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An IG player complaining about his codex? What's next? A vanilla space marine player complaining about their codex? Sometimes it seems like no one is happy on this board.

I'll start a positive wave. I like my Ork codex. Lost some options, but I feel like I gained alot more than I lost.

I think the nids are really first in line for needing a codex update. There just seems like there is alot of 5th edition lists that they will struggle with currently. If I was a 'nid player I would be praying for a new release. I'm a Tau player and I'm hoping that we get a new codex to rebalance us, and get some new models into the line. Though I get excited about modeling updates to my armies. It seems like some people are less enthusiastic about the subject though.

Though Necrons really need a plastic immortals box. If you aren't converting some warriors to immortals, you are gonna be paying big time for that squad. What is it right now like 14 bucks per immortal. You wanna field 10 of those suckers, well you better start saving.

Hate to break this to you newbie, but Guard players have complained about their army for a very long time.. longer then im sure you have even known about 40k. Ask anyone here who has played guard for longer then the last codex update and can remember this codex:

And they will tell you the same thing I am telling you.

Lets look at this in another light....
Guard have long been considered a weak army. This last codex gave us a shift in power yes, not a vertical shift like we were hopeing for but a horizontal shift.

So if nothing has really changed then guess what? Its still a weak army.

Then continue to be unhappy. Also insult me a bit more before you leave.

I think the new Guard book is great although admittedly I have not played it much. Strong shooting and some nice close combat staying power. Sort of the opposite of the Ork book.

Tacobake wrote:I think the new Guard book is great although admittedly I have not played it much. Strong shooting and some nice close combat staying power. Sort of the opposite of the Ork book.

Which is good because Orks and IG are played up as being archenemies much like CSM and SM are (though in a different way)

The Fluff talks about the Orks Facing the IG more than any other Faction.

jp400 wrote:Hate to break this to you newbie, but Guard players have complained about their army for a very long time.. longer then im sure you have even known about 40k. Ask anyone here who has played guard for longer then the last codex update and can remember this codex:

And they will tell you the same thing I am telling you.

Lets look at this in another light....
Guard have long been considered a weak army. This last codex gave us a shift in power yes, not a vertical shift like we were hopeing for but a horizontal shift.

So if nothing has really changed then guess what? Its still a weak army.

And that is just one more reason to play IG. If they really were/are a weak army, then the challenge is to figure out how to win with them.

I agree that they are not now, nor have they ever been (even WAYYYY back when they could have predators, land raiders and speeders) an uber army. They are still, when played correctly & with a bit of luck, an army that you CAN win with.

As far as a new 'nids codex goes, I'm 100% positive that something I really like will get the ax and that something new will pop up to replace it. That is just the way it goes..

This thread makes me chuckle. If you look at the different codex updates, you realize that what happens to armies changes a lot. Look at marines. They went from a very flexible, trait-system army to a now, "I'm a wuss. I'll stand and shoot even though I'm the greatest in hth as well."

No, MARK MY WORDS AND QUOTE ME ON THIS, Nids won't even have the features they do now. All of you loving feeder tendrils. They're GONE, replaced! Like I said, things change in every codex, it has to be taken into account. I doubt you'll like what you'll see at first, but you'll learn to enjoy it and play them, or switch armies. Either option will keep you playing and GW will make money.

@Taco:
Strong shooting is great! If you can shoot for longer then Turn 1.

I remember when even a fast army would take a FULL 2-3 turns before they were in your lines. Now, your opponent can be in your line before the end of HIS turn 1 phase With some armies.

Shooting has always been the one thing that guard have had going for them. They are supposed to be THE tank army of the game, but even in the new codex that isnt the case. (espically when in 5th Melta spam is King)

Even with every little dirty trick in the new guard codex, Guard h2h is still a joke when compared to other armies dedicated h2h and thats the way its supposed to be. Guard shouldnt be winning h2h contests, its not what our army is supposed to do.

@ Phill: Leave? Been here for a few years, and am not going anywhere soon. Sorry you dont like me calling a spade a spade, but you come across as someone that hasnt played for very long.

Da Big WAAAGH! wrote:(wolves hit in october then a fantasy will hit in january then 40k in april, new codex every 3 months)

Your math is off. October + 3 Months = February, not April. Fantasy doesn't figure into the "Codex every 3 months" equation. The next Fantasy book should actually be due in November just like last year.

Wow, I've never felt so unwelcome. Maybe I should leave. It's like I took a crap on your couch or something.

@ J'santai Khan:
I agree, The challenge is fun and thats why ive stuck with them for as long as I have. However, that train of though can only carry one so far before you go enough is enough.

I still miss my Company Medic Mounted on a bike.

I think orks also fight SM just as much as guard.
Anyway back on topic I really hope that they don't screw
over synapse or any other hard hitters, what I want to see is a way to destroy heavy tanks(armor 14) without carnifexes, so swarm armies can fight and win. I think gaunts should be able to crush vehicles under their combined weight or something like they did to titains on
macragge that would be badass

Now that is something ive love to see in CGI

Back to 'Nids....

As has been said before, 'Nids are in serious need of some anti-tank firepower outside of VC/BS on 'Fexes.

Plastic Gargoyles would be nice, but only if they make them worthwhile to take.

Biovore/Sporemine KP rules need to be fixed, even if it is a unit that didn't see much play before the KP snafu.

Units overall need to have point costs lowered. It is a shame when the 'Nid horde can be outnumbered by Imperial Guard and/or Orks.

Gavvin Quinn wrote:Back to 'Nids....

As has been said before, 'Nids are in serious need of some anti-tank firepower outside of VC/BS on 'Fexes.

Plastic Gargoyles would be nice, but only if they make them worthwhile to take.

Biovore/Sporemine KP rules need to be fixed, even if it is a unit that didn't see much play before the KP snafu.

Units overall need to have point costs lowered. It is a shame when the 'Nid horde can be outnumbered by Imperial Guard and/or Orks.

In regards to the anti-tank I could see some sort of acid weapon that acts like a melta or an increase in the variety of MC in the army (as in we'll get some different MC that can hunt vehicles better than a carnifex If the hive mind adapts to different situations shouldn't it create something specifically designed to kill mech)

And as far as nid horde goes someone said the same guy that wrote the IG codex is writing the 'nid 'dex so I could see something similar to platoons (Swarms ) which would solve the outnumbering problem.

Platoons are an IG-specific thing. I don't see GW implementing it in any other Codex. What I COULD see happening is allowing multiple Carnifexes in a single HS slot, especially if they kill off Elite 'Fexes. No, I think simply lowering the cost of most of the Troops/FA choices will solve the numbers issue.

A melta-type weapon would be most welcome. Right now, 'Nids really have no reliable answer to AV 14. Sure, CC 'Fexes can run, but you can't roll a 6 every turn. Also, CC 'Fexes detract from your only sorce of high-strength firepower.

Platuan4th wrote:

Da Big WAAAGH! wrote:(wolves hit in october then a fantasy will hit in january then 40k in april, new codex every 3 months)

Your math is off. October + 3 Months = February, not April. Fantasy doesn't figure into the "Codex every 3 months" equation. The next Fantasy book should actually be due in November just like last year.

My local shop owner explained that they come out with a new 40k/fantasy codex every 3 months so there is a new 40K codex every six months I dont know if he is correct or not. (most of the time not) but if he is right a new 40K codex should come out in may... I think. Guard came out in may of this year correct? If so we should have a new codex then in may of 2010

Hopefully the next Nid codex will be very CC-oriented.

- Bring back rending Hormies (even if they are expensive).
- Feeder tendrils as an option for most CC units (even HT).
- Trygon kits with no ranged weapons.
- Make GunFexes more expensive.
- Make Tyranid Fleet faster/better.

GW will obviously change a lot in the rules, both to make Nids more playable (nerfing units that are to good and boosting sucky ones) - but also to sell more stuff.
I.e. a shift to a more CC-oriented army is almost a given.

Hopefully they will not remove combinations (as with rending hormies) - they can always just make these combos more expensive, point wise.

(BTW. Jervis is my hero. The hobby needs more of the likes of him - and less "beardy Tournament players")

Da Big WAAAGH! wrote:
My local shop owner explained that they come out with a new 40k/fantasy codex every 3 months so there is a new 40K codex every six months I dont know if he is correct or not. (most of the time not) but if he is right a new 40K codex should come out in may... I think. Guard came out in may of this year correct? If so we should have a new codex then in may of 2010

He's very, very wrong. Last year in this exact time frame was Marines in October followed by Fantasy Chaos Warriors in November. It's 3 months within each system, not all around.

Platuan4th wrote:

Da Big WAAAGH! wrote:
My local shop owner explained that they come out with a new 40k/fantasy codex every 3 months so there is a new 40K codex every six months I dont know if he is correct or not. (most of the time not) but if he is right a new 40K codex should come out in may... I think. Guard came out in may of this year correct? If so we should have a new codex then in may of 2010

He's very, very wrong. Last year in this exact time frame was Marines in October followed by Fantasy Chaos Warriors in November. It's 3 months within each system, not all around.

OK, I always though he was wrong, just never sat down and though about it... *sigh* The simple life is nice
But if it's three months between each system shouldnt we be due a 40K codex?
How much time is actually pasted between each 40K codex?

Mahu wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I usually don't play VPs or KPs - I play Apoc / Objectives, and Drop Guard is much better.

Then you don't play a third of the game.

Guard are much more competitive now with much greater options. Drop Guard suffered from dropping next to the merry go round of tanks most armies can field to limit their effectiveness, or armies that would simple hold things in reserve and counter attack.

And I'm a better person for it. VP/KP are an artifact of obsolete gaming concepts, like "guess". Apoc / Scenario gaming is simply fun, getting back to the purity of playing toy soldiers, and that's why I'm still in "the hobby" at all.

Don't be silly. Guard are far less competitive than before when you look at Apoc play. Drop Guard don't pay points for Chimeras or Valkyries which give up KPs just as easily as extra units of Guardsmen. Drop Guard simply have more warm, Scoring bodies with mean, nasty guns to kill stuff with. If they want to field tanks, great. I've got Demolishers and Russes & Bassies, and in Apoc, I field all of them at once. If the enemy is in Reserves, so much the better for me.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Mahu wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I usually don't play VPs or KPs - I play Apoc / Objectives, and Drop Guard is much better.

Then you don't play a third of the game.

Guard are much more competitive now with much greater options. Drop Guard suffered from dropping next to the merry go round of tanks most armies can field to limit their effectiveness, or armies that would simple hold things in reserve and counter attack.

And I'm a better person for it. VP/KP are an artifact of obsolete gaming concepts, like "guess". Apoc / Scenario gaming is simply fun, getting back to the purity of playing toy soldiers, and that's why I'm still in "the hobby" at all.

Don't be silly. Guard are far less competitive than before when you look at Apoc play. Drop Guard don't pay points for Chimeras or Valkyries which give up KPs just as easily as extra units of Guardsmen. Drop Guard simply have more warm, Scoring bodies with mean, nasty guns to kill stuff with. If they want to field tanks, great. I've got Demolishers and Russes & Bassies, and in Apoc, I field all of them at once. If the enemy is in Reserves, so much the better for me.

First, "competitive" and "Apocolypse" don't go together. It's no good saying that the new rules let you be more competitive, when you are only playing a system that lets you ignore whatever rules interfere with your narrative. For your sake, and for those like you, I'm glad Apoc makes you happy. But it's meaningless to bring it up when discussing competitive 40k; it's just about as useful as the suggestions to treat Necrons as stubborn to fix their woes, when the topic is a tournament-ready Necron build. It's a solution, but not a solution to the problem at hand.

For those of us still stuck in the mundane and drab world of "normal" 40k, we have to consider things like kill points.

Second, the change to the IG "independent" characters alone made KPs better. Everything else is just gravy.

OK, substitute the word "effective" or "useful" in the Apocalypse context - I used "competitive", as that seems to be better understood on Dakka. And, while Apoc doesn't require specific FOCs or such, we still play with points limits and self-impose restrictions on themed forces or so forth.

Besides, it's not like what's "good" in Apoc doesn't overlap what's "good" for ordinary 40k... Or are you going to argue that Apoc sucktastic Stormtroopers, Ratlings, and Ogryns are somehow "good" in ordinary 40k???

Ratlings are good because their midgets. What's not to love?

Everything about them stat wise... When a normal guardsmen is 5 pts and have better stats in damn near everything while these guys cost 11 pts per model...... yeah....

Fail.

jp400 wrote:Everything about them stat wise... When a normal guardsmen is 5 pts and have better stats in damn near everything while these guys cost 11 pts per model...... yeah....

Fail.

There is much wrongness in this sentence.
And much having nothing to do with tyranid codex releases.

February sounds quite right. Hopefully, Space hulk will be out around Christmas, that would be a present under the Christmas tree. Yay.

Greets
Schepp himself

I think there should be a new rule, you can only complain about a codex you don't play and only if it is about how it is underpowered.

On ratlings, they have a slew of special rules guardsmen don't.

Tyranids are likely being done because they are perceived as a quick fix.

GW is spending a lot more time on non-codex related material, that time demand has probably been forcing designer to take paths of least resistance in finishing projects. so anything that requires minimal work is getting finished first.

If Robin Cruddance is writing nids, then I'm even MORE on board!!!

Look at the last two books put out, and count the competitive lists in each. These are lists that can be tweaked to personal taste, but function almost with separate personalities.

SM
drop pod alpha strike
mechanized multi-melta rush
laserback or assback combat squad hybrid gunline
land raider rush with assault terminators

IG
valkyrie alpha strike
mech vet/devildog rush
vendetta/artillery/platoon hybrid gunline
creed or straken powered guyspam

The books have been good before these last two, but their focus was more simple, with one or two ways to write a list competitively. But these new books have these different archetypical list types, that can share units and hybridize even further.

Here are some things Robin got right that can be applied to tyranids.

Look at guardsman marbo. He is suicidal, sneaky, worth his points, potentially devastating, but not broken. Wouldn't lictors be awesome if they behaved similarly to marbo?

guardsmen. 4.5 points is about pot on for what they deliver. You can customize them with heavy weapons, special weapons, both or none. There are a great many ways to boost their effectiveness with unique army rules. Orders/commissars/special character bubbles/priests. All of them optional, none of them undesirable in all cases.

Good fast attack choices. IG getting good, fast, fast attack choices? When has that happened? It still didn't manage to make them 'feel' less guard-like.

He confidently took vehicle squadrons and made that a feature of codex building. Not just one or two units, but just about anything. I'd bet that we may lose elite carnifexes, only to gain a unit of monstrous creatures. 1-2 carnifexes per heavy slot. I don't think robin wold be afraid to try 1-3 fexes per unit and can get that to work. This will open up elite slots for things we'll want.


Here is what i expect will happen in broad strokes...

Hive tyrants will be fantastic, with a new plastic kit, and a reworked synapse ruleset that supplies more than just fearless to units. Each synapse type could give something special to units, and different synapse upgrades could apply.

Broodlord, if it stays will probably miss the competitive mark, it will probably move genestealers back to troops (which i'll predict they won't be anymore)

Warriors will hit. I bet they'll be looking at them very closely, and making them work out well will be priority. I wouldn't guess cheaper. I'd guess more survivable somehow, with synapse upgrade options and either excellent shooting or excellent close combat. Like nobs on foot grade close combat.

lictors. Will likely be a optional, useful mid power unit. a marbo or single buzzsaw/rokkit deffkopta type power level.

genestealers. Infiltrate, scout, fleet, rending. They'll probably be all kinds of scary to infantry, will fall short of killing tanks, will lose scoring unless accompanied by a broodlord, non nid players will complain about how good they'll look for the points, but nid players will see that the loss of scoring and their inability to open armor will make them nerfed.

gaunts. I'm thinking were gonna see 3 point gaunts. Possibly WoN standard. I have a hunch GW is going to be pushing both kinds of gaunts on us. I'm up for a modernized horde, to put an emphasis on guns that don't start with an 'm' and end with 'elta'

hormagaunts. strength 4 standard troop staple. Most likely. Will get a marked cost reduction, and gain some serious respect.

ripper swarm. Non-scoring, non-offensive, speed bump isn't working for any of the armies that have them. i say they'll miss.

gargoyles. Even if they got a new plastic kit I'd wager these will miss the mark. Nobody at GW has really figured out jump infantry, fragile, not too aggressive, non-scoring jump infantry isn't going to get solved by this book.

raveners. This might be another miss, but has the potential to be a vehicle wrecking assault unit. Think fiends of slaanesh. Lots of high strength rending attacks with beast status could earn them a spot in a competitive nid list. Possibly interacting with some sort of synapse power-up.

zoanthropes. probably become a unit. Might be providers/amplifiers of whatever synapse fun they come up with.

carnifex. My guess is that this guy will stay the backbone of the army. Nids need ranged transport kill. I don't think they need ranged land raider piece of cake destruction. But reliable, cheap chimera/rhino obliteration. They can worry about land raiders with expensive rare shooting answers or just by earning it in CC. Carnifex venom cannons will be turned into some kind of light vehicle can opener.

biovores. i'd look for them to be buffed, and end up good, but be underpowered considering the metagame. I'm thinking along the lines of the thunderfire cannon. Quite good, if people weren't toally meched up.


When you are looking to see what they are going to do with your favorite units, just take a look at the sprue if its a full plastic kit. The rules are written around the planning stages of model production. The carnifex kit comes with two pretty huge guns, expect two pretty big gun options for them. Same with warriors, they have some guns in their kit, along with CC upgrades. For things like the hive tyrant, which will likely get its own plastic box set. its harder to predict.

I would also assume that everything that had wing options will keep them, and they won't get moved to a new slot. but its safe to assume that wing biomorphs will take up 'arm' hardpoints, like they do on the forgeworld products.

I'm really looking forward to a fresh new modern 5th ed. army that has neither meltaguns nor transports. With great transport kill, but not so fantastic ranged heavy tank kill, and melta immunity. That will really stress list builders to bring more than just a few multi-meltas to a list. And no that won't 'just make transports better' I don't use melta on transports with my gunline armies, I use vendetta lascannons. (they also have 2 heavy bolters) meltas are there for land raiders. AS long as a shooty fex can shoot like a vendetta, and you can take as many shooty fexes as you want, then i think we will see some serious meta-game shifting and hustling to include the right kind of guns.


And as to the rumor of nids being early 2010. I think its beyond obvious that its the case. There was an early playtest leak a few months ago, we've heard rumblings of nids being soon since then, over and over. And the shot in the arm that a fresh nid codex would give boxhammer 40k would be a real boon to the game.

Shep wrote:There was an early playtest leak a few months ago...

It was a fake. The author even came onto Dakka to explain the choices he made.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Shep wrote:There was an early playtest leak a few months ago...

It was a fake. The author even came onto Dakka to explain the choices he made.

That's unfortunate. Any chance that BOLS "source" was the appearance of that fake playtest leak? If so, its possible that we'll see necrons early 2010?

BOLS wouldn't claim to have an inside source without actually having one... would they?