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Sancjud

I get that but I don't see why you'd take it for normal marines but not Scouts. If you put 5 Tac marines in their then the Scouts will hit harder. If you put assault marines in there they'll hit no harder cost twice as much and waste their jump packs that you've already paid for and not be scoring.

To be honest even if you could load it with anything I don't see why you'd put anything other than scouts in there due to the capacity being 5 and the cerberus launcher meaning it needs to be an assault base.

In terms of turn one assaults no body needs them but increasing armies are getting them (the LSS a case in point can assault 45" in turn one).

Sanctjud wrote:@FlingitNow:
It's only 5 dudes with less than power armor... and some just don't like their look.

@Capt. Von Reaper: fare vs. fair
Can't assault out of a Pod cause it's as close to deepstriing the squad as it gets.

In addition: Game Balance... seriously, no one needs guarenteed turn 1 assaults...that would just make everyone go Mechdar and everyone would just go into reserves...

Thanks!

Marines have better durability.
I see the Storm delivering something to tarpit....so durability would be something I'd desire over offensive might.

The increase in WS means being hit less, while attacking less means more to tarpit...ehhh...

I don't like the whole LSS package in general...

I see the Storm delivering something to tarpit....so durability would be something I'd desire over offensive might.

Fair enough, I see it as something to break and enemy unit and sweepin advance them into oblivion, hence the cerberus launcher. The great thing is that as you assault in turn one even if they get away from you they are off the board eitherway they are all dead

But yeah Tarpitting can be good depends what you are trying to tie up as you can't shoot it whilst it is engaged.

15 ish attacks, 7 ish hits.
I don't know... anything they can break is most likely a non-combat unit anyway.

5th ed is about 2 round combats, not 1 round.
Soooo... the scouts are really not going for that.

In addition, it's 'meh' for me as most of the armies I play could care less about a 5 man combat scout squad and their gimmicky Cerberus Launcher...

LSS with five scouts with BPs and CCWs are a great way to catch vulnerable units in a FTA. (T'au, Guard )

They are cheap enough to be a throw away unit(not the LSS) and if they survive they are scoring.

Yea, they catch vulnerable units, but you pay alot for it... it's not cheap.

Costs:
*The points cost for both units.
*Troop Slot and FAST ATTACK SLOT<--that is huge...a whole FoC to a single opentopped AV10 skimmer.
*Cheap doesn't mean 'cheap' when it comes to kill points missions, it's still 2 VERY fragile kill points that are geared for approaching the enemy...and most likely dying.
*Their maximium application requires a more narrow niche than Eldar Aspect warriors fulfil...IMO, which means a high oppurtunity cost.

I find them very effective, they can take out most shooty units even shooty 'Nid warriors. They are a nasty surprise, Tau are basically dead using them againt Tau gunline I can maul one unit and wipe out another with each squad in turn one (I run 2), which rips the heart out of a gunline, can do the same to IG too. If each one blows up just 1 Leman Russ I quids in before even taking into account I can heavy flame another unit of guardsmen (who are all dead on 2s).

The loss of 2 fast attack slots is annoying they should be a dedicated transport. But hey. If you're talking about 2 easy kill points how about a Piranha or a Devilfish. Now that is 2 easy kill points! My SM 1,500 point army comes in at just 10 kill points compared to about 18 for Tau so that is not a major concern.

They damage my opponents fire base and provide a distraction for the 1 turn of shooting they will get before the rest of my army turns up. Which is fine by me

If you don't run any other FA units you can make 3 shock attack units in an army.

three five man BP and CCW scout squads is 370 points

3 LSS are a little less then 300 as well.

2 tactical squads are 400ish

this plus a captain, a LR, and 5 terminators are 1500 points or there about.

LSS deliver the scouts in a first turn rush.(remember scouts are just marines with a little worse then normal save) the LR with the terminators and the captain follow in turn 2-3 and the tactical squads can mop up whats left or hold objectives. any scouts that survive can also take objectives that are far flung

at least 1 LSS should survive the inevitable payback and that is a heavy bolter on a very mobile platform. The scouts are safe from shooting if you ensure that they don't wipe out what their fighting in one assault phase. T'au wouldn't stand a chance against this force.

@FlingitNow:

Anything can be effective, it just depends on the point of view.

Tau gunline? I don’t think that’s a good example. These are not serious lists IMO, the gunline has been swept aside with 5th ed.
If an IG lets a Russ die to LSS/scouts he’s doing something wrong. These are not hard to see coming.

RE:2 Easy kill points:
So… you are comparing a AV10 allround open topped vehicle to:

Devilfish: which IS a dedicated transport, which has better armor Front and Side, carries more dudes and gets weapons/gear that would make the storm blush?
Piranha: at the very least it has better front armor, more than one unit in a FoC slot (5 is a crazy number for them…crazy fun), and includes the drones which offer the Tau much utility, esp. when at that 5 skimmer squad size.

I don’t think they compare that well…nor are they as easy to kill as the Storm.

As to the comparison of Kill points… I don’t see it as that.
Each army has it’s own scale for kill points. In addition, the age of the Tau codex is undeniable.
Inflating your own is never good when we take it at face value.

@Grey Templar:
As to that list… whatever floats your boat.

I really don't think using Tau as an example of what you are up against is a realistic thing in terms of looking at a lists' competitive edge in an all-comers point of view.

These are not serious lists IMO, the gunline has been swept aside with 5th ed.
If an IG lets a Russ die to LSS/scouts he’s doing something wrong. These are not hard to see coming.

True about the gunline Tau but pretty much any Tau are in a world of hurt against the LSS. Sorry I don't see exactly what a IG player can do to prevent this except not deploy his tanks which is fine by me as I won't make the scout move until after he's deployed? So what can he do? He'll have no infantry to surround the tanks and even if he does I can heavy flame them out of the way. It might be easy to see but I don;t get how it is easy to prevent.

You talk about 2 KPs and then compare the Devilfish with the LSS. But the LSS is just one kill point, the scouts are the other were as a Piranha or Devilfish are 2 KPs all on their own...

KPs are totally broken for Tau IMO and you effectively have to wipe out your opponent to win. Stupid system I really don't understand why they didn't just keep it to VPs?

Why is a DF two KPs?

isnt is one KP for the FW and one KP for the Fish

unless you mean 2 KPs in one slot.

He's talking about the gun drones that you have to pay 20 points extra just to get rid of.

@ A combination of the last three posters

Again, different scales, different armies.

Devilfish I use are one kill point. Ignoring LoS weapons are wonderful things.

As to the Gundrone situation for the piranha, I've only run 5 man squads of Piranha... being 2 KP isn't so bad as I'd have 5 skimmers and 10 gun drones, that is worth a kill point.

Even the single squad of 2 have their uses...as it's the way the codex runs.
They are an integral part of the Tau list. The scout/LSS combo is not for the SM list.

___________________________

As for defending against the LSS for an IG player.
-Full reserves is an option.
-There is also using guardsmen as screens.... like blob squads or conscripts.... it's only 1 template from each LSS, so they can remove guys on a totally different side and still keep the wall and let them die.
-Why would he not have infantry on the board? Mech is good, but IG can afford Mech AND having infantry on the board...

As for why they are not using VPs:
1. KP's are easier/faster to calculate.
2. Kp's balance out the objective games.
3. Discourages MSU play.
4. Allows easy mid-battle assessment.
5. Balances out the mass mech lists a bit.

As I see it, all systems will have issues...not everyone will be happy with anything.

The Devilfish is massively over priced as is to add a smart missile system just makes it worse you then have 115 point tank with no weapon of strength above 5 and a max range of just 24".

Yeah taking large squads or piranhas does solve that issue. By why should I have to? Likewise making the over priced devilfish even more expensive doesn't seem balanced.

I still think KPs are broken for Tau as our units are in general small. Crisis teams can only number 3 whilst FW can only number 12. Stick them in a fish and give them a leader and that is 210 points (without bonding) compare and contrast with 10 space Marines in a Rhino that is a KP less, 5 points less, has a special and heavy weapon, is just as good at ranged combat miles better in assault has better armour and has ATSKNF rule...

Anyway I digress....

As for VP vs KPs:
1. Easier yes but it is not exactly challenging to work out VPs you have to make the same calculations when making your list in the first place. Warhammer uses them with no problems.
2. As would VPs
3. Why do you need to discourage this? Particularly when one army basically has no choice but to play this way?
4. Ok I'll give you that
5. Not really depends on the army.

VPs is instrinsically fair as it represents the damage in points value you have done to your opponents army. To say that killing Marneas Calgar plus a squad of 10 Terminators is the same as killing just one Piranha is ludicrous and gives favour to elite armies who field less units. The Tau don't have the option to field large units and with the drones attached to their vehicles already counting as extra KPs they are totally broken using this system. The least they could say is the drones don't count as a KP but your enemy gets the KP as soon as he kills the vehicle...

It means one in 3 games is hugely biased against 1 patricular race (not that the objective games are great for the non-assaulting Tau). Which is just poor planing if you ask me.

Ughh... like I said, the comparison is useless between the LCC/scout combo and then the DF and Piranha.

The are each different and can't be compared objectively. They are used differently and have different options.
You don't 'NEED' to use a 5 man piranha squad, but it's an option...an option I use that makes the whole: 2 KP issue moot. That was all it was implying...just to illustrate it was not a good idea to pull them into the discussion.

Competitive lists don't really use that many FW in a fish though.

1. True, but it does require pen and pencil for a majority of people...and issues with numbers are a bit wider... most list are around 20 ish points to consider...while 1500 is a bit different.

I don't know about you, but I've been screwed before at a tourney when an opponent couldn't count right...
Sure he could screw up counting to 20, but it's easier for me to count his stuff, esp. if I don't know his codex inside out.

So..... it's an easy thing for BOTH parties.

2. It's different... the old VP system existed in the objective games as well....which means you could claim several objectives and still lost. This time around they are completely seperate ('Ard Boyz and new mission packet aside).

3. Why? I don't know...but it does. I don't know I find MSU unrealistic...and yes, it may be a competitive environment, but you want people to make lists with considerations to the extremes.

If you want to make an extreme list, it should do well in some areas and not others...that's essentially a description of an extreme...and the KP vs. Objectives is just another sort of 'check' for army building.

5. Either way, mass mech armies to go up in kill points as it's essentially doubled.
KP makes them think twice about going too extreme...which sort of links back into 3.

__________________________

Well... in certain situations that Piranha is worth much more than Chalgar and 10 termies...
It's situational...

That piranha can win/draw a game for you as much as Calgar and posse could.

Which is prob. the view point why they could be worth the same two KP's.

Tau large units:
Kroot, Firewarriors funny enough, Piranha, Lots of Crisis Suits/broadsides with shield drones, Farsight Posse.
Sure not all are competitive, but Tau do have places to dump points on...

Fair enough on 2. I was suggesting using VPs instead of KPs only for annihilation the other missions would work they way they used to.

3. You can't build a competitive or fluffy Tau army with low KPs... Stopping Drones count as an extra KP would at least bring some balance in.

5. I wouldn't say that is necessarilly true particularly if you are IG. 3 Leman Russ in a Squad is still just 1 KP... The game seems intentional scewed towards mech lists anyway and whilst you could argue you are doubling the KPs for some army types, for Tau (the least competitive army as is) you are trippling them...

You are clutching at straws if you are comparing an army losing it's overall commander, who is also one of the 5 leaders of the entire race and 10 of it's finest genetically enhanced super warriors in its best equipment to losing 1 scouting vehicle...

Yes Tau can dump points, but other races can spend points on lean lists with large units. For instance the IG player with 2 units of two battle tanks at 400+ points each. Rather than Tau artificially wasting points on drones for squads or taking a farsight list that completely stuffs his entire force options...

5. I was not clear in my definition of mech armies.
Traditionally, I see it as a major concentration of APC's for infantry.

As for the other FA/HVY tanks they are not what I was talking about when I mentioned you essentially double your KPs when meching up.

As for triple Russ 1KP vs. Tau hvy support....:that's why they have broadsides?
I don't know, most lists I see include Broadsides if they need to saturate their list with multiple railguns in the hvy support section.

__________________________

You are clutching at straws if you are comparing an army losing it's overall commander, who is also one of the 5 leaders of the entire race and 10 of it's finest genetically enhanced super warriors in its best equipment to losing 1 scouting vehicle...

I'm not talking about a one on one.
Think about it a bit harder and in the context of the army as a whole.

In terms of objective games, or even kill points.
It doesn't matter what points or quality a unit is...as long as it can contest as long as it has the ability to go on the offense or defense it will have a chance at changing the outcome of a game.

That one piranha can win the game as much as Calgar and crew can win/draw a game.
Think about it.

Turn 7, it turbos to contest an objective. Bam, you either have Calgar kicking Tau off of theirs but they don't score.
You draw.
Etc.

Now if you are talking about a one on one, there would need to be more details about what weapons. The termies have...are the assault termies or tacticals?

I mean... if it were Calgar and assault termies, the pirahna would out pace and out range them with a burst cannon... given enough time it would kill that squad.
If it were tactical termies... then the storm bolters can't do anything, and it would depend on the AssCannon(S) and CML(S) which are perfectly able to down the piranha...but this match up is rediculous and not what I was suggesting.

Their comparison is useless.
Calgar and posse are worth alot of points sure...but application is a very important aspect that one may not be able to quantify.

Spawn/lesserdaemons/possessed have won me games, yet everyone says they suck... Much like how people say Necrons and Tau are shafted, but they are more than able to win, it just depends on the player (and lot of other variables as well but that's the same for all armies).

Much like how a piranha can win/draw a game and be more 'worth it' than Calgar and his posse.
'Worthiness' is in the eye of the beholder...er...something like that .
__________________________

wasting points on drones for squads

/shrug... our experiences differ.
It doesn't have to be 100% stuffed with drones, but a good amount makes crisis/broadside squads very durable to the normal way of taking them out.

In addition, it allows the Tau player to be a little more loose with their deployment and usage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back on topic:

Open Topped Rhinos: only if they cost... 75+ points. But it's not 'worth' bring back the Rhino Rush of old.

Rhino's are good as they are...any better and they'd be more no-brainer than they are now, which is a bad thing IMO.

Wait a minute.

Don't the drones only count for a KP if they detach from the vehicle?

No. it makes no sense with regards to the fluff. If BA rhinos get overcharged engines that enough. Rhinos are not meant for assault.

Don't the drones only count for a KP if they detach from the vehicle?

Which they have to do in the event of the vehicle being destroyed...

No. it makes no sense with regards to the fluff. If BA rhinos get overcharged engines that enough. Rhinos are not meant for assault.

Agreed

Don't they take hits just like passengers?

Yep, so they could, in essence, die at the same time the vehicle does. Two KP in one shot.

What kuro_khan said

'Tis stupid I know, you've actually got a fair chance of killing one and with their leadership that is not a bad chance at 1 shot 2 KPs (assuuming you blow up the 'Fish)...

Particularly if you blow it up turn one as they flee 3d6"...

Is broken needs fixing!

Well...have you not seen anyone use the gun drones to good effect?

If they are worth a kill point, then they can contest.
That, for me, balances it out.

In addition, they work as disruption units, and blocker units.
Or you can get a (Murder/War)fish [whatever the kids call it these days] and have fun with the SMS.
I don't know why there is hate for it, but it's a pretty effective weapon.
It did very well in the 'Ard Boyz tournys in my area.

Back to how we got to DevilFishes...
You get 3 KP for the FW, devil, gundrones.
You get 2 KP for Scouts and LSS.

You use 1 FoC for the FW, devil, gundrones.
You use 2 FoC for the Scouts and LSS.

So, with respect to personal prefences, it depends on what you are looking to do: More KPs for less FoC or More FoC for Less KP...
But lets not compare those two...they are horribly different things.
_____________________________

Back on topic: No to the open topped rhino.

Sanctjud wrote:
Back on topic: No to the open topped rhino.

QFT

Back on topic: No to the open topped rhino.

Hey at least there is one thing we can all agree on!

SMS is good but compare and contrast with the Predator at 85 points... It makes the Devilfish horrendously overpriced (if it is not already)...

Any who, back on topic again the Open topped Rhino does not fit with the SM army and will mean a return to the dull Rhino rush days of old. Having fixed that problem whhy break it again?

Totally.

agnosto wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Chaos needs some kind of edge in assault over the many, many imperial codexes, otherwise there's no point to playing Chaos save generic daemons and higher costs. Expensive? Yes. At least the option is there though.

To the OP, a great deal about 40k rules doesn't make sense but are put in place so all armies don't play the same (that would be extremely boring). What you're suggesting is to take something that benefits Orks and give it to SMs with no downside. SMs already have better weapons and vehicles than Orks..

QFT. Agnosto's hit the nail on the head; it's easy to imagine a mob of Boyz whizzing around you in circles on their red Trukk and roaring with glee as they spray you with Shoota fire... can you see the grim, faceless Angels of Death doing that? No, they'd approach the enemy in the safety of an armored transport before exiting to complete their mission.

Or, from a gaming standpoint, the open-topped aspect and higher speed compensate for the fact that Ork vehicles have inferior weapons and aren't as durable.