will have vague ideas at best.

- The handle him in small doses makes sense. Hence the principle of proactively inviting him in small doses like on a month to bi-montly basis. I suspect if he has no invite he will make one because he is desperate. If he has an invite for a month down the line it will excite him and he may respect that and look forward to the venue in the meantime staying away from your home at other times. If this doesnt work and he keeps on turning up while he has a schedule of invitation(s) drop the whole invite plan as it isnt working. However as this person needs a character change expect a few lapses.

- On this note I caution you on the 'three strikes' approach advocated by others on this thread, the idea of first time warning, second time temporary kick out third time permenant wont work. The guy could seriously attempt to make progress with you but may forget himself in all the excitement, you will know if he is having progress if e recognisesd the wrong when challenged. You are trying to break a bad habit here with an absolute rule, sorry it doesnt work like that.
If you want to give this guy a chance to improve accept that it will be a process, get him to understand the mentality of respecting your space, which is more than a list of DO's and DONT's explain that in a humane way. What I mean by this is if he gets in your bag, you are hurt, not angry. If he has good in him he will accept the difference in emotional signals and respond favourably to a 'do no harm' thought process than a 'yet another guy is angry at me' process.

Genoside07 wrote:
and I have bit my lip way to many times, fighting the urge to make a jerk of myself in front of my gaming group. One major reason I have always kept it civil is because my friendship with my buddy, One of the other reasons is I’ve always tried to be the nice guy, which is the way I was raised, that is why I continued to allow him into my house even after a number of times of being a big pain in the butt to me. I can understand he may be a lonely guy but he does a lot damage to himself.

You sound like a nice person, it is my pleasure to help you.

This person does do a lot of damage to his credibility, but it looks to be like a reflection of damage done to him in earlier years. My guess is that the causes were from school pre-teens running and accumulating in the teenage years. Once the pattern was established of his 'victim status' by about age 8-10, he would socially fall behind in development and create a gap that other unrelated bullies and ordinary people could hate him for. Its a viscious spiral. Once school was done he was outside a rigid system so he subsequently falls though society and hits rock bottom. I take it this guy cant get a job. A rejection complex like this usually stems from persistent bullying from an early age while socially isolated, though he may have a child abuse history (as victim). One thing that is almost certain, whatever horrors he had to face in his formative years, he had to face them alone, support might have been available but he might not have seen it or been able to grasp it for one reason or another. Normally bullying victims often fall into the 'never snitch' mental trap imprinted on them by bullies who want to further bully them into being silent. In effect it is likely this guy has been programmed by hard words and the occassional flying fist. Any attempt to shout at him or hit him is translated into reinforcement of the abuse he had. Any attempt to coerce him into telling you why he is why he is activates the programmed 'never snitch' response which is to say something on the lines of 'I dont know'.
This is just a guess though, I could be very wrong but he appeals to be on cue for the profile I have seen before.
Trying to get this guy sorted at his current age, late 20's will be more difficult. Likely he will always carry some damage.


Some behavioural guesses.

Speaking out of turn: "Hello I am here. Talk to me." His conversation might not have any relevance to what you are doing because to him its not about the game its having peer company that isnt abusing him.

Looking through your bags etc: "This is you." Hard to describe, again its getting personal with you. It certainly gets your attention and likely triggers the rejection that unconsciously he seeks/expects from people he meets. The correct response is to be 'hurt' by his actions but not 'angered'. This guy doesnt understand the concept of personal space its like trying to describe colour to a man born blind. Your 'hurt' can be explained to him particularly if you look hurt. This might go under his barriers and get through to him. This will be a process, he wont learn first time, but if he apologises you are making progress.

Cheating at games: "I can win at something." The only actual negative sign of his inner character you described. But maybe this guy needs the feeling of accomplishment. I doubt he games much because of lack of social contact and wont be able to build up a skill like a normal player. But he needs to be ok at something. Try and steer him towards a multiplayer boardgame where it really doesnt matter who wins. Keep it with as fantasy or SF element so that his imagination is still involved. Talisman has something he can dream about, Monopoly doesnt. Agree quietly amongst the rest of the group that noone is to gang up on him.

It will be up to your friend to see if his cousing is making progress or to suggest the guy gets help if he opens himself up enough to grasp for it. That isnt your job, and it certainly not mine. IF (I am winging it a bit here) I am right in thinking the cousin has been refusing help it is likely because he associates getting help with admitting that he is mad. With his accelerating social decline as he advanced through the teenage years it is very likely what was wrong with him was accentuated into accusations of madness by his abusers. After all you asked if he was on medication, while it is clear from your description of this man that he is not actually mad per se. In such cases it might be best to find a non-medical support as there would be a resistance to accepting psychiatric help due to a perceived stigma. It would e proving his abusers 'right all along'. One means of bypassing this is a church group or a self help group. These must be chosen carefully. The wrong church is sadly far more commonplace than the right one. Certain biblical truths as taught in some churches are liberating, but the Bible is a big book, and other churches perfer to read other parts more often. I can think of truths which if he grasped would of themselves free this man. I can also think of doctrines taught in other two-faced hardcore churches that would turn a man such as him into something akin to a mindless robot.

Huh, I wish I hadn't posted before now, all thats just been said makes me wnat to hide under a rock for offering different advice.

Orlanth maybe you should think of doing psychology, you seem to be good at it without having done the course, just an idea. take it as you will

It has nothing to do with psycology, it has to do with breaking out of the norm and finding a solution that actually works. It's easy to just close the door in someone's face, but it's a lot harder to sit them down and actually talk over why you're upset with them, face to face.

Stromlord. If you were from the US I could accept that advice, but in the Uk psychology is more to do with adhering to politcally correct dogmas than actually sorting out problems. Frankly I can do more good as an ordinary joe with an opinion (and some church ministry work experience) than I ever could through social services.

Whitedragon. Well it is psychology, but some things you can do as an amateur others you shouldn't (law and medicine come to mind). I know friends who can help fix a car, but are not mechanics.
You are very right in your analysis its about find solutions that work. But I hope I haven't levelled a moral burden on Genocide beyond the need to understand what is likely happening regarding his aquaintance. Ultimately someone with more experience needs to be on board to help.

whitedragon wrote:It has nothing to do with psycology, it has to do with breaking out of the norm and finding a solution that actually works. It's easy to just close the door in someone's face, but it's a lot harder to sit them down and actually talk over why you're upset with them, face to face.

But if you're a weak person, I think slamming the door in the guy's face sounds like a much easier plan.

Orlanth wrote:Whitedragon. Well it is psychology, but some things you can do as an amateur others you shouldn't (law and medicine come to mind). I know friends who can help fix a car, but are not mechanics.
You are very right in your analysis its about find solutions that work. But I hope I haven't levelled a moral burden on Genocide beyond the need to understand what is likely happening regarding his aquaintance. Ultimately someone with more experience needs to be on board to help.

I guess I didn't explain myself well enough. I wasn't disagreeing with you, only to rebut Stormlord about you being a "psycologist" and rather being a concerned person who decided to try to do the right thing for once, instead of the easy thing.

And yes, there is no moral obligation on the part of Genocide to help this person with his "rejection complex", you are absolutely correct. However, kindness, understanding, and communication can lead to a solution to his "gaming" problem without alienating anyone or hurting their feelings. Sure, it may take a little more effort, but it leads to a much nicer atmosphere for everyone, without any lasting "stigma" on the group.

I mean hell, it may be simple enough to say, "Hey, I really don't appreciate what you're doing." The person may have no idea they are being rude. It boggles my mind why people won't just "talk" to each other when they have a problem. In this modern day and age, I find that people don't just "talk" enough.

Perhaps, Whitedragon, you are just Immune To Psychology.

whitedragon wrote:
I mean hell, it may be simple enough to say, "Hey, I really don't appreciate what you're doing." The person may have no idea they are being rude. It boggles my mind why people won't just "talk" to each other when they have a problem. In this modern day and age, I find that people don't just "talk" enough.

Have you seen the film Nell, with Jodie Foster. I recommend it to you because I think you would like it, it has the same message as you.

Orlanth wrote:Perhaps, Whitedragon, you are just Immune To Psychology.

I can still fail a mean "break" test though! And does Nell have a happy ending? I hate watching screwed up mind-bender/mind screws where messed up stuff happens and nobody gets their due in the end. It makes me mad and uncomfortable.

whitedragon wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Perhaps, Whitedragon, you are just Immune To Psychology.

I can still fail a mean "break" test though! And does Nell have a happy ending? I hate watching screwed up mind-bender/mind screws where messed up stuff happens and nobody gets their due in the end. It makes me mad and uncomfortable.

You need to watch the ending to get the reference and is why I recommended the film. Nell's insight and gift is not revealed before that time.

Hmm, well maybe I'll check it out!