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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





JohnHwangDD wrote:So I'm guessing you don't play CCGs like Magic?


You're guessing right, buy, sort, shuffle see what happens, not much sport there. I am filled with petty for the people stuck in the eternal cycle of outdated cards as well, I hear it not even a year anymore before they are illegal. t least the GW minis can get re used when the new rules come out (mostly).

JohnHwangDD wrote:WFB is very low on my interest scale, as my primary army has been sidelined for more than an edition, but I've at least played along when major WFB happenings are going on. But balance in WFB is a real mess compared to 40k. The scope of Special Rules is so much larger and pervasive, that the game feel is totally alien.


Yea I had a Dark Elf army for a couple years, almost every game I played was really polarized, as in win big or loose big, and none of it was clever maneuver or set up either:

Bretonians run my whole army over in 2 turns, lost every melee, didn't even move forward (never did beat that army)...
Orks and Goblins whole army routes from Black Dragon terror (never lost to Orks, not much skill in flying my Terror causer up the side and watching units flee)...
Bolt throwers destroy an entire Dwarf army (they can't even reach me moving the foot speed)...
Unbreakable chaos Daemons destroy my entire army, like an invicible, no morale, flying daemons outflank everything (never did beat them)

..and to make matters worse I got more zero comp scores (mostly for the Black Dragon) than I ever have in 40k, and only when I won...

Maybe I shouldn't have played in tournaments? Well ok so I sold the army and quit.

Anyway, back OT, if thats the direction 40k is going too, I am going to be very sad! Maybe I will have to learn to love Flames of War more...

Ahh well, who knows what the next codex will be?
   
Made in gb
Hardened Veteran Guardsman






near Reading, Berkshire

Is this getting a bit like the "I hate windows but still have to use it because every one else does" debate? How about "open source" rules written by the players themselves (as oposed to the company that makes and sells the models, therefore profitting from the complexity, confusion and endless reinvention) as a kind of wikipedia? Ahh the idealism of the internet...
   
Made in gb
Hardened Veteran Guardsman






near Reading, Berkshire

I miss the old blood angels, maybe I will miss IG doctrines, but the fact remains I am chomping at the bit for my new IG codex and valkyrie.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/04/28 23:18:14


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ahh yes, the curse of fandom...

Once we are far enough long, well, does anyone ever quit?

I will always build the models at least.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

General Mayhem wrote:How about "open source" rules

OK, who is going to manage the project, and how are you going to get people to agree on particular rules?

For example, the Guard players are going demand Overwatch and Charge Reactions, while the Nid players are going to demand extra-fast Running...


   
Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench





Salt Lake City, UT

Mahu wrote:I disagree completely.

Each codex should be making every attempt to define the race with a unique play style. It that involves giving races abilities that match thier fluff, then so be it.

5th edition played with 5th edition codexes is the best version of 40k by far in terms of theme, list variation, and race specific tactics. Orks play like Orks, Deamons play like Deamons and Marines play like Marines.

The way I view it is the codexes are just as important as the core rulebook in considering the system, and exceptions to rules have been in the game since the beginning.

Agreed. Having every army play the same will make for a very boring game. The codices are meant to "break" the rules in special ways unique to each army.

Also, in response to a comment about Eternal Warrior: very few SM units have said ability. Nothing is more irritating than a force weapon or something eating your HQ, and not being able to do it in return.
   
Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





USRs don't make all the armies the same. They make some subset of rules for a unit the same.
   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







USR's are a good thing. Sadly, the way GW has done it has made them seem like a bad thing, because they do not update the Old Codex's at the same time, which has lead to the "My Smoke Launchers are Better than your smoke Launchers" shenanigans that make up 5th ed 40k. Once GW their their thumbs out and update all the legacy codex's to 5th edition, THEN they can work on updating the 5th Rulebook, because lets face it, Quite a bit of the rulebook is clunky because it has to accommodate for the old codex's.

Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
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Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench





Salt Lake City, UT

Cruentus wrote:
Necros wrote:Good point but I always thought the whole idea of a codex was to give armies special rules. So you have your "standard" ruleset, and then each army has their own strenghts and weaknesses and special things they can do. If other armies could issue orders, what would be special about guard? or what if everyone army have drop pods and break into combat squads?


But see, I don't understand this extremist logic. No one is saying that everyone gets to have every rule in the BRB. If "combat squads" is a USR. When the marine book is out, their squads are given that USR as an army rule. If GW then decides that the hyper-trained =I= Stormtroopers (and only them), should also be able to combat squad, then that squad entry can be given the USR. Without creating some backward description of how it works that makes it different than marines (or anyone else).

The differences in the army books (which I'm still advocating), would be in troops types - gee, IG grunts versus Necron Warriors - they seem different. Weapons they use, wargear, vehicles, etc. Rules that should be (or could be) similar across books should be USRs. I.e. Deep Strike, Poison, FNP, the jump back out of combat one (mind-lock atm), ATSKNF, etc. If you want to give an army deep strike, don't have three versions of it, two which contradict how it works in the BRB. Have one Deep Strike USR. Then have another USR, available for other units if necessary, that allows you to do something different, i.e. assault off Deep Strike. Don't write another Deep Strike rule and call it something else.

Could the list of USRs be long? Possibly. But it also wouldn't prevent differences in army builds, army lists, units themselves. It also makes it easier to "balance" long-term. If you know everyone (termies, daemons, PAGK, etc.) are all Deep Striking, you know what it does. If you add assault to the Daemons. You know its a little better.


I just re-read this, and agree with it completely.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Gwar! wrote:Once GW their their thumbs out and update all the legacy codex's to 5th edition, THEN they can work on updating the 5th Rulebook, because lets face it, Quite a bit of the rulebook is clunky because it has to accommodate for the old codex's.

I don't think GW should have the Rulebook held hostage by a handful of obsolete Codices. The Codices can be FAQd or updated or Squatted, because these affect relatively few people, whereas the Rulebook affects everyone.

And that's the very point - GW doesn't accomodate the older Codices, which is why they don't work as well under the current Rulebook. But the newer Codices (which cover most of the player base) are generally fine. Yes, Lash is a problem, but that doesn't invalidate the Rulebook, nor the Codex.

   
Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





If GW doesn't accommodate the old codexes, why are they still allowed to overrule the main rulebook? That's a large part of the problem. In that scenario the USRs are meaningless, because they aren't *universal*.

The Codex should say "unit A has USRs 1,2,3, see the main rulebook for info". Then codexes become mostly an exercise in tweaking points, adding new background and pics of shiny models.

Sadly, they don't do this now, they just keep piling the cruft on with their exceptions.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Perhaps we use "accomodate" differently?

I'm using it to mean that GW isn't crafting specific things to handle rules oddities in older Codices.

   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







Apart from one major thing, that of the "If you have Scout your Dedicated Transport gets scout" that was crafted EXCLUSIVELY for pathfinders.

Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

I don't play Tau, so I woudln't know.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Dal'yth Dude wrote:If GW doesn't accommodate the old codexes, why are they still allowed to overrule the main rulebook? That's a large part of the problem. In that scenario the USRs are meaningless, because they aren't *universal*.

The Codex should say "unit A has USRs 1,2,3, see the main rulebook for info". Then codexes become mostly an exercise in tweaking points, adding new background and pics of shiny models.

Sadly, they don't do this now, they just keep piling the cruft on with their exceptions.

Precisely.

EDIT:

This is why I said 6th edition is already being crafted. Essentially they are laying the groundwork for these new USRs, like poison weapons as a good example, and combat squads and orders and interecept reserves and demonic assault....

All that stuff should be in the BGB is my gripe at it's core!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/04/29 21:02:29


 
   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel




HI all.
Whats wrong with the common practice of putting ALL the rules in the 'RULE BOOK'.
Make sure the rules cover ALL the factions/options in the game play effectivley.

Then the army composition lists (codex books,) dont have confusing poorly applied -defined additional rules and exceptions that confuse every one.(Including the game developers.)

Why use superflous 'special rules' , when more straight forward rules set,would enhance the game play experiance?
(And BTW, USRs are just rules that were originaly left out by mistake!)

Unless Special Rules influence minature sales in a positive way?They just increase the difficulty of game play unecisarily.
   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







Ok, firstly, why should I be FORCED to buy the rules for armies I do not want (being a Space Wolf Player I have had to do this for 10 years now), not to mention doing so will drive the cost of the book skyward, and means each race gets less background material and less work put into it.

Oh yeah, it's a fantastic idea </Sarcasm>

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/04/30 17:44:50


Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Gwar! wrote:Ok, firstly, why should I be FORCED to buy the rules for armies I do not want...


Why would you not expecta complete version of the game when you buy the core book?

Perhaps you are engineering some animosity here? Or maybe I missed your sarcastic intent?
   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







No, I am 100% Sincere.
40k is not a Game like Magic where the exceptions to the main rules can be placed on the items in question. The whole way 40k Works is that you have a core set of rules that a modified differently by each army. That is what makes each army unique.

When I buy the main rulebook, I don't want it clogged up with half baked army lists with no fluff. Not to mention, I am never EVER gonna play Tau EVER. Nor do I have any desire to ever play Necrons. Why should I have to pay for their "codex's" when I buy the Core Ruleset? Why should I have to lug about the extra information I will never ever want or need. I would much rather carry my Mini-Rulebook and a Single Codex to a tournament/game rather than a 900 page lummox which I wont use half of, because in the current system, I can always look at my opponents codex if I need to.

But then again, if you WANT to pay £50+ for a book with half written army lists and no decent background, go back and play 3rd edition, they did it then, and as you can see, there is a very good reason why they didn't do it again.

Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

@Gwar:

Actually, some of us liked the 3E gaming with basic lists...

   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







JohnHwangDD wrote:@Gwar:

Actually, some of us liked the 3E gaming with basic lists...
I assume you LARP Dark Eldar yes?

In case that was too subtle:
BDSM JOKE!

Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
Please do not PM me unless really necessary. I much prefer e-mail.
Need it Answered RIGHT NOW!? Ring me on Skype: "gwar.the.trolle"
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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

LARP? Dark Eldar? Nuuuuu....

(run away screaming)

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Gwar! wrote:No, I am 100% Sincere....When I buy the main rulebook, I don't want it clogged up with half baked army lists with no fluff. Not to mention, I am never EVER gonna play Tau EVER.

Sincere about not wanting a complete rule book with USRs for all the codexes? I can't fathom that, I dare say it is narrow minded.

Why should I have to pay for their "codex's" when I buy the Core Ruleset? Why should I have to lug about the extra information I will never ever want or need.

...because you might play against it someday? So you can go to an event or play with someone else and not be surprised. Maybe some other people might want a complete rule set? You don't really think that a shorter rulebook is actually cheaper? Thats ridiculous.
Gwar! wrote:40k is not a Game like Magic where the exceptions to the main rules can be placed on the items in question. The whole way 40k Works is that you have a core set of rules that a modified differently by each army. That is what makes each army unique.


Actually it might be a lot more like magic when each new codex (like a new expansion) can redefine the game with unique exceptions rules, like orders and officer of the fleet. The moving target of 5th edition is irritating, or perhaps you think the Demon Army vs 2 fleet officer controversy is a good situation?

Nor do I have any desire to ever play Demons, but know your enemy.
   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







Augustus wrote:
Gwar! wrote:No, I am 100% Sincere....When I buy the main rulebook, I don't want it clogged up with half baked army lists with no fluff. Not to mention, I am never EVER gonna play Tau EVER.

Sincere about not wanting a complete rule book with USRs for all the codexes? I can't fathom that, I dare say it is narrow minded.
Perhaps you need to go back to grade shool to learn to read. I never said I didnt want a book with all the USR's in it. I said I want it with the core rules, and then codex's that use said USR's along with special rules that make them unique. The only reason we have a sitiuation as we do now of rules with the same name and different effects is because GW take too long in updating their legacy codex's. And as much as GW don't give a toss about the gamers now, they are not so stupid as to turn every army in the game into a homogenised mess that has one or two differences each.

Augustus wrote:
Should I have to pay for their "codex's" when I buy the Core Ruleset? Why should I have to lug about the extra information I will never ever want or need.

...because you might play against it someday? So you can go to an event or play with someone else and not be surprised. Maybe some other people might want a complete rule set? You don't really think that a shorter rulebook is actually cheaper? Thats ridiculous.
Well, of course it is. That's why the AoBR Rulebook is so much cheaper than the Hardback one. But tell me, you honestly think GW are gonna go "Hmm, Lets remove all the codex's that we charge €25 for and put them into the Rulebook, and then charge the same price for the rulebook." No, they will up the cost of the rulebook because you are buying all the codex's with the rulebook. Not to mention that if GW are going to keep the armies unique rather then "Use XYZ Stats with ABC USR's NEXT!" it is going to have to be the size of the current rulebook plus all the codex's that are out now combined. That's close to 1,000 pages if you include the fluff material (Which the Large Rulebook still has after all). You think GW will sell that for £50 or however much the damn thing is these days?

Augustus wrote:
Gwar! wrote:40k is not a Game like Magic where the exceptions to the main rules can be placed on the items in question. The whole way 40k Works is that you have a core set of rules that a modified differently by each army. That is what makes each army unique.

Actually it might be a lot more like magic when each new codex (like a new expansion) can redefine the game with unique exceptions rules, like orders and officer of the fleet. The moving target of 5th edition is irritating, or perhaps you think the Demon Army vs 2 fleet officer controversy is a good situation?

Nor do I have any desire to ever play Demons, but know your enemy.
Well, I am glad to see you have shown yourself to be an utter hypocrite. "Know your enemy" you claim, yet you don't realise that the Dual Officers of the Fleet does nothing but HELP daemons, as it means Less turns for the IG player to shoot at their Troops, which can then claim objectives late on in the game with the IG player having no hope of dislodging them in time.

Perhaps a little of "Practice what you Preach" is in order before you start passing judgement on others is in order, wouldn't you agree?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/05/01 00:35:48


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Gwar!, I don't see how putting all the USRs in the rule book equals putting in every Codex in the rule book.

I think you're saying that the Codexes should have exceptions or modifications to the USRs, which is what many of use are decidedly against.

I also don't understand how a large rulebook with USRs would be anywhere near 1,000 pages. Hyperbole aside, one could just as easily move most of the background material to the Codexes where it belongs. I can see 2 or 3 dozen USRs if GW wanted to include most existing USRs and add some such as "this USR allows the unit to assault after deepstrike" or something similar.
   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







Dal'yth Dude wrote:I think you're saying that the Codexes should have exceptions or modifications to the USRs, which is what many of use are decidedly against.
What? No! I am not against that at all! I like USR's, they make the game run a lot faster. However, USR's are NOT a substitute for individual special rules that give an army its character.

The only problem we have with USR's atm is that there are far too many Individual Special Rules that share a name with a USR, because of GW's lazy Updating Strategy.

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Gwar! wrote:
Dal'yth Dude wrote:I think you're saying that the Codexes should have exceptions or modifications to the USRs, which is what many of use are decidedly against.
What? No! I am not against that at all! I like USR's, they make the game run a lot faster. However, USR's are NOT a substitute for individual special rules that give an army its character.

The only problem we have with USR's atm is that there are far too many Individual Special Rules that share a name with a USR, because of GW's lazy Updating Strategy.


So where exactly do you draw the line at USRs vs "substitute for individual special rules that give an army its character"?
   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







Well, what do you? Should Combat tactics become a USR? Should Litanies of Battle become a USR? Should Lumbering Behemoth become a USR? Should Bladestorm become a USR? Should all Psychic powers become a single Standidised list for all races?

Individual special rules are what make each army its own army. Once GW fixes the legacy codex's and removed the nonsense of conflicting wargears and weapons (already they have taken a step towards that by standardising items common to each army such as Smoke Launchers, Power Fists and a lot of other things) the system will work just fine.

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Gwar! wrote:Well, what do you?

Should Combat tactics become a USR?

Should Litanies of Battle become a USR?

Should Lumbering Behemoth become a USR?

Should Bladestorm become a USR?

Should all Psychic powers become a single Standidised list for all races?

Well, if you look at what the Dev team did for WFB, it's clear that they're getting better (not perfect, of course) at defining army charater and leveraging USRs intelligently.

Combat Tactics? Apparently, this is unique to SM, so probably not.

Litanies are arguable, but again, SM-only, rather than MEQ-wide

Lumbering Behemoth is IG-only, and a single unit entry so, nope.

Bladestorm? See Lumbering Behemoth. Eldar only, for a single unit entry, means no.

Psychic Powers are something that GW did a good job on, actually. In WFB, most Mages shared the same list of spells. It wasn't until 7th that GW got serious about un-sharing spells and giving each race its own unqiue list of spells. It's a good change, in the same way that each WFB army now has its own Ogre-class units.

   
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I'd say make combat tactics, ATSKNF USRs if for no other reason than there are multiple space marine codexes. The Eldar examples (or any other 1 unit only rules) are fine to leave as Codex only.
   
 
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