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Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

Aha rubbish. his unit easily interperates to a unit he is attached to.

As in : Hes in a unit. You look at the rule and read 'His unit' . . . . . What else can you come to? His own two units, below the belt, have feel no pain? Corr.. Orky!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
Made in be
Regular Dakkanaut




Razerous wrote:nostromo.. if this make-believe ORK GROBBER NOBZ came with the FNP, the warboos would not gain FNP (Due to p48 of the BRB).

- reguardless of the lack of an *

Im still sticking by my point but I dont see what yours is.

My point crashed & burned by a wellplaced shot of page 48, the first paragraph after the list of bulletpoints.
It looked relevant at the time but has no impact nor creates any contradictions with the IC section.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/10 21:18:50


"ANY" includes the special ones 
   
Made in de
Dominating Dominatrix






Piercing the heavens

I think this is something I'll have to work out with my gaming group. I can see why special rules normally can't be tranferred to another unit, but sounds like one of the few times where it would make sense.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Not to throw a monkey wrench into things (as I feel it can be read either way). But please look at the first paragraph on page 49, second sentence, 4th line.

"Independant Characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit..."

also similarly stated in the assault section, same page, end of the first sentence of the second paragraph of Independent Characters & Assaults.

so if the painboy confers FNP to his unit, and the warboss is part of the unit, then wouldnt he get it.

I can follow that if they naturally got FNP, like a plague marine, that he wouldnt get it, but the wording is that the painboy gives it to his unit.


Just a thought for discussion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/10 21:21:49


   
Made in us
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot



Whitebear lake Minnesota.

Good point fraustdemon.

Now heres a little info that is pointless to the post so sorry but it must be said.

Any and all who use the term BRB your posts are very wrong, because its the BGB so there for your telling us to look in the wrong book this isnt warhammer fantasy people.

Either way i really dont care im board at work. and everyone has really good points in this post.

2500-3000pts
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750pts

2500pts Bretonnians 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins






Scranton

Moz wrote:
coredump wrote:The fact that FNP is a USR isn't even relevant really. It could be any "special Rule", it does not have to be a Universal Special Rule.

actually it references the FNP ability which doesn't exist so they by raw shouldn't have it at all

If the wargear let the unit move one extra inch each turn, it would not apply to the IC unless it specifically said it did.


And likewise an IC doesn't grant rules to a unit unless it specifically says it does. So Mad Dok doesn't grant FNP to a unit he joins, or Khan doesn't grant hit and run + furious charge to a unit he joins? This line of reasoning breaks a couple of well known models doesn't it?

I would agree by raw. Mad dok can't use his ability on any unit he joins. AND YES it does break a few well known models... see below



Let's use you're argument against you.
I will reference SNIKROT:

1) Snikrot gives his unit the "ambush ability."
Ambush reads "Snikrot and his unit may be held in reserve. When snikrot and his unit are available they may move on from any table edge."
2) You can join an IC to a unit while it is in reserve.
3) If you join Ghazzie to the Snikrot using the warboss joining the nobz mob argument, ghazzie can come on from any table edge.
This would break a well known model

See where I am going with this? Most players would agree you can not do this. In the same light the warboss joining the unit should not be able to benefit from the FNP.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/10 22:28:55


 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




An IC is a part of the unit he is with. He is part of the unit for movement, shooting, and cc ( but may be picked out ) purposes.

You shoot at the squad and the IC can be effected. The IC moves at the slowest speed of the unit. The IC tests for morale checks with it's unit.

He does not however gain the benefit of a special rule that his unit has, as Yakface has pointed out for us, ( pg 48 of the rulebook ). So I do not need to explain this any further as pgs 48 and 74 tell us all we need to know.

However,

He can still be effected by a units special rule in some cases even though he does not have that rule himself. For example if a Big Mek, without Mega Armour, were joined to a unit of Mega Nobz. He would have to move at the speed of his unit, as if he were in difficult terrain, because the rest of his unit is slow and purposeful ( similar to what coredump mentioned with his unit moving 7" ).

This still would not make him wear Mega Armour or have any of the benefits eg: relentless / slow and purposeful. This is due to the rule on pg 48.




"piece of wargear"
I'd be careful using that term nowadays. A lot of the old 'wargear' is now 'options'. It does still exist, but not in the Ork codex.

40k rulebook pg 28: " Look to your wargear!"
Middle: " I can't it's 5th!"

Wargear does however bring me to think of another point. What I am going to call 'Dark Age' codecies do still however use the old wargear system so: IG Officers can benefit from their units medi-pack. Go Go Guard!

Medics are skilled.
Painboyz have a hobby.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/10 22:29:19


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






on board Terminus Est

This is classic YMDC. You just have to love it.

G

ALL HAIL SANGUINIUS! No one can beat my Wu Tang style!

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com <- My 40k Blog! BA Tactics & Strategies!
 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




I think this one is an obvious loop hole that GW missed. Where you can see where it is supposed to be implemented (apothecary to commander, or Chaplain fearless/re-roll to IC with squad) and others which don't make sense (Chaos Icon to IC or, like you said, snikrots ability to a Warboss)

This totally reminds me of 4th editions RAW discussion about rapid fire weapons, where by RAW if you had one, and fired a pistol, you could not assault (until it was FAQ'd of course).

DA 3rd Co. w/duelwing 6000+ pts
Mostly tanks 2000+ pts
Ultras 3rd Co and 1st Co. 7000+ pts
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Made in us
Confessor Of Sins






Scranton

padixon wrote:I think this one is an obvious loop hole that GW missed. Where you can see where it is supposed to be implemented (apothecary to commander, or Chaplain fearless/re-roll to IC with squad) and others which don't make sense (Chaos Icon to IC or, like you said, snikrots ability to a Warboss)

This totally reminds me of 4th editions RAW discussion about rapid fire weapons, where by RAW if you had one, and fired a pistol, you could not assault (until it was FAQ'd of course).


I agree. But to clear things up, Mad docs rules do NOT say he gives FNP to the unit he joins. He gives the other rule to them ;p

 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

Ahhh - well the 40k rulebook has red on it. P.0

@Frgsin = You make a good point but thats why infiltrate has that * next to it. This ability is very like infiltrate so id suggest the reason why is looks/feels so broken is the same reason why GW added that * to infiltrate. --- And what other rules does Mad doc give then?

Your point highlights an issue with that particular special rule but in my mind its similiar enough to infiltrate for it not to be relevant to the topics FNP rant. Although Im not saying you cudnt do what you proposed.

& Thanks fraustdemon, I forgot to mention that point but yea, IC counts as part of the unit (thus 'his unit' applies to everyone - legaility permitting)


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
Made in us
Widowmaker






Syracuse, NY

Good find on the snikrot entry froggy. What this does is shows that both ways are played wrong on either side of the spectrum (one way or the other), the painboy giving FNP to an IC is just close enough to the center for us to argue about it.

Blech!


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

OTOH, if an Inquisitor joins a Marine Command Squad with an Apothecary...

   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins






Scranton

Razerous wrote:Ahhh - well the 40k rulebook has red on it. P.0

@Frgsin = You make a good point but thats why infiltrate has that * next to it. This ability is very like infiltrate so id suggest the reason why is looks/feels so broken is the same reason why GW added that * to infiltrate. --- And what other rules does Mad doc give then?

Your point highlights an issue with that particular special rule but in my mind its similiar enough to infiltrate for it not to be relevant to the topics FNP rant. Although Im not saying you cudnt do what you proposed.

& Thanks fraustdemon, I forgot to mention that point but yea, IC counts as part of the unit (thus 'his unit' applies to everyone - legaility permitting)



Snikrots ability is not infiltrate he has his own special rule they follow instead of outflanking.

Moz wrote:Good find on the snikrot entry froggy. What this does is shows that both ways are played wrong on either side of the spectrum (one way or the other), the painboy giving FNP to an IC is just close enough to the center for us to argue about it.

Blech!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/12/11 02:54:48


 
   
Made in de
Dominating Dominatrix






Piercing the heavens

Also, Snikrot is not an IC, but a unit upgrade which can be taken instead of a Nob.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins






Scranton

Anung Un Rama wrote:Also, Snikrot is not an IC, but a unit upgrade which can be taken instead of a Nob.


YES we know

please read this again. Snikrot, like a pain boy is a Unit upgrade.

They give their unit an ability.

ICs joining the unit should not gain the ability.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/11 12:24:33


 
   
Made in de
Average Orc Boy





Well, that Snikkrot arguement is flawed or simply wrong.
Infiltrate is marked with a * so this rule cant be transferred to a Warboss joining that unit. So we wont see a flanking Ghazzie

There are some other examples we could get on. Take S&P for example. The rulebook says the units moves with the with the speed of the slowest one but on page 48 it says USRs cant be trasferred from a unit to an IC and vice versa. So what should I take when I add Ghazz to a mob of Nobz or a Warboss to a mob of MANz? Should I take the movement rule or argue that the S&P rule cant be transferred? Personally I think that´s a studpid question and the whole unit is slow&purposeful but there is room to argue against though.

The thing with the Waaagh! Banner is easy imo. An IC counts as an IC during the close combat so no IC will be affected from a Waaagh! Banner.
The Grotsnik thingy is a bit hum, well difficult imho. Page 49 says, during the close combat phase an IC isnt part of the attached unit. It will be part of the unit after every attack is rolled out. That would mean, you cant use Grotsniks FNP rule because he isnt part of his unit as long as the close combat goes. On the other hand the Ork dex says Grotsnik cant leave his unit until he´s the last unit in the attached unit. And because Dex > BGB the close combat rule for ICs in the BGB doesnt count for Grotsnik.
This YMDK Sub makes my brain melting.

You see the morbid horror flicker in my eyes But rest assured, Im gonna help to ease your pain.
I'm gonna put a thousand tiny implants in your brain
I'm your boy, I'll make you undulate with joy
Cos I'm the Doctor  
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins






Scranton

DaDok wrote:Well, that Snikkrot arguement is flawed or simply wrong.
Infiltrate is marked with a * so this rule cant be transferred to a Warboss joining that unit. So we wont see a flanking Ghazzie

There are some other examples we could get on. Take S&P for example. The rulebook says the units moves with the with the speed of the slowest one but on page 48 it says USRs cant be trasferred from a unit to an IC and vice versa. So what should I take when I add Ghazz to a mob of Nobz or a Warboss to a mob of MANz? Should I take the movement rule or argue that the S&P rule cant be transferred? Personally I think that´s a studpid question and the whole unit is slow&purposeful but there is room to argue against though.

The thing with the Waaagh! Banner is easy imo. An IC counts as an IC during the close combat so no IC will be affected from a Waaagh! Banner.
The Grotsnik thingy is a bit hum, well difficult imho. Page 49 says, during the close combat phase an IC isnt part of the attached unit. It will be part of the unit after every attack is rolled out. That would mean, you cant use Grotsniks FNP rule because he isnt part of his unit as long as the close combat goes. On the other hand the Ork dex says Grotsnik cant leave his unit until he´s the last unit in the attached unit. And because Dex > BGB the close combat rule for ICs in the BGB doesnt count for Grotsnik.
This YMDK Sub makes my brain melting.


REREAD THE * again slowly and carefully.

it says the ability is lost automatically BY BOTH. This means that the ENTIRE UNIT AND IC lose the ability.

The Rules for ICs joining state one only ONE would not benefit.

ALSO
INFILTRATE is DIFFERENT than the ambush ability.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/12/11 13:26:38


 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

Point is, its only different in the ork handbook

- like in my previous post i mentioned that its very similiar to infiltrate ( Hey or Scouts, due to the flanking type of entry - take ur pick).

Both of these skills have an *


They have it for a reason. The ork codex snikkrot special rule isnt directly linked to the BGB and gets left out but with the way those above two work & thier restrictions id say its totally irrelevant to the warboss FNP rule.

The fact on its own thats its a specail rule with no direct linking to the USR's is enough to leave it outta this FNP debate. The FNP isnt a * so it gets confered to the entire unit.

The warboss counts as a seperate unit when making/taking attacks but in combat resolution (am I right here?) they then become one again.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins






Scranton

Razerous wrote:Point is, its only different in the ork handbook

- like in my previous post i mentioned that its very similiar to infiltrate ( Hey or Scouts, due to the flanking type of entry - take ur pick).

Both of these skills have an *


They have it for a reason. The ork codex snikkrot special rule isnt directly linked to the BGB and gets left out but with the way those above two work & thier restrictions id say its totally irrelevant to the warboss FNP rule.

The fact on its own thats its a specail rule with no direct linking to the USR's is enough to leave it outta this FNP debate. The FNP isnt a * so it gets confered to the entire unit.

The warboss counts as a seperate unit when making/taking attacks but in combat resolution (am I right here?) they then become one again.


Please read the post of mine above yours about the * debate.

I will repost it for you.

REREAD THE * again slowly and carefully.

the * by the ability says the ability is lost automatically BY BOTH. This means that the ENTIRE UNIT AND IC lose the ability.

The Rules for ICs joining state are different. The state that only ONE would not benefit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/11 16:13:16


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins






Scranton

frgsinwntr wrote:
Razerous wrote:Point is, its only different in the ork handbook

- like in my previous post i mentioned that its very similiar to infiltrate ( Hey or Scouts, due to the flanking type of entry - take ur pick).

Both of these skills have an *


They have it for a reason. The ork codex snikkrot special rule isnt directly linked to the BGB and gets left out but with the way those above two work & thier restrictions id say its totally irrelevant to the warboss FNP rule.

The fact on its own thats its a specail rule with no direct linking to the USR's is enough to leave it outta this FNP debate. The FNP isnt a * so it gets confered to the entire unit.

The warboss counts as a seperate unit when making/taking attacks but in combat resolution (am I right here?) they then become one again.


Please read the post of mine above yours about the * debate.

I will repost it for you.

REREAD THE * again slowly and carefully.

the * by the ability says the ability is lost automatically BY BOTH. This means that the ENTIRE UNIT AND IC lose the ability.

The Rules for ICs joining state are different. The state that only ONE would not benefit.


The ways the rules are written these do NOT contradict each other. Follow my flow chart.

Is the ability marked by an asterisk (*).
YES- Neither get the ability. Stop here
NO- continue on

Is the ability an IC ability/special rule the unit does not have?
Yes- Only the IC that had the ability before they are joined benefits. Stop here
No- continue on

Is the ability one the Unit possess before the IC joins but not one the IC himself has?
Yes- Only the Unit benefits, not the IC. Stop here
No- continue on

Do both the unit and the IC have the ability?
yes - Both get it. Stop here
No - go back and check the above you missed something.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/11 21:07:39


 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

Whats your point? I understand and have read both the bits about IC joining and the * bit about rules..

In the first bit, 'unless specified in the rule itself'

FNP - (Codex application of FNP take prescendence) In the orky dex mad doc description is says it gives FNP to the unit.

Due to the rules (back in the BGB) on IC joining and then counting as part of that unit then therefor allow the IC to gain the orky version of FNP..

(Sorry for repeating myself)

As for Snikkrot.. his ability isnt listed in the USR but is very similiar to scouts and/or infiltrate. And those two do have * (as they are intended to not allow IC gaining those types of abilities) - thus irrelevant to the FNP discussion as FNP isnt an * rule.

Where are you coming from Frgsin?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle







People citing p. 49 are pulling the line out of context. The full quote is "Independent characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit and so may not be picked out as targets". That rule is purely for use in the context of that phase and has nothing to do with special rules.

The full rules for handling ICs joined to a unit is contained in a nice full-page box on p. 48. There is a nice section titled "Special Rules" which tells you all you need to know about how to handle special rules that are not shared between the IC and the joined unit. "Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the ‘stubborn’ special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit." Please note that this doesn't specify that this applies to USRs only or whether they are granted by gear or are inherent.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/11 18:26:27


MAKE OF THIS WHAT YOU WILL, FOR YOU WILL BE MINE IN THE END NO MATTER WHAT! 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

For the orky doc, it all boils down to if you concider the IC as part of the unit or not. For virtually every other rule, its explained in thier own dexes (Eldar exarch abilites) or in the BGB.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





utan wrote:People citing p. 49 are pulling the line out of context. The full quote is "Independent characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit and so may not be picked out as targets". That rule is purely for use in the context of that phase and has nothing to do with special rules.


I can buy that, even though it is 2 sentences. (the first part inserted to better explain the second) However, Pg 48 shows in the 2nd column, bullet 2: "While an independent character is part of a unit, he..."

This shows that the IC is part of the unit, in all three sections he's part of the unit, in all three sections it says he's part of the unit.

It's going to be one of those things that needs to be agreed upon before the game (or when GW decides to rule on it).

It can still be viewed the way Yak explained (dont get me wrong, Yak does a bang up job), or that the wording confers FNP to the whole unit (including the IC) because it's not a unit special rule per say.
   
Made in de
Average Orc Boy





But it would just matter for incoming bullets/projectiles and such stuff eh?
Because during the close combat ICs dont count as a part of the unit they´ve joined before.
So there´s no way an IC could use stuff like FNP during a close combat clash. Except ICs like Grotsnik - maybe - who cant be detached per special rule of the IC itself.
That´s something to discuss as well or at least I would like to see it.
It doesnt matter if a unit like a Warboss can be affected by FNP because:

1) Incoming fire = the owner of the unit can choose which models are affected by the incoming fire. So he can allways ignore the IC and get FNP for the Nobz
2) During close combat the WB doesnt count as part of the unit he´s attached to so no way he can benefit from FNP because he counts as a solo fighting IC.

So we are left with ICs like Grotsnik - for Orkz - who provide FNP to the unit they´re attached to or not and that´s the question I would say.
It´s a bit iffy that a Nobz Dok cant provide FNP to an IC but that´s how the rules are written down eh? At least during close combat and - as said - during shooting phase FNP or not doesnt matter for the IC except he can be targeted by special attacks.

You see the morbid horror flicker in my eyes But rest assured, Im gonna help to ease your pain.
I'm gonna put a thousand tiny implants in your brain
I'm your boy, I'll make you undulate with joy
Cos I'm the Doctor  
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins






Scranton

DaDok wrote:
So we are left with ICs like Grotsnik - for Orkz - who provide FNP to the unit they´re attached to or not and that´s the question I would say.
It´s a bit iffy that a Nobz Dok cant provide FNP to an IC but that´s how the rules are written down eh? At least during close combat and - as said - during shooting phase FNP or not doesnt matter for the IC except he can be targeted by special attacks.


ACTUALLY. By the Rules Grotsnik does NOT conver FNP to the unit he joins. Only he gets it. His rules that are confered to the unit is the "must move towards in the enemy at all times" and "fearless" thing. PLease Read this.

He is an IC can as such has the FNP but when he joins the unit, he keeps feel no pain, but the unit does not get it. RAW

I know someone will post and disagree with me and that person who ever they are has not read/reread mad docs rules

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/11 21:12:41


 
   
Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon





So... if a Farseer Fortunes the unit he is with, he does not benefit from it?

Homer

The only "hobby" GW is interested in is lining their pockets with your money.
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins






Scranton

Homer S wrote:So... if a Farseer Fortunes the unit he is with, he does not benefit from it?
Homer


Fortune is not a special rule the unit has BEFORE the character joins. It is a psychic power that affects the unit after he is part of it. This is a seperate issue and yes he benefits.

 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




He is an IC can as such has the FNP but when he joins the unit, he keeps feel no pain, but the unit does not get it. RAW

I know someone will post and disagree with me and that person who ever they are has not read the mad docs rules


Mad Doc Grotsnik comes with Dok's tools as part of his wargear.

Dok's tools: "...he confers Feel no Pain ability to his unit"

So, how exactly does Grotsnik not give FnP *to his unit* ^
l

but you are right, he does not possess any FnP at all, and if you want to agree with some of these crazy posters than he would not gain FnP because he is *not* the unit he gives it too and so does not gain FnP because he would obviously (sarcasm) not gain the units special ability.

So in short

Dok by himself has FnP, because he is a unit of himself and grants himself FnP
Dok in a mob gives FnP to mob and in so doing gives them the FnP special rule and sense he is an IC, then losses said ability that he just gave and would have had, had he not joined the unit.

That is what this boils down too.

Posters *believe* if a unit gains a special rule from an outside source (Grotsnik, painboy) then that rule cannot extend to any IC.

silly

sorry to edit here but I had to throw some more silliness into this thought process some more

2) During close combat the WB doesnt count as part of the unit he´s attached to so no way he can benefit from FNP because he counts as a solo fighting IC.


Going by this logic then, when Grotsnik is in CC, then only he gains FnP because now he is fighting as his own unit (sense he is an IC), and so therefore no longer part of the unit he was with and so the unit would lose FnP during all CC engagements. This is getting good.

again silly.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/12/11 21:39:02


DA 3rd Co. w/duelwing 6000+ pts
Mostly tanks 2000+ pts
Ultras 3rd Co and 1st Co. 7000+ pts
Harald Deathwolf's Co. 7000+ pts
4000+ pts (Daemonhunters)
Kabal of the Hydra 5000+ pts
Skullrippa'z Freebootaz 6000+ pts
Plague Marine Force 2000+ pts
and not finished until I own some of every army
 
   
 
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