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<div class="NTForums_Quote">Posted By H.B.M.C. on 03/12/2006 7:52 AM<br>And all those races are essentially 2nd Class Citizens within the Tau Empire. The Tau are not squeaky clean good guys. They're as grey as the rest of 'em.<BR><BR>BYE</div><br><br>


In order to be "good guys" they have to live in an egalitarian society? In order to be a "good guy" you have to be perfect? Would you suggest, for example, that there were no "good guys" in WW2? I mean, you had 3 fascist countries against a mass-murdering communist, an oppressive and racist colonial empire, and a segregated about-to-become-neocolonial-empire. I'd certainly like to think the US and UK were "good guys", despite the fact that they were (and continue to be) far from perfect countries.

Now, I don't mean to get sidetracked onto political tangents, but the point is that you don't have to be a saint to do good. Ensuring the best outcome for the largest number of beings is the Tau way, and there's no evidence to assume they're being duplicitous about it.

In the 41st Millenium there is only war... What does not kill me makes me stronger.

It seems like a philosophical paradox has been created in this post and it's responses. You can only judge for yourselves personally and as the society/culture your interacting with in your lives as to what is considered good and what is considered evil. History, Morals and Ethics are all created by the victors. So we have only ourselves and our knowledge from books and media etc to inform us of our judgements, given to us by the victors.

When you create a fictional (and even a non-fictional) story these factors invariably shine through and affect the author's opinions and creativity in what they are writing about. So considering in the light of the Tau as to whether they are "evil" or "good" is always going to get varying responses based on your own perceptions and influences. That's the heavy stuff out of the way now for the fun stuff

The Tau as a race need to survive, all races and cultures usually do and they have encountered a wide range of other races who either want to eat them, kill them or whatever, it's just not pretty out there for them and inorder for them to survive they need to get stronger, tougher, harder both in mind, body and spirit in a galaxy that they have discovered to be very, very brutal.

I don't blame them (the Ethereals) for wearing black lol it's probably in mourning for the sacrifices the Tau race are making both in personal loss (that includes the loss of a super killing machine and his army i.e. O'Shovah to a rebellion) and in making compromises and adjustments in their morals and ethics etc. Plus it's getting bleak out there and they know it's going to be a tough fight if they are to expand and survive. In some respects the codex has a sacrifice theme to it which reflects a cultural evolutionary shift towards a more grim, harder attitude to a large extent based on the events of their recent history in the stories etc.

Who knows what over time they turn into in their next codex and the next after that, it makes them quite a cool race, they start off reasonably rosy with their erstwhile allies and as they nibble a little bit more of the galaxy's real estate they get viciously slapped all of a sudden and wake up from their dreams of empire, reeling.
There is no respite, no forgiveness...only war. I think the Tau have got the big picture now.

That's a very good point. What we take for granted as stereotypical traits of races has been evolved over about 20 years, and Gee-Dub seem to be making a concerted effort to catch the Tau up (which I'm in favour of; generally, I found the fluff when the first Codex came out sucky). They sort of shot themselves in the foot with the Necrons, who they've tried to shoehorn into other race's story lines.

I look forward to the Tau becoming sceptical of their own moral codes (cloning, subjugation, &c)

It'll be interesting to see what happens to the Tau if they succeed in the summer campaign and develop warp technology. That could be a real wake up call.  Welcome to the Warp. There are gods, and they are crazy and evil. Try to maintain your positive outlook now.

Warp gods? Mere hallucinations of fanatical gue'la and fanciful Eldar.

MattBaby: Looks like you're in for a bigger shock than most!

Actually, that would be interesting. The Tau develop Warp technology, have no trouble with it, and there's a huge revelation when it turns out everybody else in the galaxy is just silly.

"Gue'la, join our Empire, and you will be spared."

"I will not leave the Emperor's light. Only He can protect my immortal soul!"

"You need not worry about your 'soul'. It is merely excess wind, trapped by the peculiar body form of humans."

Warp entities are forces of nature and can be controlled by technology such as the Geller Field.

If we're all agreed that the Tau are definitively 'gray' in the new codex, I'd like to chime in on why this is a good thing.

Yeah, it's not really possible to claim that the Tau are the nice guys, anymore, since I can point to places in your codex that specifically contradict that statement. And yeah, some of the Tau players are going to be somewhat upset about that (though if they caught the hints in the old codex and in other fluff pieces, they should've seen this coming). However, it affects more than just them. The fact that the Tau don't have the sole claim to goodness anymore means that other players can make the claim about their army.

Necrons, Tyranids, Chaos (largely), and Dark Eldar are played by people who want an evil army. Let's avoid all the moral relativism (and talk of whether Tyranids are really moral agents) for the moment and just acknowledge that, from a normal westerner's Judeo-Christian moral system, the galaxy would be a much better place if they were all to suddenly die.

Orks are generally played purely for their quirky nature.

Players of the other races, however, would like to see something noble about them. Many people start up Space Marines because they're 'the defenders of Humanity', and because they're shiny, of course. Now, it's somewhat disillusioning when they find out that Humanity isn't terribly nice in the 41st millenium. Many rationalize it - Man has to be a jerk, because otherwise he's going to die. The Imperium is as good as it is practical to be. Guard and Inquisition players can make the same argument. The Eldar can argue that they're so far above other races that their responsibilities to them are on the same level as our responsibilities to sheep and pigs. Most of the good about Eldar comes from inherent Elven nobility anyway. Granted, the Tau weren't doing anything to the Eldar argument, but the Imperial argument is made less effective by good Tau. The Tau (it was said) had found a way to survive (and flourish) while being nice to everyone. Kinda makes the Space Marines look like a bunch of pricks, doesn't it?

With the new Dark Tau (please, please can we call them that?), the Imperium can still claim to only be doing what is necessary, just as the Tau can be said to be doing. The new codex doesn't say that the Tau are evil, you'll note, simply that they've done terrible things to further their cause - that cause being the advancement of the Tau. It can still be argued that it is every race's right to keep itself alive, and that expanding and gaining more power is the only way to guarantee survival.

Additionally, Tau niceness was seriously annoying a huge number of people.  What makes 40k fresh and interesting is that no one is the good guy.  Every other sci-fi universe out there has a distinct good guy (or allied group of good guys) up against a horde of overpowering evil.  Unequivocally good Tau make 40k into exactly this kind of story - one that we're all long since tired of.  I know that some have argued that introducing a good guy makes 40k more interesting, but I think they're looking at it only in the context of 40k, and not in the context of all of our real-world experiences with other sci-fi universes.

Posted By Gotchaye on 03/26/2006 2:27 AM
Tyranids, ... are played by people who want an evil army. Let's avoid all the moral relativism (and talk of whether Tyranids are really moral agents) for the moment and just acknowledge that, from a normal westerner's Judeo-Christian moral system, the galaxy would be a much better place if they were all to suddenly die.

What? That's like saying, "Lets kill all the bacteria on Earth. Bacteria kills people and is therefore bad. We will all be happier."

See how your digestive tract likes that idea after a week.

Or perhaps, "Lets kill all the cats. Cats scratch people and are therefore bad. We will all be happier."

Oh. My. God.  And you thought New York had a rat problem now.

 

Tyranids are a corrective force in the Universe. They don't just eat humans, they eat everybody else as well. There is no morality within them, and no morality can be applied to them.

Tyranids are hungry. No more, no less. If hunger is evil, I shall rule in Hell.

 

Rose colored glasses are going out of style in the Tau Empire. Its time to embrace the change and accept the truth.

There is nothing in official fluff to show that Tau eliminate planets that oppose them the way that all the other factions do. So while they seem to have lost their youthful naivety, I would not call them evil yet.

It would be a pity if they became a blue-skinned Imperium. Lots of players may have disliked them being good, but they were still a very popular army. GW could lose something there if they change things too much.

Posted By Hellbug on 01/10/2006 10:48 PM
In light of all the new units for the Tau, I must protest about the new story behind the Tau. I like the Tau and started Warhammer 40k with the Tau because they were the only race that didn't wear skulls, didn't worship death, had no bulky and impractical armour, loved technology and had ambition.

But now, the new units are becoming ever more bulkier (stealth suits for example), the once proud, jedi-like ethereals are now depicted as wielding blades, wearing black robes, looking nasty and the new snippets of fluff suggest that the races that were inducted into the Tau empire were made to by force.

Why is Games Workshop turning them into an alien version of the Imperium? The ethereals now resemble Chaplains or other psykers and the armour is turning into Terminator armour. In the original background of the Tau, they would negotiate with an occupied planet and if the occupiers refused, they would take it by force.

The old ethereals wore bright, sandy coloured robes and carried symbols of office. The new ethereals wear black robes over red and carry spiked staves and blades and generally look mean. The slim stealth suits now have a helmet that stretches from their back to their groin and have bulkier legs.

Just wondering if anyone else agrees or has noticed this...

It is the same reason that there are no longer any completely pacifist societies left here on Earth, Archeologists have found that there were completely pacifist cultures that existed (mostly pre-rome) who would put most of thier efforts and resources in to arts and philosophy but when faced with aggressors they had to either become agressors or become extinct.

I've always seen the Tau as Romans. "We will take what we want by force if you don't surrender. But we will improve your lives with our technology. And if you play by our rules you can become a citizen."

Exactly! Maybe it's just me, but the reason I love Tau is that they don't care who they are fighting, but they have complete confidence that they are going to thrash them. Confidence! They BELIEVE down to their very bones that they ARE going to establish order in the universe, that thay ARE superior and that they ARE going to unite everyone. It may be that any confidence is over-confidence, but it is good to see a race that ACTS and advances and doesn't use millennia old equipment.

When I first read the Tau codex, I thought they were arrogant, egotistical aliens that needed a wake-up call. Turns out, they think the exact same about the Imperium, just not the alien part.

Tau power!

As far as the bulky armor goes, the stealth suits remind me of Star Wars also. Look a lot like Super Battle Droids:
http://www.starwars.com/databank/droid/superbattledroid/

All sociopolitical arguments aside, I can say two things:

When the Tau first came out, just about everybody except for one guy in our group were unimpresed by the Tau, backstory and all. I could have said of GW up to that point that at least they were consistent. A gritty, confused, treacherous, dangerous and dramatic (almost Wagnerian) universe was the constant. The orks waverd between the dark and brutal and the comedic, but that was accepted as "whomever is writing them today" syndrome.
The Tau were, in a word, too shiny. The one guy who did like them is a self-admitted anime nut. And that is who GW was trying to reach with them. Now GW has realized that if they pitched them a little darker, they could minimize their "shinyness" and still retain the army's character and flavor. That way, more of us could stomach playing them.

Second of all, the title says it all. Tau EMPIRE. They rest of the universe has figured out that the Tau are a power to be reckoned with. To stay afloat, the Tau are calling on more of their outlying resources. Times are hard, and we are in a STATE of wr. I can't give a tmeline as to when our firewarriors will come home, as that would only embolden the enemy. Some people seem to have forgotten the Space Marine attack on our city. We have to hunt down the perpetrators and make the universe a place safe for the Greater Good.

Okay, I lied about the sociopolictical part.

Theres no good or bad, no right or wrong....mearly action and reaction.

Ethereal goes to Orks....gets choppa in head.
Ethereal goes to Tyranids....gets rended.
Ethereal goes to Imperium....gets called a Xenos and shot with a bolter.

They try to be nice, instead getting rejected (violently)....an action that leads to the inevitable reaction of Tau shooting stuff. They are heroes of light, fighting against the tides of darkness....just getting alittle bit of darkness on them, hence the black clothes, or something.

Hmm.... what about if an ethereal went to an Eldar Seer?

The eldar (no offense to any eldar players) fluff-wise need all the help they can get. Their numbers dwindle every day, so why would they reject the ONE race trying to offer peace?

It would be interesting if Tau 'n' Eldar joined...

those are actually one of the few forces in the universe who could live peacefully together. I can't remember any fluff about Eldar fighting Tau.
just two fluff questions.
1.what do Aliens after they are "integrated" into the Tau Empire?
2.what are the Eldar trying to achive in their current form?

Hmm my two answers would be:

1. Work with them, share technology, research about eachother and find a way to combine their technology, labour, conscription, etc
2. Survival

EDIT: Also, I am unsure how an old and sage race like the Eldar would feel about the new kids on the block telling them how it's done... I'm sure a little bit of animosity may exist, but if they are wise and sage they might look past it.

wow, Eldar and Tau exchaning Technologies could really hurt. I mean their enemys.

Hmm... guide and/or fortune on a bunch of firewarriors, or worse, crisis suits..... mmmmmm

EDIT: Also, I am unsure how an old and sage race like the Eldar would feel about the new kids on the block telling them how it's done... I'm sure a little bit of animosity may exist, but if they are wise and sage they might look past it.

The Eldar are most certainly not wise enough to accept help from anyone else, their pride is immense. Eldar know that they are smarter than everybody else, and they're as arrogant as you could get about it. Unfortunately for the Eldar, they had to learn the hard way that could achieve so much, and are now despairing of other races who have yet to make their own mistakes. Eldar are arrogant and hypocritical, and would be unlikely to co-operate with the Tau beyond the extremely short term.

What goes around comes around eh?

The eldar will attack tau if they feel that it will be beneficial for them in the greater chain of events. Thats just the way they do things.

[code]

wight_widow wrote:

Hamil, yeah...(don't know if I'm spelling it right either) He's one reason I'm looking forward to the next Batman movie. After having voiced the character on Batman: TAS for years, I'm looking forward to seeing him as a live Joker.

As for Christian Hayden (I think) I heard he's retiring from movies to be a stage actor so no need to worry about that...or are you thinking about Episode 1? It would have been kind of cool if Greivous cut Jar Jar in half or he fell in a garbage compactor or something like that.

*even bigger tangent* Episode 3 rules IMHO - on par with 5 in my book. It also kind of adds a bit of another dimension to the story - kind of goes from being a space opera with vaguely anti-technological themes to more of the six-act tragedy of Anakin Skywalker. (if that doesn't warrant a slap) The interesting thing to think about is that he does, in the end bring balance to the force - but the Jedi are destroyed along with the Sith...they're like matter and anti-matter, they annul each other after a huge explosion. Luke's the only Jedi left by the end of number 6, and the implication is he learned enough from Ben to not try to train anyone. Yoda's dead, so no new Jedi after Luke dies. No yin, no yang.

 

edit - just to keep this nominally on-topic, eh, whaddayou expect? Probably in another few years some Tau will develop better psychic powers as the race becomes more passionate through involvement in the rest of the Galaxy, they'll have a civil war and GW will release a range of Tau who worship the Greater Bad. Look out for a Greater Daemon of Malaal with a submunition railgun.

hate to burst your bubble but that dont happen, Luke starts an academy and whole new order, Sith arent gone either but they are all pansies up untill recently.
Darth Bane beats the hell out of Vader

oh and btw:

I agree

i agree too

I concur.

Whatever it is you guys are agreeing with, I agree too..............

Dear god man. This one's almost 2 years old!!!