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Well the knights are another example of lost tech. The point is a stompa is probaly worst then a warhound titan, but can be made far swifter then Titans, i gotta disagree about Ork tech, they can do alot of things the Imperium cant.

It's no secret that tech is lost. But it is also no secret that tech is just as often found. STC's and such. I was arguing that Titans CAN be built. Same with ships and (hopefully) dreds. (If ur wrong)

You want to hear a quote from naval officer?

Sailor/whatever: Sir! We hit the Ork Ship!
Captain: And?
Sailor: Well, it's trailing debris, sir!
Captain: Sailor, they're orks. That ship was trailing debris before we did anything about it.

Imperium tech get's a lot fewer of there own side killed. And probably breaks down a lot less.

The last big STC find was at the Heresy and forgod sake HORUS gave them that lol.

WTF are you talking about?
There have been COUNTLESS STC finding. Admitedly most are patched together, or about things as simple as how to best forge a blade. But there are PLENTY of STC findings.

Yes, but the point is Orks can never be defeated because they release alot of spores and have been like everywhere, so for the Orks thats victory. Imperium could just about push the Orks back to the edge of the Milky way, but will still get raided pretty frequiently so victory for Imperium.

So that makes it a 1-1 so a draw, into they destroy each other, which will never happen.

Not dying is not victory.
Defeating your opponent is victory.
Hiding in a cave is only scraping a survival.

If Imperium proves its dominance in the galaxy then then that is an Imperium Victory.

But is pushing them to the outside of the Galaxy Victory?
And its not just about victory in imperial eyes it about victory in Ork eyes too.

Lord-Loss wrote:Well do you have evidence that some Ork spores die?
Everything on the Ork side, we have evidence for, do you have evidence about the speed of Imperium ship creation?

Where you evidence for the number of guard?

We have evidence that identifys the Orks as the biggest race, we have evidence that the Ork could destroy this Galaxy in a green tide.

We have evidence that Orks can loot and produce tech faster then Imperium.

We have evidence that Orks can develop tech unlike the Imperium which cannot produce half there tech anymore eg Dreadnoughts, Titan and Knights.

Your evidence consists of ?
Self written fluff?

No quotes? Could it be there is nothing to quote?


Now lets have a look at official GW publications:

IIUP( pages 65 to67):

Of all the pestilent race that infest our galaxy, the orks are the more numerous .
They mass together in great war bands and by sheer weight of numbers they overwhelm those who stand before them.
Cowards! But a man, armed with a lasgun and knowledge of their physiology, has nothing to fear from these abominations.

An ork is an unworthy foe, little more than an animal that has, by some twist of nature, a very basic understanding of the rudiments of technology. Theories abound as to their true nature. Some reports suggest they are fungus which produces spores in order to reproduce. It is certain that no one has managed to identify a female ork, or it may be the casethat the female orks look like the males. Such questions are unimportant.

Its enough to know that an ork is slow witted and will cause no problems for a proper trained imperial infantryman.
It is far more appropriate to compare the brain capacity of an ork to a plant than its to any sentient lifeform. Its capable of little cohesive thought , and is easily confused by loud noises or sudden movement.

Orks live in tribes, known as clans. The largest and most savage of them will rise to be their leader, by very dint of its size and brutishness. These violent war clans, led by their boss, will attack anything in their way. Orks positively live to fight ( tough
they have little skill at it ), it is what drives and motivates them. This can work to your advantage; an ork is without the capacity to think intelligently, and its every move can be predicted.

Thats not to say they are entirely without menace. But only to the untrained and weak-willed. They are relatively strong and tough, and their phisiology is made up in such way as to give them a remarkable tolerance to pain and a capacity to regenerate very quickly if wounded. However, this presents little crisis; they just require more shooting than other targets.

Addendum-orks are cowards. Atactic they often employ is to send forward waves of their smaller brethren (gretchins) ahead of the main advance to soak up fire. Make prodigious use of flamer weapons as the bright light and the heat terrifies these ork runts, adding confusion to the ranks.

An ork can seem an alarmingly prospect when first encountered. They stand taller than a man, with hunched, broad shoulders and long arms. They may seem to be heavily muscled, but the fact is their muscle tissue is not as dense as a humans. In actuality they are considerably weaker than the average man, despite what their appearance suggests. Their skin is thick and coarse and ranges in hue from green to almost black. Portions of their body are covered in stiff black hair. Their brow is heavy ( denoting their lack of intellect) and their little, almost useless eyes have a red cast to them. They have great tusks which jut from their mouths, but they are not sharp and a firm tug will pull them out by the root.

When confronting orks in combat remember their weaknesses and consider the facts;
they are but animals, and they have no place in our galaxy where they prey only on the weak and helpless. After they have seen you with a loaded lasgun and a smile on your face, you can shoot them in the back as they run away!

(ii) The warboss is always the biggest and toughest ork in the band. It keeps all the others in line by virtue of its dominance, size and strength. Because of its size it will present an easier target. A shot to the face will drop the alien scum like a sack of sand.

(iii) Boyz make up the rank and file of the ork rabble. They are usually armed with crude machine guns and cannons wich frequently misfire and jam. These bestial brutes are no match for the proud Imperial Guard, and disciplined fire into the body or head will end their miserable lives.

(iv) Nobs are generally larger than boyz, and can be considered more dangerous. They are sometimes equipped with a primitive version of power armor. They will be heavily armed with ranged and close combat weapons, and they delight in the loud noises they make. Chances are they will be so engrossed in the explosions and cracks emanating from their ( probably malfunctioning) weapons that they wont notice you creeping up on them to administer a killing shot into their eye.

Orks are capable of building makeshift vehicles but be aware: variations are widespread and no standard pattern exists. The only consistency is the instability of all their transports.
Further proof of the aliens instability!



See, evidence of the superiority of the imperial guard.

And i am still curious where some green-faced fanbois get the idea of lost STC tech from.

Example:

FW had the executioner as rare vehicle. GW took over this tank in plastic and dropped that, so anyone may field as much executioners as he desires to.
FW produced the baneblades, GW took over and dropped the idea of rare superheavies. Now plastic kits got backup from datasheets to field super heavy tanks not only as companies but also as regiments.

Therefore i doubt the lack of abilities in fluff to produce any desired tech if there is a plastic kit to sell in real life.
Background has to adopt. And it does. Read the SM dex. Any hint on irreplacable tech isn't there anymore.






PS: i have to thank EF for his stalwart defense of 40ks background.

"Lo and behold! Although they were without number and their evil knew no bounds, EF held the gate for a night and a day. Never faltering in his duty, never sparing a moments hesitation. For the Emprah was with him, and the Emprah was AWESOME."

Thanks for the Reinforcements! lol

It kind of annoys me when people talk about orks being all over the entire universe, Orks that are outside the galaxy, even if united against the Imperium, would not have any effect the outcome of the war.

ok, so yea, imperial probes come back with ork chatter, you know current real world probes come back with? human chatter!

radio waves travel at light speed forever, so orks that were talking on radios 1,000,000 years ago from when the old ones created them would have signals out in deep space.

I stand by my earlier statement

Better Space Navy
Exterminatus
Win

with no other threats but orks, then the loss of a few key forge worlds would not hurt the imperium after the ork threat is neutralized from exterminatus.

the imperium cannot use exterminatus at will right now because of the sheer number of threats from every angle make the loss of even a single forge world quite crippling.

Definitely. Though if you've read anything about how much 'nids it took to take on a single forge world, you'll realise orks will have an even TOUGHER time. (Whole Titan legions stand ready, and tanks are produced faster than they are lost).

Its mentioned in nurmerious threads that if the Orks were BANDED together then they could beat up the Imperium and Emporers faithful pretty easily.


Lost tech, alot of lost tech: Dreads, knights etc.

Now if the Orks were so easy to kill then why are they still raiding numerious planets and kicking the gak outa the guard of that planet?

There were Orks on Armaggeden after the second war?
The guard couldnt wipe them out.
You didnt seem to outline the good stuff about Orks lol. But your also forgetting humans have fear? A large green brute is swinging a big sword at you, are you gonna run?

Warbosses being weak? Tell that to Ghakya Thraka!

I don't think anything has been added to this discussion since the last thread.

Ghakya Thraka? I assume you mean Ghazgkull.
Were is he again? Oh yeah, that's right, RUNNING AWAY!

Also, the Imperium hasn't wiped out orks becuase they have been fighting EVRYONE. This is one on one. And you have to realise that orks are NEVER going to be NEARLY as united as Imperium.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I don't think anything has been added to this discussion since the last thread.

I have to agree Orkeosaurus, i like Xavs conclusion.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I don't think anything has been added to this discussion since the last thread.

Yes, i ve noticed youre the only ork supporter providing back up for your points.

Sadly, this discussion will move nowhere, since your faction refuses to use fluff and instead keeps on posting " we winz".

Which they dont.
Because 40k is set to have everyone believing he wins. Try codex orks and codex Tau.
If you not read the other codex, you get the impression your army won. 2 winners?

"But uz Orkz alwa'z beatz the uman'z"

I actually don't support the Orks winning if they can't unite.

They normally have no desire to work together as a race, so it's really a matter of "can any Ork faction defeat the Imperium", which is a no, or "without other races present would Orks become united against humanity", which seems unlikely. (Of course, if they're being treated as a whole due to the nature of the hypothetical, they clearly do win.)

(This is all assuming "win" means "take more of the galaxy".)

I agree, a definition of "winning in the 1 vs 1 setting = ? " may be the source of our running in circles.

So, to win all out total war means:

- annihilate your opponent?
- destroy the organizational structure of your opponent?
- control more systems/planets than your opponent?

1hadhq wrote:
Yes, i ve noticed youre the only ork supporter providing back up for your points.

Sadly, this discussion will move nowhere, since your faction refuses to use fluff and instead keeps on posting " we winz".

Which they dont.
Because 40k is set to have everyone believing he wins. Try codex orks and codex Tau.
If you not read the other codex, you get the impression your army won. 2 winners?

ENTER SAVIOR:
"Their number is beyond counting" "Should the Orks ever truly unify, they would crush all opposition and drown the civilised races in a tide of gore."
-Phil Kelly-
So yeah, wow GW, the authers of this little make believe universe you are so happily arguing about also agrees with the ork fanboys as you like to call us that if they unite ALL races(Man, Tau, Chaos, Tyranids, etc) not just the imperium will burn in our orky boot prints.
And yes if they were to be left against the imperium they would unite.
You may want to actually learn to read the others codexes before quoting them, it states in the tau codex that durring the imperiums incursion the tau were DEFETED, in the Tyranid codex they were DEFETED by the space marines. Need any more refrances? So in the end if you are a player of one of the said codexes your army wasnt a winner. Sigh... Dumbasses.
Do we the orks need any more proof of our domanance?

GAHHHH

Ok im spamming, but most of you are too....

And i read it all....seriously. Its a bunch of Imp and Ork fans flinging poo at each other. Since humans are part of the fight, i stand by my monkey comparison.

Because backed up by fluff boith win. just depends on what Codex you are reading.

Thank you GW for conflicting fluff.

Want to read crap fluff because it conflicts? Read anything GW.

Its cool to read, but can be disproven by the next guys fluff.

1hadhq wrote:I agree, a definition of "winning in the 1 vs 1 setting = ? " may be the source of our running in circles.

So, to win all out total war means:

- annihilate your opponent?
- destroy the organizational structure of your opponent?
- control more systems/planets than your opponent?

Do me a favor and pull out your 5th ed rule book turn to page 106 and look at the area of control the orks possess.
-annihalte your opponent... they conquer multiple systems every waaagh! before they can be stoped.
-destroy the organizational structure of your opponent... They conquer the entire system, so there's no chance of a regroup in that system.
-control more systems/planets than your opponent... every world they conquer the leave thousands of orks/meks along with spores released from the last battle.
Anymore proof needed?
P.S. and yes this is info strate from the FLUFF. Not out of my head.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voronesh wrote:GAHHHH

Ok im spamming, but most of you are too....

And i read it all....seriously. Its a bunch of Imp and Ork fans flinging poo at each other. Since humans are part of the fight, i stand by my monkey comparison.

Because backed up by fluff boith win. just depends on what Codex you are reading.

Thank you GW for conflicting fluff.

Want to read crap fluff because it conflicts? Read anything GW.

Its cool to read, but can be disproven by the next guys fluff.

Actaully there are lines in imperial codexes/novels that support the dominance of the ork race.
"I fear it will be them and not us who rule this galexy in the end"
-Imperial Commander-

Just to reiterate:
-We know Ork would win if they united.
-We also know that is about as likely as the Emprah and co. coming back and pawining all.
-So we must assume that orks cannot be WHOLLY united in their fight against the Imperium

It's actually been stated that there are many events occuring in the galaxy that are starting to worry the Imperium. Thraka looks to be uniting more orks now than has ever been united before, and Wazdakka is uniting the speed freeks like never before. Do I smell some 40K universe expansion, I hope so!!!

Chosen Praetorian wrote:


ENTER SAVIOR:
"Their number is beyond counting" "Should the Orks ever truly unify, they would crush all opposition and drown the civilised races in a tide of gore."
-Phil Kelly-
So yeah, wow GW, the authers of this little make believe universe you are so happily arguing about also agrees with the ork fanboys as you like to call us that if they unite ALL races(Man, Tau, Chaos, Tyranids, etc) not just the imperium will burn in our orky boot prints.

So i should be unhappily arguing .....

that orks will never unify.
Because thats their inbuild disclaimer.

I dont see any way how they should unite or why. Would be completly against the orks nature to do so.

Chosen Praetorian wrote:
You may want to actually learn to read the others codexes before quoting them,

At least i am capable of reading and did also quote "as is".

I like referances but didnt see them here.
Maybe insert a quote yourself or at least care to show us the page number?

Chosen Praetorian wrote:
it states in the tau codex that durring the imperiums incursion the tau were DEFETED, in the Tyranid codex they were DEFETED by the space marines. Need any more refrances? So in the end if you are a player of one of the said codexes your army wasnt a winner. Sigh... Dumbasses.
Do we the orks need any more proof of our domanance?

If you explain me
-defeted = is this de-fethed or de- fated or ? Maybe ill-fated typing?

So yes i need more referances.
And no, my point was the contradicting fluff . Still : o shovah vs orks and orks vs o-shovah.

Plus i do not doubt the orks need / want / believe in their dominance.

But proof?

Chosen Praetorian wrote:It's actually been stated that there are many events occuring in the galaxy that are starting to worry the Imperium. Thraka looks to be uniting more orks now than has ever been united before, and Wazdakka is uniting the speed freeks like never before. Do I smell some 40K universe expansion, I hope so!!!

Maybe the rulebook helps you out here, page116 upper left corner, boxed text "imperius dominatus"

Xenos may rise, but we will hand them their asses....

...on a silver platter.
*high five @ 1hadhq*

Ok still the if discussion going on.

Metagaming it.... GW will never let all the Orks unit, so they cant win against the Imperium. Also GW will never let the Emperor come back or Russ or whoever from the heroes of old. So the Imperium wont win either.

Perfect stalemate for a great game. Any discussion is based on ifs that never will be.....and has been revolving around that since post 1 or so?


Oh and i wish the could finally call him the Imperator, cause mixing languages is so awful. High Gothic is basically latin, imperium certainly is latin, why give the guy at the head an english title? Target group thought to be unable to handle this little latin?

Voronesh wrote:Ok still the if discussion going on.

Metagaming it.... GW will never let all the Orks unit, so they cant win against the Imperium. Also GW will never let the Emperor come back or Russ or whoever from the heroes of old. So the Imperium wont win either.

Perfect stalemate for a great game. Any discussion is based on ifs that never will be.....and has been revolving around that since post 1 or so?


Oh and i wish the could finally call him the Imperator, cause mixing languages is so awful. High Gothic is basically latin, imperium certainly is latin, why give the guy at the head an english title? Target group thought to be unable to handle this little latin?

I'll have to agree with this and let the argument go, GW will never support any of this in the first place.
@ ihadhq I believe the only ones getting their asses handed to them were the Nazis!
In my latest revalation I believe it would be a never ending war that the orks would never want to win.
P.S. WE WINZ WE WINZ WE WINZ

Oh and i wish the could finally call him the Imperator, cause mixing languages is so awful. High Gothic is basically latin, imperium certainly is latin, why give the guy at the head an english title? Target group thought to be unable to handle this little latin?

Interestingly enough:

The Latin word Imperator was a title originally roughly equivalent to commander during the period of the Roman Republic. It later went on to become a part of the titulature of the Roman Emperors as part of their cognomen. The English word emperor derives from the Latin word "imperator", via its French descendent empereur. There is no direct Latin equivalent of the English word emperor, however - the Roman Emperors gained authority from a large group of titles and positions, as opposed to any single title. Nevertheless, Imperator maintained a relatively constant status as a part of a Roman ruler's title throughout the principate (derived from princeps, from which prince in English is derived) and the dominate. -- Wikipedia

It would seem the words do actually have a different meaning.

We all know that Emprah is not coming back and the orks are not uniting until GW go absolutely bonkers.

As to the OP, this is Imperium NOW Vs Orks NOW.

As is, Imperium's taking on all comers, not just orks. With only that single, divided threat, Imperium would win.