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KingCracker wrote:Although I agree with you to some extents, youve got to realize that this hobby has alot of different elements in it that draw people to it for some reason or another. And not everyone will share the same opinion on that element.
Sure your into this the the dynamic of it all, and thats fine. I think I like fluff and customizing the most. I play fluffy armies, and read the backgrounds to get more into what Im doing. Others are more into the tournament aspect. They want to build the hardiest build and just beat the pants out of everyone. Painters like to spend WAY more time on how pretty their armies look, and really dont care if a certain squad is ACTUALLY codex correct. Then others are there to get out of the house, and hang with some friends shooting the breeze and blow the occasional vehicle up.
Are any of those people wrong? Not at all. They all enjoy different parts of the same game. And just because you want everything painted to play, doesnt mean that they all agree with on that.

couldn't have said it better myself. i dont paint often. but i dont because i get burned out on it. i enjoy it. but i play orks. horde army. I REFUSE TO PAINT HUNDREDS OF MINIS! IM LAZY!

I Couldn't actually understand the first point at all, from a grammar perspective, but as for what I picked up from your 3 points, which is really just one point, I entirely disagree.

You wouldn't buy a chair and just not remove the plastic cover ever, because you may want to sell it at some point. If you did you would be crazy. I think its safe to say that when most people buy a model set, they get a strong sense of possession, and don't immediately think of selling it on.

I'm not sure what you were saying about the tournaments, probably because I haven't often been involved in them, but I know that most GW shops insist that your models are fully painted before using them in a tournament.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zid said the most logical thing, in my opinion.

I know we can never agree on this issue ( this is like the 3rd one i have posted in )
so just let me state some facts.

-There are players that got into warhammer for Hobby Aspect.

-There are players that got into warhammer for Gaming Aspect.

- A hastily painted army (unless you are a pro) will no doubt diminish the value of the army , not to mention time + paint invested .

Put the 3 together and i dont really think i need to explain further.

I'm with Luna on this. In our gaming group we are pretty relaxed. We go out to have a few games and relax, so painting isn't high on the list of priorities.

That's not to say that we don't paint at all. Out of the 200 or so bugs I have I have painted approximately 40. Our IG guy has his whole force pretty much complete, and our chaos and Tau players are more into converting, so that's currently taking up a lot of their time.

At the moment the wife and I are trying to get pregnant, so when that happens I will be taking a few months break from the hobby and will crack out the paint pots in a big way. Until then it's slow going for me.

There are several reasons why I haven't bothered to paint my armies:

1) I was never a very artistic person and my painting skills are horrible.
2) I do not have a great deal of time to devote to painting.
3) My club generally plays very large games which is why I have almost 10,000 points of both Necrons and Daemonic Legions (11,000 in WHF). This amounts to over 500 models and the task of painting seems overwhelming.
4) I do not really enjoy the painting aspect of the hobby. I much prefer the gaming and socialization aspects.
5) I play in a casual club and no one cares if your armies are painted or not.

Thanks for the responses...

Let me add a few things. Some folks are criticizing my logic here and there, and that's ok. One thing that comes up a lot is that you are welcome to enjoy the hobby in whatever way you choose, and I couldn't agree more. I also enjoy the social element of table top gaming. However, I LOVE TO PLAY, BUT WITH PAINTED MINIATURE AGAINST FOLKS WHO LOVE TO PLAY, BUT WITH PAINTED MINIATURES.

There- I got that out.

I know some folks have been brushing up on their LSAT and are lashing out at me with logic, but I thought the above was a given. If someone loves to paint but doesn't play- odds are I'll never run into them at a gaming table so I couldn't care less about what they do. I am only concerned with the community of gamers that I encounter. I don't think I should, but I'll reiterate a few points. For starters, yes, if you choose to play the game of Warhammer, Flames, et. al. you need a rule book. After that you have a choice- purchase a 50-100 dollar kit of miniatures, put them together, AND PAINT THEM, or have a free piece of cardboard and write ORKS on it. One is cheaper and if all you want is to "play test your army for the 100th time" or "enjoy the social element of gaming" et. al. then the free piece of cardboard is the way to go. Let me give you an example. I feel that if you are going to play football, and spend the money to buy pads and a helmet, then why are you just playing two-hand touch. The same goes with table top gaming.

After that you have a choice- purchase a 50-100 dollar kit of miniatures, put them together, AND PAINT THEM, or have a free piece of cardboard and write ORKS on it.

No one is trying to be a lawyer regarding your logic. The flaw lies in the choices you've provided to the readers. The spectrum of what you can do after buying a rule book and a box of miniatures is much broader then your limited choices. Now... if I want to play with you maybe I only have 1 choice, the former in the list above. But since I am not seeking you as an opponent my options truly are much broader.

I'm very glad you enjoy playing against a painted opponent and paint yours in return. I just don't believe you know what is "right" for every user over the spectrum of what we all consider to be our hobby.

Regards,
John

MisterMoon wrote: However, I LOVE TO PLAY, BUT WITH PAINTED MINIATURE AGAINST FOLKS WHO LOVE TO PLAY, BUT WITH PAINTED MINIATURES.

exactly, i agree.

MisterMoon wrote:you need a rule book. After that you have a choice- purchase a 50-100 dollar kit of miniatures, put them together, AND PAINT THEM, or have a free piece of cardboard and write ORKS on it.

this too.

I normally refuse to play against someone with armies that are entirely unpainted. I know this is a little unfair, but I've put a lot of time and effort into my armies, and if they haven't put any in besides assembling them, then I won't play them.

I think you'd answer your questions if you take both of my posts in more complete broad context. I have given breadth and depth in my discussion, however, you are trying to pigeon hole my thoughts into tightly constrained logic which takes much of my thoughts out of context.

I don't think it's "right" to not paint, but that many rationalize their decision not to. Say what you want, but imo you fall into this category. If someone still has fun playing with unpainted minis good for them. I will likely never play with them and couldn't care less what they have to say about it. However, they are free to do as they please.

I think what happened was that the community of gamers allowed the Corporation to establish the community standards, rather than setting them themselves.

There's a definite community standard issue. Once upon a time - and still in historical communities - playing with unpainted models was simply not kosher. You wanted to play with someone else - you painted your models.

Once upon a time, Games Workshop upheld this standard. Once upon a time, GW would require that models be painted in order to play in their stores.

What happened was that GW chose to pursue more money. They decided that they'd sell more models if they started allowing unpainted models to be played in their stores. And, the community sheepishly followed along. Rather than the gamers saying, 'no, I won't play with you if your stuff is unpainted', they went along with GW's decision.

If you want the community standards to change, you need to be willing to be the guy who makes it happen. When you see someone post a battle report with unpainted miniatures in it, berate them for it. When someone asks for a game with their unpainted army, say no.

At the very least, lead by example. Play with painted armies. Make a point of complimenting other gamers you see playing with painted armies.

Otherwise, you're simply allowing GW to set the standard, and their standard is going to be the one that gets them the most money, not the one that provides the best gaming environment.

Redbeard wrote:
When you see someone post a battle report with unpainted miniatures in it, berate them for it. When someone...

The fact that this came from a MOD is rather sad...

Redbeard wrote:I think what happened was that the community of gamers allowed the Corporation to establish the community standards, rather than setting them themselves.

There's a definite community standard issue. Once upon a time - and still in historical communities - playing with unpainted models was simply not kosher. You wanted to play with someone else - you painted your models.

Even though I'm pro-painting I would point out that unpainted armies were frowned upon partly because of handling raw lead. This simply isn't the health issue it was due to the change over to white metal and plastic we have today.

CT GAMER wrote:

Redbeard wrote:
When you see someone post a battle report with unpainted miniatures in it, berate them for it. When someone...

The fact that this came from a MOD is rather sad...

I'm not a forum mod, I'm an article mod. :p I should write an article telling people to paint their armies.

When i first started playing (back in around 1989) It was an unwritten rule in the local GW that mini's had to be painted to be played with in the store.

There were a couple of problems with this. firstly, it encouraged people to paint things as quickly as possible in order to get them on the table -this resulted in some profoundly ugly armies, and people not really bothering to improve their painting skills. Secondly, people like myself (who had school, sports, and not a whole heap of free time) who could paint well, but not quickly were left feeling ostracized.

I think the current approach (in GW anyway) is great. When i started collecting again, i bought a few things to try out my painting on and get a decent army scheme worked out. Now I'm happy with my paining, i wanted to get a few games in whilst i finish off the painting so, i bought the units i needed a few weeks ago or so. Happily, i can now play with my toys and work on making them look great without the pressure of having to have them painted quickly just in order to have a game!

I can see where Redbeard is coming from and, mostly, agree. A fully painted army should be every hobbyists end goal; It's certainly mine. Unfortunately, i paint at a ridiculously slow speed and, if things go well, i should be finished in about 6 months.

In short, I'm glad that i can play at my local store with a largely un-painted army and not be made to feel like I've farted in an elevator every time i pull out my army case. I am more of a painter/converter than a gamer; i get more enjoyment out of people looking at my painting than i do from winning games

Here is what it comes down for me.

- Do i think painted miniatures are more fun to play against? ( most of the time yes, however... leave the rest to your imagination )

- Will i respect the war gamers that chose to play warhammer for gaming not hobby? Yes i will. Thus it matters not whether they are painted or not.

- Will i think people that doesnt paint are not putting the minis to full use hence they might as well as play with cut out paper representing their armies?

No , because i fully understand and acknowledge that opinion is only based on ones that doesnt mind painting.
Thats like me turning the question around and asking the painters " do you always paint ALL your minis to the best quality to your ability? " If your answer is "no not always" then , please no double standard.

I paint all my minis at my best ability. I have learned ways to turn out painted stuff quick enough to get it on the table and enjoy it

MisterMoon wrote:I paint all my minis at my best ability. I have learned ways to turn out painted stuff quick enough to get it on the table and enjoy it

Yes, but thats you.

But i know PLENTY of people that spends more time on character minis compared to the normal rank and file "table top quality" minis.
How does this phenomenon work then?

I treat characters as centrepieces for my army (you can't imagine how long it takes to convert SoB's :( ). They are the ones that i treat myself to painting after finishing up a few troops or a tank.

I think people spend less time on the rank and file, purely because they generally spend less time on the board. It's a bit like putting a lot of effort into the faces on your models; they are the bits that peoples eyes will be drawn to and, hanece, the bits you want to look best.

J.Black wrote:I treat characters as centrepieces for my army (you can't imagine how long it takes to convert SoB's :( ). They are the ones that i treat myself to painting after finishing up a few troops or a tank.

I think people spend less time on the rank and file, purely because they generally spend less time on the board. It's a bit like putting a lot of effort into the faces on your models; they are the bits that peoples eyes will be drawn to and, hanece, the bits you want to look best.

Yes , but i was trying to make a point to the crowd that thinks if we dont paint the minis ( then its not using the mini to its full potential and we might as well as play with paper )

thus if we dont paint them to the best to our abilities , then thats also not using it to its potential either.

MisterMoon wrote:I paint all my minis at my best ability. I have learned ways to turn out painted stuff quick enough to get it on the table and enjoy it

Come see me and introduce yourself to me @ Phoenix Games as that is obviously where you are talking about.

Name is John Ludlam, you've probably seen me there before if you frequent it with any seriousness as I practically call it my second home. I'd love to meet you so I know that when you do bring your armies I can make a judgment upon your claims to painting. Because you are seriously missing out on some of the funnest people to play with.

But as a whole, unless you bring someone with you, there's no point i you coming up because I don't know anyone up there with a completely painted army on casual game days.

Well I tell you being a former red shirt it is hard to paint all day for the store or show little kids who don't care how to paint makes it hard to go home and paint more even if it is for yourself .

I also have to ask Mistermoon. Are you against people who don't paint at all, or everyone who hasn't painted their whole army?

If it's the former I can understand (to a degree...though I would still play as it's more games for me). If it's the latter then I find myself puzzled. Surely you realize it takes time and patience to get an army ready? Not everyone has time to churn out a battle ready army in a couple of months.

I personally bought about 6500 pts of nids and then started painting. Why? Because I wanted to get some games in with a variety of lists asap.

Works in progress, testing various things out, whatever, that's all understandable. In my opinion though, once you settle into a list we should start to see models getting paint on them. It is far far to easy to have a tabletop quality army to give excuses and never accomplish anything.

I will say I prefer not to play armies that are primarily bare plastic or bare metal models. Seriously, you can't use a $3 can of spray paint? Really? I don't care if you are just testing something, prime that thing please.

There is no doubt that painted armies do look better. However I am a little bit of a perfectionist and it takes me forever to paint models. To paint one model is around 12-15 hours. They do usualy look a little above average.

Anyone that is not a perfectionist, in my mind has no excuse. By using the army painters products. All you need is a few things.
1)one of army painters coloured primers or GWs primer
2)get at least 3 other colours on the models fairly neatly
3)give a dip in quickshade or paint it on for a little more control

I helped my friend get his stuff ready for a tournament last minute with this stuff. We got 40 space marines, 4 rhinos, a landrainder, 5 terminators and a chaplin painted between the 2 of us in around 12 hours each.The steps we took were,
1)Primed models white with GW spray primer.
2)painted metal parts with boltgun metal
3)painted snakebite leather for the leather parts
4)red for eyes, elven flesh for skin
5)blue on rim of shoulder pads, insignias and part of the weapons
6)dipped them in the quick shade

I wish I had some picks to show. Goto the army painter site there picks are around the same quality that came out of what we did.

Well, where I am it's hard to find a decent tin of spray paint so I do all my base coating by hand. It adds a lot of time. That plus my wife HATES the hobby so I get maybe 2 evenings a week to actually do some painting...and that's if something doesn't come up or if I'm not bored or daunted (200+ models does that to a person).

I won't field an unpainted army (or units).
I came into 40k via napoleonics and WW2. The former had a "you want to field it, you paint it" attitude that encouraged the painting (as the period WAS about bright uniforms). The latter was more about getting some colour on them to tell them apart. Green v grey.

I prefer to play against painted armies.

When my club has "photo days", unpainted armies get ignored. If you want to see pics of your armies, then paint them. It works to light a fire under their butts sometimes it requires a raging conflagration though.

CT GAMER wrote:

Redbeard wrote:
When you see someone post a battle report with unpainted miniatures in it, berate them for it. When someone... /quote]

The fact that this came from a MOD is rather sad...

Moderators are allowed to have an opinion and express it.

MisterMoon wrote:I think you'd answer your questions if you take both of my posts in more complete broad context. I have given breadth and depth in my discussion, however, you are trying to pigeon hole my thoughts into tightly constrained logic which takes much of my thoughts out of context.

I am taking you to task in your broad challenge of one person's idea of how to enjoy the hobby. You've tried to explain why but you do it with the expectation that you are "right". I really don't have any questions we will agree to disagree.

I don't think it's "right" to not paint, but that many rationalize their decision not to. Say what you want, but imo you fall into this category.

Before you put me in the category of someone who rationalizes my decision not to paint... I never said I don't paint in my posts or play with painted figures. I just defend those that choose not to. I don't try to put an expectation on others and how they should enjoy their hobby or rationalize why they do or don't do something. It isn't my place.

http://jgemrich.smugmug.com/ http://coolminiornot.com/artist/jgemrich or click on my gallery link here for a few "highlights".

Kilkrazy wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

Redbeard wrote:
When you see someone post a battle report with unpainted miniatures in it, berate them for it. When someone... /quote]

The fact that this came from a MOD is rather sad...

Moderators are allowed to have an opinion and express it.

encouraging people to berate other members goes beyond this, especially when you have a "MOD" title.

Wargaming has always had a segment of people that are elitist. This isn't shocking. Encouraging elitism in a community and encouraging berating other members who don't conform to this elitism is simply sad...

I rarely field an unpainted model. I like to convert and to paint. That being said I also know that the earth doesn't orbit around me. If you refuse to play an unpainted army or against someone with one then so be it, but you don't need to be a dick about it...

Un-painted armies just looks awful.

I dont have time to paint all mine, but Im munching my way through it as best I can.

At least undercoat, foundation and wash.

You can do almost any army this way and itl look better than gray.

But there isnt much need to argue on this matter, unless your actually in each others clubs.