Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Wow just wow! I knew this drama would make it here soon enough. There are so many allegations of various cheats it's hard to think where to start first. I will take a shot at it:

codex - I had both the BA and DH codex with me. I asked my opponent which codex he wanted to see and he told me he would like to see the new SM codex which I did not have since I wasn't playing that list. My opponent told me he would like to review the rules for Vulkan and if combi meltas counted as master crafted.

slow playing - I was on the second table and there were no side boards so I had to set my army cases on the counter by the cash register. I did spend a lot of time thinking out my movement phases as I was up against lash with six Oblits and lots of meltas. A couple of my rhinos were wrecked during the course of the game and I was very careful how I disembarked the units to do my best to keep them out of LOS from lash. I never wasted time and meticously played the game. There were a lot of assaults starting in the second turn and that ate up a lot of time. None of my games made it to a sixth turn. The first game was against Nidz and the second against orkz with two big fully complex squads of nobz. It takes a lot of time to roll wounds and keep track of those failed during close combat, plus rerolls for FNP. I just mention the first two games to compare the time taken for them with the third game.

Army list - I had a 2500 point list but had created an 1850 point list out of habit using the new version of AB. I explained this when asked, I had no more than 2500 points total. It was a non issue in the first two games.

BA landraiders and their version of PotMS - it's different from the new SM version. A stunned or shaken BA landraider can move up to six inches straight and fire one weapon at BS2. I never fired all the weapons on a stunned or shaken landraider.

Corbulo and his exsanguinator - I never disembark this HQ from the crusader carrying the Death Company unless it is wrecked or destroyed. Being embarked helps with the range for furious charge and the exsanguinator. So this HQ was never in close combat the entire tournament nor was either crusader ever wrecked or destroyed.

Pile in moves - the rulebook states you ignore difficult terrain and move unengaged models up to six inches, trying to get all unengaged models into base contact with enemy models. There were a lot of rhinos and and terrain so a lot of the assaults were fought in tight areas which made it difficult to move in all of the unengaged models after assaults were over.

Dante and preferred enemy - Dante does come with furious charge built in but if he and any unit he is attached to are within 12" of the crusader holding Corbulo then they get furious charge. The crusader effectively extends the range of Corbulo's area of affect since you measure from the hull of the crusader. See my note above about keeping Corbulo in the crusader. The turn Dante charged a squad of Death Company he hit four times and I rolled two 3s and two 5s so whether or not he benefited from furious charge that turn had no impact on the wounds dealt that round in close combat.

Landraiders and cover saves from infantry - the rules state that a vehicle is obscured if the side facing which is targeted is covered by at least 50 percent. In this case there was a big assault going on between the crusader being targeted and the Obliterators shooting it. The models in assault easily covered at least 50 percent of the side of the crusader being targeted.

Dante and leadership test for losing combat - Dante is leadership 10. He was joined to 4 - 5 veteran assault Marines who were all killed, leaving him alone and reverting back to a lone independent character. There was a question - does the IC immediately revert back to a lone IC as soon as the squad he had joined is destroyed? I thought this was so. A player on the next table said he does not count as a lone IC until the next turn and the negative modifier for wounds taken for
the destroyed unit apply to his leadership. 4 - 5 veterans died and Dante also suffered a wound. So his effective leadership according to the player on the next table would have been at worst:

10 - 6 = 4

I rolled a three so it was a non issue.

I was suffering from a headache during the final match and asked the TO for some aspirin. He gave me three and I asked the clerk behind the counter if she would get me a diet Coke, which she did... That was awesome on their part.

I could have made a couple of mistakes during the game. No one is perfect and they happen. I never intentionally tried to cheat. I do now realize I was playing very competively and should have spent a lot more time showing the rules for my BA to my opponent. He was very anxious to play as quickly as possible though so please keep that in mind. I enjoyed the game and like my opponent and sincerely feel bad that he was unable to enjoy the game also. It's tough in the third round when two evenly matched generals are slugging it out for a shot to the finals. It's easy to get amped up. I did indeed.

My opponent had a few dodgy moments himself. I spoke with him about them during the course of the game to resolve them then and there. I should have spent more time discussing things that he questioned. That was my fault but again I want to point out there was a lot of pressure to play as quickly as possible. With at least four to five simultaneous assaults all occurring over the course of several turns it took a lot of time to roll all the dice.

I have probably failed to cover some of the points brought out and will go back and try to address any that weren't answered by me. Both of my first two games were a blast to play with no problems that I am aware of. My first game was against another fellow WC member.

I feel bad that yet another incident has occurred that shows my club in a bad light. At the Big Waaagh this year I had a perfect score for sportsmanship and one of my opponents told me our game was by far his favorite and he handily won that one. It's easy for me to get carried away at times but please believe me when I say I am always working towards self improvement as a fun gamer to play. I think I have improved but need to keep working even harder. I have since communicated with my opponent from the third round I and believe we have put this behind us. As I have said I enjoyed the game but felt after learning my opponent did not enjoy the game. I think we both could have done some things differently that would have made for a better game and I will focus on that in the future.

I apologize here to all my club mates for this situation and would one day like to have the opportunity to play my opponent from the third round again to show him I am not all that.

G


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Typo/ Dante does not come with furious charge built in but does benefit from this ability if within range of the second HQ, Corbulo.

Sounds like a lot of Roid Rage is going on here at these dolly tournaments.

I find it hilarious that they name the comp 'Ard Boyz' in conjunction with their 'Ard Coat' (read: gloss nail polish) product.

I love reading the drama about ard boyz.

I had to deal with someone who was slow playing, (green I am not saying you did or didn't) but I went to the judge and made mention of it before the 3rd round, not after the game. Regardless, it doesn't change a thing, those who lost still lost and we can all wait until next year and try again. I may also point out if you didn't enjoy the place you played either round at, than play in a different area.

rednekgunner wrote:I had to deal with someone who was slow playing, (green I am not saying you did or didn't) but I went to the judge and made mention of it before the 3rd round, not after the game. Regardless, it doesn't change a thing, those who lost still lost and we can all wait until next year and try again. I may also point out if you didn't enjoy the place you played either round at, than play in a different area.

A very good point.

You know, with so much talk of "slow play" and "not enough time," I wonder if they'd consider going to three hours instead of 2.5? With the new LOS rules, 2500 points, etc.. etc.., 2.5 doesn't get 6 turns in all that much.

calltoarms wrote:

rednekgunner wrote:I had to deal with someone who was slow playing, (green I am not saying you did or didn't) but I went to the judge and made mention of it before the 3rd round, not after the game. Regardless, it doesn't change a thing, those who lost still lost and we can all wait until next year and try again. I may also point out if you didn't enjoy the place you played either round at, than play in a different area.

A very good point.

You know, with so much talk of "slow play" and "not enough time," I wonder if they'd consider going to three hours instead of 2.5? With the new LOS rules, 2500 points, etc.. etc.., 2.5 doesn't get 6 turns in all that much.

I disagree. Unless a player is using a horde, 2.5k can easily be finished in 2.5 hours.

Part of the problem is not all of the prelims were enforcing time limits. I think making it 3 hours would be a good compromise between 2.5 and 3.5 hours, right?

I just finished a 2k tournament with 2 hour time limits. The only game I didn't finish 1 hour early was against a very slow player who didn't know the rules very well.

I'd say that players who know the rules and play at a reasonable pace should be playing it in 2.5 hours just fine at 2.5k.

willydstyle wrote:

calltoarms wrote:

rednekgunner wrote:I had to deal with someone who was slow playing, (green I am not saying you did or didn't) but I went to the judge and made mention of it before the 3rd round, not after the game. Regardless, it doesn't change a thing, those who lost still lost and we can all wait until next year and try again. I may also point out if you didn't enjoy the place you played either round at, than play in a different area.

A very good point.

You know, with so much talk of "slow play" and "not enough time," I wonder if they'd consider going to three hours instead of 2.5? With the new LOS rules, 2500 points, etc.. etc.., 2.5 doesn't get 6 turns in all that much.

I disagree. Unless a player is using a horde, 2.5k can easily be finished in 2.5 hours.

First, aren't we seeing huge number of hordes lately? Orks, guard, nidz?
And second, you know, truth, I don't disagree with you that it SHOULD be enough time. But the fact that it isn't gives rise to this allegation. Increase 30 more minutes and you'd have at worst a few more minutes in between games for judges to get pairings, tensions to calm down, etc.., and at best, you have 1-2 more turns in a game. (later turns always go a bit faster).

Green Blow Fly wrote:Army list - I had a 2500 point list but had created an 1850 point list out of habit using the new version of AB. I explained this when asked, I had no more than 2500 points total. It was a non issue in the first two games.

Can you clarify this?

calltoarms wrote:

willydstyle wrote:

calltoarms wrote:

rednekgunner wrote:I had to deal with someone who was slow playing, (green I am not saying you did or didn't) but I went to the judge and made mention of it before the 3rd round, not after the game. Regardless, it doesn't change a thing, those who lost still lost and we can all wait until next year and try again. I may also point out if you didn't enjoy the place you played either round at, than play in a different area.

A very good point.

You know, with so much talk of "slow play" and "not enough time," I wonder if they'd consider going to three hours instead of 2.5? With the new LOS rules, 2500 points, etc.. etc.., 2.5 doesn't get 6 turns in all that much.

I disagree. Unless a player is using a horde, 2.5k can easily be finished in 2.5 hours.

First, aren't we seeing huge number of hordes lately? Orks, guard, nidz?
And second, you know, truth, I don't disagree with you that it SHOULD be enough time. But the fact that it isn't gives rise to this allegation. Increase 30 more minutes and you'd have at worst a few more minutes in between games for judges to get pairings, tensions to calm down, etc.., and at best, you have 1-2 more turns in a game. (later turns always go a bit faster).

Well, in the last round of the tournament that I just attended, my friend with a hord-ey Guard army fought a guy with a horde 'nid army... and they finished with plenty of time to spare.

I think what he did was make his list on AB, but instead of creating a new list he added to his 1850 list. Then the title o the list said 1850 Blood Angels, but the army total was 2500.

Fetterkey wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Army list - I had a 2500 point list but had created an 1850 point list out of habit using the new version of AB. I explained this when asked, I had no more than 2500 points total. It was a non issue in the first two games.

Can you clarify this?

I don't know GBF, but my guess is, it's the same things I've messed up some times. You create and print a list and the title is completely wrong. Heck, I once created an ork army that read. "Dark Eldar Slave Raiders." Whoops!

GBF, good post, but unnecessary IMHO. One person ranting on a forum does not require a response. The reputation of your group is what it is (To those that like you, a good one , to those that don't, a bad one ). Let it be.

GW should drop Ardboyz tournaments altogether if it causes this much blood boiling drama over a stupid game of toy soldiers. People getting kicked out for making physical threats and other people allegedly cheating? Really? Over a game of toy soldiers?

GW should not drop tournaments. They should just actually put some time and money into learning how to actually run them.

Tournaments should be seen as an investment by GW, but unfortunately they are seen as a burden instead.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:

From what I was told they both had "issues" and did not finish their tournaments.

Food poisoning Friday night - undercooked Kookaburo wings at the Outback led to a very bad night. :(

I showed up pale-faced Saturday morning nonetheless to give it my best shot. I faced off against Eldar in the first round....we had a ridiculous number of arguments that were just absolutely making it a horrendous game; during turn 2, I was setting up for my initial assault - his jetbike seer council had failed to cast fortune, failed the reroll, and I had Ghazghkull and two trukk boyz squads set to pile into them. He'd rolled such a number of 1s and 2s with his lances and missiles, even with guide that his anti-tank efforts were sorrowful; I felt bad for how bad he was shooting.

On the other side of the table, a battlewagon full of burna boyz rammed through and destroyed a wave serpent/falcon? to disgorge guardians; the burna boys piled out to prepare multi-assaulting the guardians and another squad of melta-carrying eldar somethings. I kid you not, we'd run into a ridiculous number of arguments at this point (some of them my fault too), and the game literally broke at this point. I still don't know the right answer to some of our disputes, and if I care enough later, I'll go to YMDC and ask.

I moved in and multi-assaulted....I can't even describe the bunched up stuff and scenario (it was a tight mess) and my opponent accused me of cheating because he thought I could have gotten more models into base contact, which would have prevented another one of my squads from assaulting one of his vehicles. I moved my models back to where they were (deployed outside the battlewagon without having moved) so that I could show him precisely how I had moved them and how, and my opponent told me that it didn't matter, I could have repositioned them anyway I wanted. I offered to let him place my models however he wanted because I didn't want to win and be called a cheater for having done so. He then picked up some of his models and re-arranged them on the board and said something to the effect of (I don't remember the exact words) "If you're going to cheat, then I will too."

I put my hands up and said, "You know what, you can have it - this isn't worth it." I packed up my models, went home, took some more Immodium and slept the rest of the day away.

Now, in hindsight I'm a little frustrated at myself. Typically I don't care what people think about me, but my opponent was someone I already knew and whose opinion I respect and was trying hard to make a good gaming impression with (I know, it wasn't an RTT). Combining that with the fact that I was drained and unsteady on my feet as it was, and was going to have to spend Sunday catching up on work, and something clicked in my head and said, "This is not worth the trouble I am going though."

My friends at the tournament called me last night on their way home and told me that he got into several other big arguments and ultimately didn't do well; I was hoping the massacre I gave up first round by conceding would have at least helped him get placed.

*shrugs* It was just not a day for me to be willing to throw down in an argument. Can't honestly say how the game would have went because he had killed a couple of my vehicles and in return had failed his fortune rolls with his seer council and was bunched up (my favorite) and I had just declared a Waaaugh! and was piling into his Eldar. Its ultimately irrelevant because I conceded my game, and chalked up a loss.

Wow! if that post doesnt sell "competitive" 40K to the kiddos I don't know what will...

willydstyle wrote:GW should not drop tournaments. They should just actually put some time and money into learning how to actually run them.

Tournaments should be seen as an investment by GW, but unfortunately they are seen as a burden instead.

Agreed. Magic runs an amazing tournament structure. Maybe GW can take notes?

On another line, I posted earlier about the ordeal in alabama. Someone else was had some issues besides my buddy.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/251730.page

I think that ard boyz should stay. The tournament just needs a little more adjustment to the format. I feel like if you talk to most people, they would say in general they had a great time and were able to play other people than they normally do.

I think only like 2 games didn't go the full turns at my Semis. At least one of those was horde vs horde.

The problem stems from the fact that GW refuses to produce FAQs and they dont *want* to take notes from wizards because they dont give a damn about tournaments

Its really an amazing train of thought .. A lot of games wouldnt be nearly as popular without tournaments to push people to buy new product.. Thats how MTG works and hell even counter strike is popular because of tournaments

What we NEED to do is convince people to use a standard FAQ such as adepticon.. Until there are standard rules and procedures and actual accountability then nothing will change

Kirasu wrote:The problem stems from the fact that GW refuses to produce FAQs and they dont *want* to take notes from wizards because they dont give a damn about tournaments

Its really an amazing train of thought .. A lot of games wouldnt be nearly as popular without tournaments to push people to buy new product.. Thats how MTG works and hell even counter strike is popular because of tournaments

What we NEED to do is convince people to use a standard FAQ such as adepticon.. Until there are standard rules and procedures and actual accountability then nothing will change

Good point.

Kirasu wrote:The problem stems from the fact that GW refuses to produce FAQs and they dont *want* to take notes from wizards because they dont give a damn about tournaments

Its really an amazing train of thought .. A lot of games wouldnt be nearly as popular without tournaments to push people to buy new product.. Thats how MTG works and hell even counter strike is popular because of tournaments

What we NEED to do is convince people to use a standard FAQ such as adepticon.. Until there are standard rules and procedures and actual accountability then nothing will change

If there was a standard FAQ that was actually based on the rules more people would want to use it.

My list was created in AB with an 1850 point upper cap by habit. I then simply added enough units and wargear to bring the total up to 2500 points. As I have said it was not a problem with my first two opponents.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:My list was created in AB with an 1850 point upper cap by habit. I then simply added enough units and wargear to bring the total up to 2500 points. As I have said it was not a problem with my first two opponents.

G

nor should it be. Any player should be able to read the total on the bottom of the roster. I also use AB, and I vaguely remember there being a box that says total cost.

It's the ultimate hypocrisy ; this is a casual game , wait let's hold a Tournament.


That doesn't even make sense on one hand they insist that it is casual play then run a tournament.

Uriels_Flame wrote:lol, fighting over little soldiers . . . .

Good times. Still waiting to hear about Springfield, MO results. That's where our store went to.

Oh, you went to Metagames then? That's my "local" store (I live in Lebanon).

What'd you think of the store? I don't want to diss my own FLGS at all, but they really don't have the best tables do they? Felt terrain, lots of unpainted stuff, etc. Most of the armies there (including mine, sadly) are unpainted so I guess it makes sense that they don't put any more effort into them, but still.

willydstyle wrote:

calltoarms wrote:

rednekgunner wrote:I had to deal with someone who was slow playing, (green I am not saying you did or didn't) but I went to the judge and made mention of it before the 3rd round, not after the game. Regardless, it doesn't change a thing, those who lost still lost and we can all wait until next year and try again. I may also point out if you didn't enjoy the place you played either round at, than play in a different area.

A very good point.

You know, with so much talk of "slow play" and "not enough time," I wonder if they'd consider going to three hours instead of 2.5? With the new LOS rules, 2500 points, etc.. etc.., 2.5 doesn't get 6 turns in all that much.

I disagree. Unless a player is using a horde, 2.5k can easily be finished in 2.5 hours.

After running a 40 person regional, I think that 3 hours would be a good thing to go to.Less than half the games played got in 6 turns during the time limit.
The problem though, is finishing the day. A half hour between rounds is barely enough time for the TO to get scores recorded and announce the next round. Score sheets don't get magically done at the end of the game, especially when players have to also figure victory points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sidstyler wrote:

Uriels_Flame wrote:lol, fighting over little soldiers . . . .

Good times. Still waiting to hear about Springfield, MO results. That's where our store went to.

Oh, you went to Metagames then? That's my "local" store (I live in Lebanon).

What'd you think of the store? I don't want to diss my own FLGS at all, but they really don't have the best tables do they? Felt terrain, lots of unpainted stuff, etc. Most of the armies there (including mine, sadly) are unpainted so I guess it makes sense that they don't put any more effort into them, but still.

Turn the logic around. If the store doesn't put in effort, why should the players ? A store can encourage players to do better if they do better.

Anyone have the reason why "Tony" got kicked out of the tournament? I've never heard of anything like that.

Any one have a great time since negative press seems to get all the attention. I really was not prepared for this years Ardboyz myself as I have been on hiatus playing other systems and fantasy lately. Showed up with last years list which was 4th edition based and still held my own but did not do well enough for a top spot. I heard thier were multiple Utah stores for Semi's this year.

I had a really fun time. Had the funest game in ages against a guy from Oregon in the 3rd round. Calgar vs Vulkan with such fun as turn 1 scout assaults, an entire amy shooting at 3 land speeders (and only killing 2!), 6 thunderhammer terminators bouncing off a landraider for 3 straight assault phases, and one tactical marine holding the center objective on turn 5 with a "2" result for does the game go on roll.

Otherwise, the other two games were fine, though the 2nd game did start to get slow at the end while I was trying to get the full 24. But I guess that was because he hadn't played against 5th edition assault marines and Vulkan yet.