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Made in ca
1st Lieutenant





RustyKnight wrote:
Norade wrote:
Lanceradvanced wrote:
Norade wrote: In a real war or even a scenario with all the Spartans with vehicles and best kit versus only an equal number of SM with vehicles and just bolters I know who I'm voting for.


Which would be the exact kind of scenario that the spartans wouldn't be used for....

Again, Hammer vs Multitool.. and that the last I'm gonna say on it..


Just repeating Hammer versus Multitool does not an argument make. You have yet to provide a situation where Spartans are more capable than Marines in spite of my asking for it several times, so I am forced to conclude that you don't have one and are trying to stall.

Can Space Marines take off their armor and go undercover? Can Space Marines carry around ship-grade AI's in their heads? Can a Space Marine deflect an anti-tank missle with his arm and live? These examples don't mean that Spartans beat SM, but they are examples of situations where a Spartan would outperform an SM.


Space Marines can't go undercover in any society I can think of. As far as ship grade AI, most of 40k doesn't have higher end AI from what I have scene so it doesn't seem to matter too much, also what would they need it for? If we're talking about a Halo anti-tank missile then yes, easily, if you're talking about a 40k anti-tank missile then they die only fractions of a second slower than a Spartan would.
   
Made in us
Sslimey Sslyth






Busy somewhere, airin' out the skin jobs.

RustyKnight wrote:
Can Space Marines take off their armor and go undercover?
Marine Scouts?
Can Space Marines carry around ship-grade AI's in their heads?
I thought power armour helms had computerised HUD's...why not?
Can a Space Marine deflect an anti-tank missle with his arm and live?
"ok, you rolled a hit with the missle..now roll to wound. Aww, you rolled a 1!" OR two words...artificer armour.
These examples don't mean that Spartans beat SM, but they are examples of situations where a Spartan would outperform an SM.
No they arent.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/15 04:17:38


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Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant







this is sparta. look at my avatar and think for yourself

-to many points to bother to count.
mattyrm wrote:i like the idea of a woman with a lobster claw for a hand touching my nuts. :-)
 
   
Made in us
Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot




Chicago

Even a Space Marine's combat knife would one shot a Spartan. Not to mention what a chainsword would do.

Either way, this argument will depend on who you ask. People who are familiar with both will go 90% Space Marine.

Kids who played Halo 3 online for hours will always go Spartan because they wouldn't know badass if it dropped in on them with a jump pack and chainsworded them to death.

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho Marx
Sanctjud wrote:It's not just lame... it's Twilight Blood Angels Nipples Lame.
 
   
Made in us
Bane Thrall





New England

Just repeating Hammer versus Multitool does not an argument make. You have yet to provide a situation where Spartans are more capable than Marines in spite of my asking for it several times, so I am forced to conclude that you don't have one and are trying to stall.


I don't feel the need to come up with elaborate contrived scenarios to counter a "Marine can't be touched and can destroy anything" argument, that I don't believe is supportable after reeadign through a lot of the of the GW fic where the Marines die in droves, and exhibit strategic blindspots you could drive a truck though. If they didn't have those holes, the Imperium wouln't need the Guard, or more to the point, the Ordos. It's those situations that the Spartans would generally be more capable in, where the Imperium calls an Inquisitor, the UNSC calls a Spartan..


<Rarity> I am not whining, I am complaining! Do you want to hear whining?

Thiiis is whiiiiining! Oooo, this mini is too expeennsive! I'm' going brrookee! Can't you make it cheaper? Oh, it's resin and not metal anymore! Why didn't you take it off the sprue first? That's gonna leave a pour spout, and the FLGS is so far away, WHY DO I HAVE TO SUPPORT IIIIIIIT?! </Rairty>  
   
Made in us
Dominar






Lanceradvanced wrote:
Just repeating Hammer versus Multitool does not an argument make. You have yet to provide a situation where Spartans are more capable than Marines in spite of my asking for it several times, so I am forced to conclude that you don't have one and are trying to stall.


I don't feel the need to come up with elaborate contrived scenarios to counter a "Marine can't be touched and can destroy anything" argument, that I don't believe is supportable after reeadign through a lot of the of the GW fic where the Marines die in droves, and exhibit strategic blindspots you could drive a truck though. If they didn't have those holes, the Imperium wouln't need the Guard, or more to the point, the Ordos. It's those situations that the Spartans would generally be more capable in, where the Imperium calls an Inquisitor, the UNSC calls a Spartan..



Marines really don't "die in droves". It takes a significant foe to really begin popping them off, and it's more a reflection on how incredibly savage the xenoforms in 40k are that many can kill 2-3 Marines at a time (Carnifex, Wraith Lord, Archon) than it is on Marines being the sux. In a literary sense, these sorts of fights tend to simply be the entry point for some named SM character, who always wins.

I've read all the Halo books except the last, and really I don't see anything in their material that would put them on par with Astartes, especially if you compare the Spartans (who all seem to become Named special characters) with Named Space Marines. Really, by all rights, Chief is the equivalent of a Chapter Master, and as the archetypal Spartan, we should be comparing him to characters like Calgar or Abaddon. Can you really tell me that Chief could take on Abaddon?

As for strategic blindspots, Marine tactics tend to be some variant on a suicidal charge to get into hand to hand. It's more a reflection on how incredibly UBAR they are that they make a headlong dive into enemy gunfire a viable combat maneuver. As I recall, Spartans were only deployed en masse in a planetary invasion once against the Covenant, and although they achieved their mission, all of them died. Marines often dive into those sorts of situations against foes at least as powerful and advanced as the Covenant, win, and rarely fall under fighting strength.

They're bigger, stronger, faster, better equipped, and if not better trained, at least equally trained.

It would take a huge bonus to overcome those natural advantages, and nothing I've read suggests that Spartans have that sort of edge.
   
Made in ca
1st Lieutenant





Lanceradvanced wrote:
Just repeating Hammer versus Multitool does not an argument make. You have yet to provide a situation where Spartans are more capable than Marines in spite of my asking for it several times, so I am forced to conclude that you don't have one and are trying to stall.


I don't feel the need to come up with elaborate contrived scenarios to counter a "Marine can't be touched and can destroy anything" argument, that I don't believe is supportable after reeadign through a lot of the of the GW fic where the Marines die in droves, and exhibit strategic blindspots you could drive a truck though. If they didn't have those holes, the Imperium wouln't need the Guard, or more to the point, the Ordos. It's those situations that the Spartans would generally be more capable in, where the Imperium calls an Inquisitor, the UNSC calls a Spartan..



This is a thread about Space Marines versus Spartans, yet you only every vaguely talk about tactical blind spots and special scenarios without bringing in anything to back up your argument. As far as needing the guard of course they need bodies and soldiers to garrison worlds, that is there job, that's like saying if US Marines didn't have such huge blind spots then we wouldn't need a national guard, or if the Spartans didn't have such huge blind spots then the UNSC wouldn't need anybody else. Both forces are the elite combat forces of their respected governments, so instead of trying to say that we shouldn't compare them because they are too different why don't instead you provide evidence for your statements.

As Sourclams says Marines die against some of the worst things in the 40k universe, Spartans could die to a modern guy with a few grenades and an AK-47
   
Made in au
Dangerous Leadbelcher






Australia

The space marines would all be standing there with no helmets and shouting. And if the spartans can shoot the little orange bit on hunters...

Anyway, this argument is silly.
   
Made in mx
Water-Caste Negotiator





Lets settle it like men, ancient men.

We shall have a fight between the two universes using the strongest man of each, champion vs champion:



Marneus Augustus Calgar aka Papa Smurf VS John-117 aka Master Chief

I was going to post an entire list about each one, but then decided that there is nothing more badass than this:



Lexicanum wrote:Calgar is immune to fear and is resolutely courageous under fire; where lesser men would dive for cover when being fired upon, Marneus Calgar takes quick stock of the situation, decides the best course of action, and only if he so decides to leap into cover, then he will do so.

28 volumes of records dedicated to the achievements and deeds of Calgar, surpassed only by Roboute Guilliman, are stored within a vault at the Macragge's Chapter Fortress. Amongst these achievements include: leading the breaching assault on the Tyranid Hive Ship Behemoth Primus, single-handedly holding the gate against an Ork Horde for a night and a day at the Siege of Zalathrax, defeating an Eldar Avatar in single-handed combat, thus leading to the rout of Eldar forces at the Battle for Orar's Sepulchre, and recapturing the star fort Indomitable from the daemonic hordes of M'kar the Reborn


So yeah... try pulling that off mr Masterchief...

Waaagh! 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





Sheffield, England

WHO WOULD WIN IN A FIGHT BATMAN OR SUPERMAN BUT IF BATMAN'S PREPARED??

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Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot





Greenville

I've gotta say, I'm surprised. This thread of "my fictional super soldier can beat up your fictional super soldier" managed to stay relatively on-track for at least 2 pages.

Can we bring this to a close please?

CK

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person, who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
-- John Stuart Mill

Black Templars (8000), Imperial Guard (3000), Sanguinary Host (2000), Tau Empire (1850), Bloodaxes (3000) 
   
Made in us
Bane Thrall





New England

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:I've gotta say, I'm surprised. This thread of "my fictional super soldier can beat up your fictional super soldier" managed to stay relatively on-track for at least 2 pages.

Can we bring this to a close please?

CK


Sure, Second Stage Lensmen PWN everything...

<Rarity> I am not whining, I am complaining! Do you want to hear whining?

Thiiis is whiiiiining! Oooo, this mini is too expeennsive! I'm' going brrookee! Can't you make it cheaper? Oh, it's resin and not metal anymore! Why didn't you take it off the sprue first? That's gonna leave a pour spout, and the FLGS is so far away, WHY DO I HAVE TO SUPPORT IIIIIIIT?! </Rairty>  
   
Made in us
Dangerous Skeleton Captain




The Vegetable Plane

The Dreadnote wrote:WHO WOULD WIN IN A FIGHT BATMAN OR THE EMPEROR BUT IF BATMAN'S PREPARED??


Fixed it for you

Officially canonized as St. Yams of the Church of the Children of the Turtle Pie by Chaplain Shrike January 3rd 2009 :

 
   
Made in ca
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God





Inactive


*Screams in horror , not this type of topic again.

In b4 Space Marine vs Supreme Commander.

Paused
◙▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
           ◂◂  ►  ▐ ▌  ◼  ▸▸
          ʳʷ   ᵖˡᵃʸ  ᵖᵃᵘˢᵉ  ˢᵗᵒᵖ   ᶠᶠ 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





Sheffield, England

God Of Yams wrote:
The Dreadnote wrote:WHO WOULD WIN IN A FIGHT BATMAN OR THE EMPEROR BUT IF BATMAN'S PREPARED??


Fixed it for you
Now normally I'd vote Batman in these issues (fun fact: batman did already win the above scenario), but the Emperor isn't as much of a pussy as superman. He'd probably just powersword him in half or something.

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Made in us
Dominar






Going by the personal history of the Emperor and his do-gooder-style wanderings for the first 10,000 years of his life, you could make a very good case of the Emperor actually having been Batman.
   
Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






Mad Rabbit wrote:Spartans are essentially still human, just with the cool armor.
Space Marines are a head taller, better armed, better armored, stronger, tougher and not afraid of anything.

No contest. Space marines would drop their guns out of pity and tear off the Spartans' arms. Then maybe use them as clubs to put the poor Spartans down.



Hahahahahaha LOL, oh man that got me going, haha

yeah space marines would justpumel them like Mad Rabbit stated lol.

   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





Sheffield, England

sourclams wrote:Going by the personal history of the Emperor and his do-gooder-style wanderings for the first 10,000 years of his life, you could make a very good case of the Emperor actually having been Batman.
I think you just restored my faith in the imperium.

FOR THE BATMAN!

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Sneaky Kommando






i just want to say master chief can improvise space marines dont



but then every one else kills both

END

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Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





Sheffield, England

Space marines can improvise. They just don't usually need to. Giant, head-sized metal fists and automatic rocket launchers tend to suffice in most situations. The master chief is often outclassed by his enemies; space marines do the outclassing.

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Sneaky Kommando






i said they both get killed the end

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Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Internet vs debates are stupid and pointless.

Space Marine wins hands down.

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Plano, Texas

I heard that Halo was the first, first person shooter ever made, and that Master Chief is the first superhero.

Ergo, the Spartans would totally win.

End of thread.
   
Made in us
Happy Imperial Citizen




PA

It really depends on if your talking about game spartan or the spartan in the books. SM vs game Spartan then SM wins. If it`s SM vs Book Spartan then i would be close.

Because this is a Warhammer site, i really think some of you only know the game spartan not the book spartan, so here a link http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_Program

1000pt of Word Bearers
2000pts of bugs
 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





Sheffield, England

Book spartan still loses. If I was to argue otherwise I'd have to start ignoring facts.

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Dominar






I've read nearly all the Halo books and book Spartan definitely loses. Master Chief "John" versus Marneus Calgar won't end well. Chief could barely take on a Brute in close combat. Against Calgar what would he do? His best bet would be sticking grenades to him and running.
   
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Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch





Akron, Ohio

Just kinda curios, but aren't there IG books where the SM lose to humans?

DR:90S+G++MB+I+Pw40k07++D++A++/eWD-R+++T(Ot)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Dominar






Not really, no. The closest comparison I can think of is in Gaunt's Ghosts, I think it was Armor of Contempt, where a 5 man Chaos Space Marine squad plops into a village with about a two hundred natives and a vet squad of Ghosts. The CSM are all killed, but 100 of the Natives die to drag them down.

Likewise there was a scene in the first Eisenhorn novel Xenos where Gregor gets into a sword/axe fight with an Aspiring Champion of the Emperor's Children, and it's not even close, he's just getting his ass kicked all over the place. He warp-stunned it with an ancient heretical tome and cut its head off.

That's pretty typical for SM death scenes with Abnett. If "normal" humans to manage to kill a Space Marine it's because of overwhelming advantage or special equipment, and usually a whole bunch of normal humans die in the process.

Likewise in the Soul Drinker series a Ministorum Priest with a huge mass of IG Penal Legionnaires slowly kill half of a Space Marine squad, but take exponentially greater casualties in the process. In the same series an inquisitor manages to kill a chapter champion one-on-one, but he does it from range with specialized seeking bolt ammunition, and still almost dies.

In Lord of the Night a single Chaos Raptor almost gets dragged down by a hundred Arbites firing massed shotgun volleys, but then he kills them all.

There's the occasional Marine casualty to a Guardsman with a plasmagun, but those are pretty few and far between. In the vast majority of stories Marines tear through unaugmented humans like linebackers through 5th graders.
   
Made in us
Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot




Chicago

sourclams wrote:Not really, no. The closest comparison I can think of is in Gaunt's Ghosts, I think it was Armor of Contempt, where a 5 man Chaos Space Marine squad plops into a village with about a two hundred natives and a vet squad of Ghosts. The CSM are all killed, but 100 of the Natives die to drag them down.

Likewise there was a scene in the first Eisenhorn novel Xenos where Gregor gets into a sword/axe fight with an Aspiring Champion of the Emperor's Children, and it's not even close, he's just getting his ass kicked all over the place. He warp-stunned it with an ancient heretical tome and cut its head off.

That's pretty typical for SM death scenes with Abnett. If "normal" humans to manage to kill a Space Marine it's because of overwhelming advantage or special equipment, and usually a whole bunch of normal humans die in the process.

Likewise in the Soul Drinker series a Ministorum Priest with a huge mass of IG Penal Legionnaires slowly kill half of a Space Marine squad, but take exponentially greater casualties in the process. In the same series an inquisitor manages to kill a chapter champion one-on-one, but he does it from range with specialized seeking bolt ammunition, and still almost dies.

In Lord of the Night a single Chaos Raptor almost gets dragged down by a hundred Arbites firing massed shotgun volleys, but then he kills them all.

There's the occasional Marine casualty to a Guardsman with a plasmagun, but those are pretty few and far between. In the vast majority of stories Marines tear through unaugmented humans like linebackers through 5th graders.


You were thinking of Traitor General in the first one. It also involved creative uses of power swords, tube charges, and the surrounding environment. But yes, your point is quite valid.

It would take a lot of Spartans to drag down a Marine

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho Marx
Sanctjud wrote:It's not just lame... it's Twilight Blood Angels Nipples Lame.
 
   
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Stealthy Space Wolves Scout





Farmington Hills

It is a moot point. Space marines would lose simply because Spartan grenades actually do damage, and Spartans can shoot their laser cannons, missile launchers and sniper rifles on the run.

"See the cowards run!" The sergeant would yell. Followed closely by "By the emperor, what is that red dot on your armor brother?"

   
 
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