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Typeline: So by that logic

Jump infantry models may not end their move on top of other models or impassable terrain

They *can* land on impassable terrain, since they aren't 'really' JI models.

Jump infantry fall back 3D6",

They also only fall back 2d6"

When using jump packs, they can
move over all other models and all terrain freely.

Since they are *not* using jump packs... .the can't ignore models and terrain.

Hmmm coredump that last bit is an interesting point. lol

Man I wish GW could write clearer rules.

coredump wrote:Typeline: So by that logic

Jump infantry models may not end their move on top of other models or impassable terrain

They *can* land on impassable terrain, since they aren't 'really' JI models.

Jump infantry fall back 3D6",

They also only fall back 2d6"

When using jump packs, they can
move over all other models and all terrain freely.

Since they are *not* using jump packs... .the can't ignore models and terrain.

No no coredump, I'm not doing a logic exercise. Those are pointless. Those are the rules.

Edit: Your quoting the Jump pack rules out of context anyway.

Stelek wrote:Why should I do anything but ignore you? Righto.

Assuming you're actually participating in this discussion, the answer would be to show that you're not, in fact, just claiming that it works that way because you say so.

Since you seem to prefer making snide remarks to actually providing an argument, I'm certainly not holding my breath waiting for you to provide something relevant to the discussion.



Typeline... all of that, and you're still missing the point.

If the model moves as Jump Infantry, it follows the movement rules for Jump Infantry.
If the model is Jump Infantry, then it follows all of the rules for Jump Infantry.

That's the difference between Jump Packs and Wings.

You can't just pick out the rules you want from the Jump Infantry Movement rules and claim that those are the only rules that apply. There is simply no logic to that claim.

If any of the JI Movement rules apply to a model that moves as JI, then all of the JI Movement rules must apply to that model.

If you have anything new to add, and are prepared to discuss it rationally without all the cute little remarks, feel free. Otherwise, I'm done here.

insaniak wrote:

If the model moves as Jump Infantry, it follows the movement rules for Jump Infantry.
If the model is Jump Infantry, then it follows all of the rules for Jump Infantry.

That's the difference between Jump Packs and Wings.

You can't just pick out the rules you want from the Jump Infantry Movement rules and claim that those are the only rules that apply. There is simply no logic to that claim.

If any of the JI Movement rules apply to a model that moves as JI, then all of the JI Movement rules must apply to that model.

If you have anything new to add, and are prepared to discuss it rationally without all the cute little remarks, feel free. Otherwise, I'm done here.

No your missing it though. I didn't pick and choose anything. It says those things. I got all of it down. I know models that are jump infantry follow all the rules for jump infantry. I put all the rules for jump infantry down up on page 2. I never picked out the ones I wanted. If I wanted to do that I wouldn't post what the rules say then highlight things, hell I wouldn't post the rules. I would do like everyone else is doing making a bunch of statements on conjecture. I just showed you which portions of each part to read because those portions pertained to what we're talking about.

And the weird thing is is that this

Insaniak wrote:
If any of the JI Movement rules apply to a model that moves as JI, then all of the JI Movement rules must apply to that model.

doesn't appear in the rules.

Insaniak you can't pick and choose which rules to follow, you have to read them all then follow what applies to each individual model.

And please consider this as me not adding anything new, I'd love for you to go away right now. Your being too stubborn to actually offer a rebuttal.

Hold on people lets be civil here. Stelek why do you believe that not all of the movement rules apply to models with wings? Is it because it says that only jump infantry models take dangerous terrain tests? By that token they also can't move 12" because it says jump infantry models may move 12" right?

@Red_Lives:

Can you quote the rule that says 'jump infantry models' move 12" please?

Quote it exactly.

Thanks.

ok...
BRB p 52
"Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equilivent) and move 12" in the movement phase. This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish. When using jump packs they can move over other models and all terrain freely. However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it mus take a difficult terrain test."

Phew thats a long one

Thanks.

I wonder if you see the point then?

I'm guessing not.

Jump Infantry is a term, and you can see how it relates to the Chaos Winged wargear by the 'or equivalent' sentence.

Remember that Jump Infantry models are in fact those Jump Infantry with the Jump Infantry 'type' (just as Artillery, Beasts, Cavalry, Infantry, Bikes, Jet Packs, Jetbikes, and Monstrous Creatures are all defined).

Next sentence.

This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry.

Next sentence.

When using jump packs they can move over other models and all terrain freely.

Don't forget GW has explicitly stated 'or equivalent' and do not need to say this again.

Next sentence.

So, NOW does it say 'Jump Infantry' or 'Jump Infantry Model'?

A Jump Infantry Model HAS the 'Jump Infantry' unit type.

As stated in the FAQ, 'Winged' does not change your unit type.

Why are Winged models affected by difficult terrain?

Their type of model is INFANTRY because neither the FAQ nor the Codex say you are jump infantry models--GW was quite explicit about this, with a big fat 'NO'.

I don't know why, but there it is.

Finally, an actual rational post. Thank you, Stelek.

Stelek wrote:Jump Infantry is a term, and you can see how it relates to the Chaos Winged wargear by the 'or equivalent' sentence.

The 'or equivalent' doesn't refer to Chaos Wings, because that rules section is talking specifically about Jump Infantry, which we've already established that a model with wings is not.

The 'or equivalent' is refering to things like Hawk Wings. It's there to explain that Jump Infantry benefit from these rules whether their flight is a result of a piece of equipment specifically called a 'Jump Pack' or from some other piece of equipment that does the same job.

A Jump Infantry Model HAS the 'Jump Infantry' unit type.

As stated in the FAQ, 'Winged' does not change your unit type.

Wings don't need to change the unit type. The Jump Infantry section refers to Jump Infantry models because it is the section that contains the rules specific to Jump Infantry.

Wings dont change the unit type... but they do cause the model to follow the same rules. So, as far as the Jump Infantry movement rules are concerned, (but only so far as the JI movement rules are concerned) the model counts as a Jump Infantry model.

Stelek wrote:Thanks.

I wonder if you see the point then?

I'm guessing not.

Jump Infantry is a term, and you can see how it relates to the Chaos Winged wargear by the 'or equivalent' sentence.

Remember that Jump Infantry models are in fact those Jump Infantry with the Jump Infantry 'type' (just as Artillery, Beasts, Cavalry, Infantry, Bikes, Jet Packs, Jetbikes, and Monstrous Creatures are all defined).

Next sentence.

This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry.

Next sentence.

When using jump packs they can move over other models and all terrain freely.

Don't forget GW has explicitly stated 'or equivalent' and do not need to say this again.

Next sentence.

So, NOW does it say 'Jump Infantry' or 'Jump Infantry Model'?

A Jump Infantry Model HAS the 'Jump Infantry' unit type.

As stated in the FAQ, 'Winged' does not change your unit type.

Why are Winged models affected by difficult terrain?

Their type of model is INFANTRY because neither the FAQ nor the Codex say you are jump infantry models--GW was quite explicit about this, with a big fat 'NO'.

I don't know why, but there it is.

your entire basis on the argument was because they added the word model... which may i add was only added to maintain proper English and grammar skills.

"However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it must take a difficult terrain test." -Proper English

"However, if a moving jump infantry begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it must take a difficult terrain test." - Incorrect English grammar

Sigh. Until GW says 'YES', they will never follow the rules for Jump Pack models. They move 12", and that's it. So far all you keep saying is "I SAY IT ISN'T AND IT ISN'T!".

I like especially how you say 'I choose to know the mind of GW, and reveal unto thee that they did not mean 'Wings' when they wrote 'or equivalent ' indeed they really meant 'what I say they mean as long as it does not agree with you'.

Congrats. Now I won't even click 'show this post'.

RedLives, here is another version.

"However, if jump infantry models begin or end their move in difficult terrain they must take a difficult terrain test."

Nice try with the semantic red herring though.

Total waste of time.

... was I just attacked for semantics by the king of semantics?
Isn't the fact that the wording of "However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it must take a difficult terrain test." is justification that chaos models with wings don't follow this rule, the definition of semantics?! Simply because of the slight change it sentence structure because it was written by someone who knows English as a 2ond language.

The entire Jump Infantry rules section is written in reference to "Jump Infantry" or "Jump Infantry model" because that is the unit type the rules are for.

There is no difference between the two terms. Saying "Jump Infantry" is exactly the same thing as saying "Jump Infantry model".

There is no situation where a reference for "Jump Infantry" isn't referencing a "model" as well. Only models can be Jump Infantry.

There is no situation where a "Jump Infantry model" is not also "Jump Infantry."


They are just two ways of writing the exact same thing.



It does not matter what term they use to describe Jump Infantry in the Jump Infantry section of the rules.

The only thing that matters is that we have a collection of rules that describe how Jump Infantry function. If a model "moves as Jump Infantry" you have to look at the Jump Infantry section and any (and all) rules that dictate how Jump Infantry move must be followed.

Doesn't matter what the rules say, eh?

Another 'I say it is so IT IS' argument.

The fact that GW said NO makes no sense unless the rules as written (and as I've explained countless times and not been refuted so far) mean what I have pointed out they do.

Use of bold and italics doesn't make what I say any more compelling when you are not emphasizing a fact, you are merely highlighting your opinion. I like how you make broad statements that are not factual.

There is no situation where a "Jump Infantry model" is not also "Jump Infantry."

Says who? You?

Why don't you ask GW why they said 'No' then?

Specifically, a fact they did state:

Q: Does taking 'Wings' classify a model as jump infantry?

A: No, it simply allows the model to move like jump infantry.

What possible effect could there be in the game other than Chaos models with Wings don't take tests for entering difficult terrain?

If you can get an explanation (or conjure one up), great.

Since l don't wanna get banned, I'll shut up now.

This argument is dumb, stelek can't come up with reasonable justification on why he believes he is correct. His entire basis is because it referenced jump infantry SLIGHTLY different. Just lock the thread, and stop this foolishness.

I've said it how many times?

6? 7?

Not one of you has quoted the rules.

Your opinion is nice, but that's all it is.

Maybe I should PM my arguments in this forum to others so they can get the point across without getting trash canned.

Stelek wrote:I've said it how many times?

6? 7?

Not one of you has quoted the rules.

Your opinion is nice, but that's all it is.

Maybe I should PM my arguments in this forum to others so they can get the point across without getting trash canned.

HEY I TAKE OFFENSE TO THAT!!!! I QUOTED THE RULES!!!

Oops you got me.

I'll rephrase:

You (you specifically) did not quote a rule that contradicted what I said, it just reinforced it.

How's that?

Under your line of logic:
p 52
"Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equilivent) and move 12" in the movement phase."

models with wings can't move 12" because they are not jump infantry. Since it was already stated:

GW website
"Q. Does taking 'Wings' classify a model as jump infantry?
A. No, it simply allows the model to move like jump infantry."

1. since they are NOT jump infantry they can't move 12"

2. they *can* land on impassable terrain, since they aren't 'really' JI models.

3. Since they are *not* jump infantry... .the can't ignore models and terrain.

"Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equilivent) and move 12" in the movement phase. This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish. When using jump packs they can move over other models and all terrain freely. However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it mus take a difficult terrain test."

Since you don't want to follow that whole paragraph about JUMP INFANTRY MOVEMENT fine models with wings don't follow any of it, now you have a pointless upgrade, happy now?

Moving as is something I explained. Read all my posts again.

Counting as is something I explained. Read all my posts again.

Someday, someone will not create their own view and pass it off as rules but instead use the actual rules as I have and prove me wrong.

Or just give up and realize GW makes flawed rules and this is one of them.

It's a shocker, I know. GW made a bad call.

Stelek wrote:
Someday, someone will not create their own view and pass it off as rules .

Anyone else find this funny? Because i can't stop laughing.

Stelek wrote:

There is no situation where a "Jump Infantry model" is not also "Jump Infantry."

Says who? You?

Why don't you ask GW why they said 'No' then?

Specifically, a fact they did state:

Q: Does taking 'Wings' classify a model as jump infantry?

A: No, it simply allows the model to move like jump infantry.

What possible effect could there be in the game other than Chaos models with Wings don't take tests for entering difficult terrain?

If you can get an explanation (or conjure one up), great.

Since l don't wanna get banned, I'll shut up now.

Stelek:

I am not saying that a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry is the same as a "Jump Infantry" model, so I don't know why you are attempting to claim that I am.

For example, a Jump Infantry model cannot embark on a transport while a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry could. Also if a mission rule prevented Jump Infantry from deploying, again it would not apply to a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry.


However, there is absolutely no difference from a rules perspective of saying "Jump Infantry" and "Jump Infantry model" as those two terms mean exactly the same thing.

P1. All "Jump Infantry" are models.
P2. All "Jump Infantry models" are also "Jump Infantry".

C. "Jump Infantry" means the same thing as "Jump Infantry model".


So I am simply trying to point out that you cannot claim that the use of these two different terms throughout the Jump Infantry rules somehow means two different things (because it doesn't).



But back to the real bone of contention:

"However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test."


We agree that this applies to Jump Infantry models. However, a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry must follow all the rules for moving like Jump Infantry (again I hope we can agree on that).

So the only question we have to answer is:

Is the rule quoted above a movement rule or not? If it is, then it must apply to models that "move like" Jump Infantry.


The fact is, the rules is found in the "Movement" section of the Jump Infantry rules and it seems to clearly (to me) be a test that has to be taken depending on how a Jump Infantry model moves. All it is saying is:

If the Jump Infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it must take a dangerous terrain test. If not, it does not have to take said test.

If that is not a rule defining how exactly a Jump Infantry models is allowed/not allowed to move, then I don't know what is.


And if you can agree that the rule is indeed a rule governing the movement of Jump Infantry models then there is absolutely no way to claim that such a rule would not apply to a model that moves like Jump Infantry.

Stelek wrote:Sigh. Until GW says 'YES', they will never follow the rules for Jump Pack models.

I'm honestly boggled as to how you come to that conclusion.

'Move as Jump Infantry' means 'move as Jump Infantry'

It's not rocket science.

I like especially how you say 'I choose to know the mind of GW, and reveal unto thee that they did not mean 'Wings' when they wrote 'or equivalent '

Er... yes... In a section dealing with Jump Infantry, they refer to Jump Infantry. Handy, that.

Stelek wrote:Doesn't matter what the rules say, eh?

Given that you're the one choosing to apply only half of the rules, that statement is laughable beyond belief.

When the rules say that the model moves like Jump Infantry, you apply the movement rules for Jump Infantry.

Why? Because that's what the rules say.

What the rules don't say is that the model moves like Jump Infantry, except when entering or leaving difficult terrain...

Why don't you ask GW why they said 'No' then?

Specifically, a fact they did state:

Q: Does taking 'Wings' classify a model as jump infantry?
A: No, it simply allows the model to move like jump infantry.

Er... because they wanted the model to move as Jump Infantry without actually counting as Jump Infantry?

What possible effect could there be in the game other than Chaos models with Wings don't take tests for entering difficult terrain?

Already answered earlier in the thread...

Looks like those arguing for the terrain tests are actually arguing that wings makes you jump infantry, so you will follow all those rules. But the FAQ(and wing entry) actually says you dont, you only move as them. Cant see how it can be argued that they are "jump pack models" or whatever, when specifically told they arent.

The only thing is maybe if the difficult terrain test is part of the movement of "jump infantry", but it seems to be under another part of the jump infantry rules.

Wow Kallbrand owned me.

Said all I wanted to say and it in under 50 words.

Damnit. I hate being pwned, especially accidently!

Kallbrand wrote:Looks like those arguing for the terrain tests are actually arguing that wings makes you jump infantry, so you will follow all those rules. But the FAQ(and wing entry) actually says you dont, you only move as them. Cant see how it can be argued that they are "jump pack models" or whatever, when specifically told they arent.

I certainly never implied that winged models follow all the rules for Jump Infantry, just the ones for movement.

The only thing is maybe if the difficult terrain test is part of the movement of "jump infantry", but it seems to be under another part of the jump infantry rules.

What part of the rules does that seem to be under?

It's in the "Movement" section of the Jump Infantry rules. The rule is in direct relation to how Jump Infantry models move. Dangerous terrain tests (in general) are found in the "movement" section of the rulebook.

In what possible way are Jump Infantry taking dangerous terrain tests for moving into/out of terrain *not* part of the movement rules?

That rule doesnt seem to regard how they move though, wich is supposedly the only part of the rule you take into account if you are using "move as".

What would the diffrence be in your mind with "counts as" against "move as", since you seem to imply they are the same in all but name.

yeah,
jolly good arguement you have going on here... seems pretty clear now, you use the Jump infantry Movement rules and that means dangerous terrain tests which is how i've been playing it anyways... but it's not all a waste of time I did learn some thing from all this though my daemon prince can deep strike, and that's cool.

I think you take the dangerous terrain Test.
But it's a Pitty wings don't get you around the dangerous terrain test, it would have been quite fluffy as wings are much more dextrous than jump packs, an I ain't never seen batman get clumped by a tree...

PaniC..

edit: seems people arn't finnished arguing quite yet!

Kallbrand wrote:Looks like those arguing for the terrain tests are actually arguing that wings makes you jump infantry, so you will follow all those rules. But the FAQ(and wing entry) actually says you dont, you only move as them. Cant see how it can be argued that they are "jump pack models" or whatever, when specifically told they arent.

The only thing is maybe if the difficult terrain test is part of the movement of "jump infantry", but it seems to be under another part of the jump infantry rules.

That's a good way to boil it down, however there is an important caveat. A winged model may move as Jump Infantry, and so I would argue is treated, in all ways and by all rules, as Jump Infantry for the purposes of movement.

Any model that moves is subject to the standard movement rules, and any model that moves as Jump Infantry is subject to the rules for how Jump Infantry work. A model with wings that begins in difficult terrain is bound by the rules for difficult terrain, which is normally 2d6 pick the highest. A Jump Infantry model, of course, can always move 12", but must make dangerous terrain tests.

I think the key phrase is how the rules for wings is worded. "Models... with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry, as described..." If the rule had been "move as if they were jump infantry," then I think there would be some debate. Stating "move in the same way as Jump Infantry" means that all movement rules for Jump Infantry apply. How does Jump Infantry move? It can move 12", ignore terrain, takes dangerous terrain tests, etc.

Yes, the rule does say that only a moving JI model, not a model moving as JI takes the test. to argue that a winged model is not bound by this would require tailoring a definition of "move in the same way as JI" that somehow includes faster movement but does not include how to handle difficult terrain. Yes, it's a gap in the rules, and there's a decent RAW argument to be made there, but it's not clear, as to think that a winged model ignores all terrain penalties requires reading the Winged rule grants a status, but can ignore aspects of that status. It also requires reading the rules for dangerous tests narrowly, as "models with the Jump Infantry status", not "Models that move as Jump Infantry."

In short, I would simply argue that the Winged rule allows a model to use the movement rules for Jump Infantry, and that includes things that only affect "jump infantry," even if they're still infantry. Clearly most folks have made up their mind, and it's obviously close, but IMO the larger context of the movement rules means they are subject to all movement rules.