GW sliding scale discount for retailers...

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**BrookM**

Better than those "toally aewsoem storm troopah greens"

**asmith**

legoburner wrote:
krazynadechukr2 wrote:Who cares? Is this "new & rumours?"

erm, everyone who replied so far cares? It is almost the literal definition of news/rumours.

While I can agree with the basic logic behind what GW may be doing with a sliding scale, it wont make a bit of difference. There only needs to be one large online store somewhere on earth that sells at a discount and then everyone will go to them and ignore their local store. It is not like there is any massive loyalty to online stores, just whoever has the best combination of service, products, speed and price at the time.

As for the promotion of B&M stores at the expense of all others, the Internet is a source of massive information exchange and competitive web stores all want to increase their potential sales. Every dead web store is a dead source of growth that is no longer spending its time sponsoring contests, advertising, etc. If there were no more significant web stores then who would be buying advertising on sites like this? GW's competitors who sell alternate games to the same market that's who. I dont think it is a good idea to underestimate the number of people sites like dakka and warseer actually expose to wargaming. Dakka alone is close to a quarter of a million different people each month and serves millions upon millions of adverts each month too. I know loads of people from GW read this site, so put pressure on the rest of the company as to what on earth they are thinking regarding the lack of Internet business growth outside the official website.

Finally while I'm ranting, the price rises are getting more and more dangerous too. 3D printing is now higher quality than plastic injection moulding and many universities have them available for students to use. The technology is increasing at such a pace that there is going to be a sweet spot hit in the next few years where it becomes cheaper for people to scan and print models (mould line free) than to buy the expensive lower quality metal versions and as soon as that happens the black market will explode. A few years after that, home 3d printing will become affordable and I've long believed that will be the point where GW will be forced to change into an IP licensing company or die. I reckon it is about 7 years away now fwiw.

Speaking as an engineer who buys these things all the time as oart of my work, I think you are a couple of decades optimistic on that assessment. I don't think 3D printing is anywhere close to injection molding at the moment either in quality or price.

**Cannerus_The_Unbearable**

"There only needs to be one large online store somewhere on earth that sells at a discount and then everyone will go to them and ignore their local store."

Hyperbole much?

**legoburner**

Fair enough

by 'Everyone' I meant everyone who currently buys online.

As for 3d printing quality 16 microns seems pretty damn good to me, it is just a matter of cost:
http://www.3dtotal.com/3dprinting/

**asmith**

If you read closer they don't guarantee features smaller than ".03 - .015" of an inch. 16 microns is just the layer thickness, which doesn't have all that much to do with part accuracy (just smoothness of the surface in the direction of the layers).

I am working on a project now with injection molded parts that has more than an order of magnitude better tolerances than available through this type of machine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
As an aside, it doesn't mention this on the site anywhere, but these models need to be finished. Structural supports that support the model during creation need to be removed. Some systems have different materials that can be dissolved away, but a lot of times this is just a guy with clippers and sandpaper.

**legoburner**

ah ok thanks for the correction. I'll retract stating that 3D printing is now higher quality than plastic injection moulding then as it was based on that measurement - I figured that 16 micron layers meant 16 microns is the smallest feature too as I presumed it was just a layer-by-layer inkjet style deal with 16x16x16.

Maybe in a decade then because as soon as there is even a basic home model for printing generic replacement parts, simple tools and er... adult novelties, then research will boom hopefully. The basic models are about $5000 right now right?

As an aside, to drag this even more OT, how would you rate the plastics that GW produce?

**asmith**

Really basic models might be in the $5000 range, but I'm betting the one that makes the models you are looking at there is in the $100K+ range.

As far as rating GW plastics, they have many problems that I would consider unacceptable from other vendors, for instance it's most common for us to get parts directly from the mold desprued with no witness lines where the sprue was.

Most of what is considered mold lines on GW parts would actually be considered flash by most of the vendors I work with and be rejected (thats not considering the actual instances of large areas of flash on parts)

The other thing GW has a problem with is mold misalignment. Where there is actually a step on continuous features that cross the mold line. These would be considered reject parts no matter who I have worked with.

All in all I'd say if we were shipped parts from GW I would guess our inspection department would reject at least 75% of them.

This probably isn't strictly fair as GW parts are in an application where the demands are low (basically aesthetic with minimal fit and function requirements), whereas parts I do at work are high demand top of the line applications. However many of their shipped sprues fail the aesthetic requirements (the afformentioned flash and misaligment problems). All this would be ok if they weren't charging top dollar for the parts.

I think GW has sort of homegrown their mold expertise to a standard that is acceptable for the niche they are in, but does not match up with state of the art molding in anything but price.

Edit: this came out harsher than I wanted it to be against the moldmakers that work for GW if they should happen to read this. The results of their work is adequate for what they are asked to do and the resources they are given. I do think that the resulting parts of the GW system are poor compared say a company specialized in making injection molded tools and parts, and that they should definately be looking to improve their quality control.

I have noticed they are starting to experiment with simple slides on some of their sprues. So this is an improvement to their capabilities if nothing else.

**Trip**

CrimsonTurkey wrote:So the online shops will open stores with tables and painting lessons, putting the brick and mortar Games Workshop stores out of business in their respective areas. Brilliant.

Actually from GW POV this would work quite Nicely, save them a ton on rent and wages, while still selling their products and promoting the Hobby

**George Spiggott**

asmith wrote:If you read closer they don't guarantee features smaller than ".03 - .015" of an inch. 16 microns is just the layer thickness, which doesn't have all that much to do with part accuracy (just smoothness of the surface in the direction of the layers)... ...As an aside, it doesn't mention this on the site anywhere, but these models need to be finished. Structural supports that support the model during creation need to be removed. Some systems have different materials that can be dissolved away, but a lot of times this is just a guy with clippers and sandpaper.

Interesting stuff.

Are there any plastic, metal or resin models that are currently available (including 'airfix' style kits clicky prepaints, those cheap Chinese made soldiers you get from £ shops and $ stores and old GW kits like beaky space marines and the Mk 1 Rhino) that could in theory be reasonably replicated using this system following the afore mentioned tolerances?

I'm just trying to visualise where this process is at not start a cottage industry.

**asmith**

what do mean by replicated? You could make a one off probably of any of the lower quality plastic parts but the price would be prohibitive to make production quantities. I'm guessing the toy industry probably makes extensive use of this kind of technology for prototypes before tooling up for production.

There is a whole number of these digital manufacturing processes of which 3D printing is only one. they are collectively called Rapid Prototyping (RP) technologies, because that is the only thing they are suited for at the moment, prototyping.

Miniatures are for the most part about appearance and not about absolute part accuracy. If a feature shifts a few thousandths who's really going to know. So really the question is resolvable features. the smaller the scale the smaller the resolvable features have to be to retain the same level of detail. It's really hard to know what is going to show up on a digitally created part and what is not there is no one number that will tell you this. If I had to guess I would say you could get a standard plastic GW level of detail on a 3" figure. So in other words the resolvable feature size would have to shrink by a factor of about 3 to look like a GW fig at the same size. That's not to say you couldn't make a 3D printed master and sharpen up the fine detail manually to make a mold master for metal or resin casting. This is probably feasible now I would say.

**Warlord Imp**

Just wanted to add my 2 cents. I buy LOCAL. I buy regularly at a store which offers a In-Store GC for every so much amount of GW product you purchase. Of course the GC goes to more GW product.

This LGS has the same prices as the GW Store which is about the same distance from where I live. I still purchase from the LGS because of the GC program. I have only played once at the LGS and none at the GW Store. I am fairly new with just a few months invested but I would rather play at the GW Store for the mere friendliness of the staff. I inquired for any loyalty programs the GW may have in the future. And they said they are working on one. Until that is in place, I will continue to buy at the LGS.

I have browsed the internet for deals and discounts but I am still drawn to support the LGS. I guess my principles stop me from buying online. But I should also say if I did find a store that was selling at 40% off and had free shipping, I would buy from them. To me the key is free shipping because as a ebay seller myself, I usually make up my profit in shipping by charging the flat rate when I pay a discounted bulk rate.

I live in an area that has a dried up minis hobby market so I have to drive 30 miles to go to either the LGS or the GW Store. This stops me from playing as often as I would like (everynight if I could). Had the LGS in my immediate area survived, I would be playing more. If I stop buying from my LGS then I am one less customer. Maybe not alot considering the number of players they have but in this economy, I would think every player counts.

GW is right to give the LGS big discounts. Now, it is up to the LGS on what they will do with it. Make a loyalty program just like the LGS I go to or sell online which GW frowns upon. I truly wish some GW Personnel read forums like this and forwards their concerns to GW directly.

**JohnHwangDD**

asmith wrote:Really basic models might be in the $5000 range, but I'm betting the one that makes the models you are looking at there is in the $100K+ range.

$5k is more than most people paid total lifetime.

For GW stuff, you wouldn't buy a machine - you'd rent some time on one.

But even if timeshared / job queued, it's still easier to just buy the molded stuff.

**dante_121**

grizgrin wrote:Looking at some of the OZ posters in this thread, it makes me wonder if an Indie retailer in OZ might not be able to get stuff cheaper via an Alliance hookup than they do from GW itself. Or WHY is it so much more expensive in OZ. I mean, if WG can get his crack 30% off from the UK, might a B&M retailer not be able to work somthing out with Alliance or some such ilk?

Can someone post a link or more info about Alliance and what it is?
Thanks

**mikhaila**

Alliance is a distributor of games in Baltimore, Maryland. They only wholesale to commercial stores for resale. In most cases they are not allowed to wholesale some products, including GW, to other countries. Many manufacturers have this restriction, as they have agents they work with in each country.

**Mick A**

So how many e-bay retailers out there have been contacted by GW saying that if they continue to sell new GW products on e-bay after June 1st they will stop supplying them?
Mick