Lash is Trash

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**Kingsley**

I don't play Eldar.

**Phryxis**

I don't play Eldar.

Do you play 40K?

Or are you just here to play Unsubstantiated Blurtings 2k9?

**Kingsley**

I play 40k.

**Spellbound**

I've always played Emperor's Children. When lash was OMGWTF OVERPOWERED, I used lash. Now that lash is unimpressive, expected, and planned for.....

.....I use lash. It's a Slaanesh power, I take Slaanesh princes. I occasionally take warp time, but that is ONLY useful if I get into close combat. ONLY useful if I go up front and try to smack my enemy in the face. It's also 5 points more and doesn't help me survive against enemy shooting anymore than lash does.

Although in two more weeks my whole army's becoming counts-as space wolves anyway, so there's not much point in arguing the point of lash anymore. Woohoo!

**Black Blow Fly**

This is definitely a troll thread.

G

**Inigo Montoya**

Fetterkey keeps saying "all you have to do is stay in your transports."

ummm - the oblits and melta toting plague marines have an answer for that. You obviously have no understanding of the real power lash brings to a list. You try to justify your argument with even more ludicrous assertions and expect to be taken seriously.

How long have you played 40k?
What armie do you run?
What color are Eldrads panties?

**Sliggoth**

Fortune is considered a strong psychic power because it can make certain units (councils and avatars to name a couple) extremely resilient. Its not going to be used normally on DA, anymore than lash is normally going to be used on grots.

If we are looking at the eldar tho, doom is certainly a powerful ability that is of comparable power. Except doom doesnt require LOS so can be used from inside of an enclosed vehicle.

Strats to work against lash were asked for:

Runes of warding as I mentioned in my previous post turns lash into a self wounding mechanic.

Mech armies have been mentioned by several people as putting a severe limit on lash.

Lash has only a 24" range, so shooting up a lash prince is actually pretty easy. With T5 and being a MC hes really not that tough. A sorceror takes a lot more shooting to kill, since hes probably with a unit inside a transport..... but then killing a transport plus a unit plus a sorceror takes a lot more out of the chaos army. The downside to this is that a good chaos player INTENDS for his lash units to die to firepower, taking heat off of his other units.

And the best way to handle a lash army is to hammer away at the oblits. If there are 9 oblits then thats a huge chunk of the chaos army and they need to be removed even if there are NO lash units in the army. Thats 675 points, a third of the chaos army at 2000 points, and its the third that most needs to be killed.

Sliggoth

**Sanctjud**

Wait a minute.

Page 1 I said:

Sanctjud wrote:It's not the players that rely on lash you should be afraid of.
It's the players that rely on the army to win, but uses lash as a means to an end.

Then on page 2 GMMStudios says:

GMMStudios wrote:Problem is all good CSM playrs dont rely on lash, its just the icing on the cake.

Only for the OP to respond:

Fetterkey wrote:That's a good mindset, GMM. Lash is an extra trick ...

/shrug.

In addition, this:

Phryxis wrote:Saying Lash is overrated isn't the clearest way to quantify things. I mean, how do you think it's rated? Do you think people consider it an automatic win every time? Yes, that's overrated.

But I don't think people think that.

What I do think, is that it's one of the most powerful psychic powers in the game, probably the most powerful. I'd have to sit down and think on it to be sure, but off the top of my head, nothing comes close.

I know that a lot of people, or at the very least Mosg, agree.

The thing about Lash, is that it can really grow with the cleverness of the player. If somebody is obsessed with trying to bunch units up and pie plate them, and does that to the exclusion of anything more useful, then yeah, it's going to seem overrated.

But consider this: Every turn, we move units, we shoot with our units, we assault with our units. If we assume the average army has about 8 units, and the average game has about 6 turns, that's 144 "choices" we make per game.

Winning a game is all about making more of those 144 turn out to be "right" than the other guy.

So, what does Lash do? Let's assume a dual Lash list gets to use the power about 6 times a game. What Lash does, is effectively take away your opponent's movement, and turn it into your movement. It does that about 6 times per game. So, now you've got only 138 choices to win the game, while the Lash player has 150.

That translates into about 9% more. So, basically he's got 9% more opportunities to win the game than you do. That's not an auto-win button, but it's a pretty serious advantage.

Also, that's probably somewhat of an understatement. In a lot of situations, it's not possible to move, shoot and assault in the same turn. A lot of the time the choice is between those three options, rather than what to do with all of them.

That's all just metagame thinking, though. What it still comes down to is how good your opponent is. Just as skill is measured in how intelligently you move your own units, Lash means it can also be measured in how intelligently you move your opponents units.

What makes the Lash lists strong?

I'd answer that this way: a Lash Sorc costs 125 points. An Oblit costs 75. So, it's 3.33 Oblits for 2 Sorcs. If you could take a Lash list and replace two Lash Sorcs with the hypothetical 3.33 Oblits, would that be a stronger list?

I'd say it would absolutely not be.

Now, if you could drop a pair of Oblits and get another Lash Sorc, would that be a stronger list?

I think it would.

Imo is worth a second look.

@Sliggoth:

Which comes back to the whole: Mech vs. Not mech.
If you are focusing on killing oblits, the user would know, and just fallback to the other uses of lash vs. not mech.

If he is facing against mech, he’ll most likely have oblits either:
-in cover making them a bit more durable (though they still fall if enough pressure is applied)
-Behind LoS blocking stuff, not much you can do there.
-in reserves or in reserves to deepstrike, they waste a turn or two to get in, but will get the drop on tanks.

In addition, there also the melta CSM troop squads rolling forward. If they are not going after Tanks, lash can set up charges for them should the oblits be hammered too much.
If in tanks, oblits are not the only way for CSM to eject passengers out of them.
Just because you play mech doesn’t mean the infantry never touch the board.

My 7 Cents.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The 'power' of a power can also be seen in how much it helps the army.

Ie: fortune only increases the durability of one unit. Every other unit is still vulnerable.

Lash is allowed to benefit EVERYONE in the army, multipl oblits shooting, troops with flamers, charge range for zerkers and oblits.

Lash is much more flexible than Fortune, it may not make it 'better', but it's a subjective subject.

Then there is doom, which is prob. as flexible as lash.
Doom affects the direct destruction of the opponent, while lash sets up units to be at maximum effectiveness, so differs there.
But both are similar in that they help the whole army accomplish something.

My 7 Cents.

**Mosg**

If you are moving your units on foot, there's your problem.

I think this is obviously a troll post. I haven't really seen you post anything substantive to defend your point.

In any case: 2-4 Plague Marine squads with double melta and 6-9 Obliterators coupled with two Lashes makes a Bubble of LOL wherever the Chaos player wants. Even if you start the game completely mech'ed up, those meltas and Obliterators are going to remove your tanks if you want to get anywhere close to the objectives or the Chaos army. You can, if you like, stay out of LOS in your tanks I guess, but that's not really a game winning strategy in 5e, y'know?

**PanamaG**

This is a troll thread until the OP gets over the one liners.

The OP either:

1. Enjoys trolling for trollings sake
2. Played a scrub that used lash and beat it with a battleforce Eldar list.
3. Played a scrub that used lash and lost to it with a battleforce eldar list.

Nothing too epic or meta changing here, move along.

**Gornall**

I'm at work or I'd post up some good ol' Boxxy.

"You was trollin'!"

**Elessar**

You lot make me lol. Lash isn't all that. Get over it.

Chaos are worse than Eldar, SM, IG, SW, WH, DE, and possibly BT.

Try the Lash list without Oblits, and see just how gak it is, huh?

Anyway, 9 Lascannons = Not enough.

**PanamaG**

Haha coming from a Stelek fanboi no doubt!

Vanilla marines are better than CSM!

Now youve got me trolling!

Warptime MoN Princes > LoS MoS Princes - more flexibilty

Man if only I had more room in my sig.

**Sanctjud**

Lash lists without oblits 'can' still work.
-Vindi spam.
-Defiler spam.
-Blastmaster spam.
-Maximizing combat ability sort of armies.
-Some sort of gunline, where lash is used to push people away.

I don't know about your experience, but I think 9 Plasma cannons are much better than using oblits for lascannons...

I use CSM melta squads for anti-tank needs.
Lascannons are prob. a last resort in terms of range fire power.

Chaos are worse than Eldar, SM, IG, SW, WH, DE, and possibly BT.

Maybe some back up to that?
CSM are a functional list much like the other armies that are listed there.

My 7 Cents.

**Arbalest**

The problem I see with Lash Chaos lists when fighting mechanized lists is that they only have two reliable ways to get the enemy out of their vehicles; plague marine units with double meltaguns and obliterators. If the Chaos player uses plague marines to destroy transports, they will have to disembark themselves (to get more than one shot and decent range) and leave themselves vulnerable to enemy counter-attacks. If he uses his obliterators to destroy transports then he cannot also fire plasma cannons at the same target to wipe them out after being lashed.

Is there something I'm missing.

**Kingsley**

This may sound ridiculous, but if you are out of your vehicle (and not Assault Terminators/Nob Bikers/Biker Command Squad/Biker Council), you will probably die. This is true against many armies. Lash is no exception.

**Sanctjud**

PM's 'can' shoot out of the rhino with meltas.
There is the option of termicide units.

Not only that, people do use reg. CSM squads with meltas or plasma guns.

There are also raptors and bikers that some use with meltas, but prob. raptors as bikers are too overpriced for that job, even though they are faster to set up the shot.

In addition, all the lash/oblit/ejecting occupants doesn't have to happen in one turn.

My 7 Cents.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Fetterkey:
Ok, if you are out of a transport you can die.

Lets just say lash allows you to maximize the resources you have in killing them, so there's more left to kill other stuff.

My 7 Cents.

**Kingsley**

Shooting out of Rhinos is not a very good technique for units with meltaguns, especially since you can't shoot after moving 12." Termicide units are much more threatening, but they are risky, can be blocked by a good player, and are a liabilty in KP missions if performing their primary role.

Raptors and Bikers are generally uncompetitive options. One limiting factor for C:CSM is its terrible Fast Attack selections.

**Polonius**

I want to know how you can claim that anything outside of a transport will die, but apparently nothing can kill transports.

**Kingsley**

Against a mech army, anti-infantry weapons are not very useful. Many, in fact, have no effect whatsoever. Therefore, all anti-infantry weapons in an army facing a mech force will target anyone who gets dismounted.

Transports are hard to kill thanks to cover and the improved vehicle damage tables. It takes an extremely significant amount of firepower to take out a transport these days. By my calculations, a BS 4 lascannon has only a 14.8% chance of killing a Rhino; even a BS 4 meltagun within short range has only a 32.4% chance. This is without cover, which is not difficult to get, especially given free smoke launchers. In Dawn of War, transports are even more difficult to kill on the first turn thanks to Night Fighting (unless facing Tau).

**Sanctjud**

@Fetterkey:
I didn't say shooting out of a rhino is a good choice, but it is a choice and has worked out well enough for me in the past when the situation arrises.

Termicides dont' have to be min sized, at 5 men it's not too much of a liability.

Re: raptors: they are functional and can do their jobs well enough. And if they are functional they can be used in an ultra-competitive environment.

My 7 Cents.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cover is nice, but don't forget the 50% rule.
And it depends highly on your gaming groups terrain, which is all over the place if we are making generlizations about these things.

Cover is nice, but it's no way automatic unless:
-Smoke
-You guys house rule how cover works.

My 7 Cents.

**Kingsley**

Yes, using meltaguns to shoot out of the top hatch is an option; however, it's not an option that can be relied upon. Tactical Marines do that job much better.

Non-minimum sized Termicides are obviously harder to kill, but they also cost significantly more.

**Sanctjud**

Why do tactical marines do shooting out of a rhino better? CSM can get a special weapon and combi weapon at 5 models in a rhino.

Tacticals can only get a combi weapon at 5 members.

When we move it up to 10 man squads.
CSM can get 2 and a combi.
Tacticals can only get 1 special, 1 combi and a hvy weapon.
Similar but neither is better or worse.

CSM are a bit more expensive but have twice the number of attacks, Tacticals can combat squad and retain their combat tactics/ATSKNF.

Re: termies: define significantly, 175 for 5 isn't too expensive if we are talking about the 1850-2500 area.

My 7 Cents.

**PanamaG**

Yes because you have to buy ten to do it with one meltagun rather than 5 for a potential 4................

Oh goodness...

In case you dont get it, PMs can have two meltas plus a combi on the sarge and rhino. All for five models, and five PMs are more survivable than 10 tactical marines too.

**wuestenfux**

Lash is trash? That's what you might hope.
It can be game breaking and it was several times swinging the tides to my favor.

**PanamaG**

He could be right I mean I see Eldar placing and winning GTs all the time but never Lash CSM

**CajunMan550**

Lash is crap atm depending what your playing my ig army just shreds both Princes by turn 2.

**PanamaG**

If any unit besides the one getting lashed can see the prince you are playing a noob.

**Polonius**

CajunMan550 wrote:Lash is crap atm depending what your playing my ig army just shreds both Princes by turn 2.

But by that logic it's not lash that's bad, it's demon princes in general.

**wuestenfux**

CajunMan550 wrote:Lash is crap atm depending what your playing my ig army just shreds both Princes by turn 2.

Well, never seen that an enemy kills my two DP's in turn two.
I'd keep both DP's on a flank behind Rhinos or Land Raiders.
If the IG army primarily targets the DP, it will have the CSM in turn 2 in its face.