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tiekwando wrote:I think what one side is arguing is that the set {1,1,4} can be divided into {1,1}{4} or any other way you would like. For instance {1}{1}{4} if you wanted roll 3 to wounds rolls at once for instance.

While the other side is saying that {1,1,4} has to stay that way, or, assuming you don't roll single dice at a time, can be divided into {1}{1}{4} as each dice represents a single set, but for convenience sake have been thrown together.

I would agree with you if that were how leadership tests work.
In the case of wounds each die is it's own result
A leadership test result is the result of 2d6
RoW the result is on 3d6

There is not dividing the result up, so that it suits you.

But you are right those are the two sides of the argument.

sbeasley wrote:

Eldar Own wrote:@sbeasly. From your sig i can see you are an eldar player. If this was in a tournament and your runes of warding made a dice roll of 1,1,x. I'm sure you'd argue it was Perils of the Warp, against your argument.

Why would you assume that I would want to cheat my opponent?

Because your posting manner has been consistent. Consistent in the fact that every single post you make is contrary to what the rules say.

Really.

Okay I've looked at the rule book. I've quoted the rules verbatim. It says the result, not contains or any other such language that would even hint that you could break up the result so that it fits into your paradigm.

So I suggest that you read the relavant rules before posting your snarky comments about me trying to cheat anyone.

Gwar! wrote:Because your posting manner has been consistent. Consistent in the fact that every single post you make is contrary to what the rules say.

Now that is a fallacy in logic.

sbeasley wrote:Now that is a fallacy in logic.

Or, just perhaps, it is Hyperbole (pronounced /haɪˈpə:rbəli/, from ancient Greek "ὑπερβολή", meaning excess or exaggeration) is a figure of speech in which statements are exaggerated. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally.

Note, however, that hyperbole is in fact a logical fallacy. In this case, the "allness" fallacy.

In short, you're both right, everyone wins. Yay Dakka!

This would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

You can't get a "result" of double 1's POTW with Runes of Warding because you roll three dice. The lowest result you can get is a three.

Result: in mathematics, the final value of a calculation (e.g. arithmetic operation), function or statistical expression.

Attempting to pull out two dice out of three and apply POTW is not adhering to the rules because only part of the dice roll is not the result, but a subset of the results.

The Green Git wrote:This would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

You can't get a "result" of double 1's POTW with Runes of Warding because you roll three dice. The lowest result you can get is a three.

Result: in mathematics, the final value of a calculation (e.g. arithmetic operation), function or statistical expression.

Attempting to pull out two dice out of three and apply POTW is not adhering to the rules because only part of the dice roll is not the result, but a subset of the results.

Using that logic you cannot get double 1s on two dice even, as you get a two.

The Green Git wrote:This would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

You can't get a "result" of double 1's POTW with Runes of Warding because you roll three dice. The lowest result you can get is a three.

Result: in mathematics, the final value of a calculation (e.g. arithmetic operation), function or statistical expression.

Attempting to pull out two dice out of three and apply POTW is not adhering to the rules because only part of the dice roll is not the result, but a subset of the results.

Exactly what I've been saying.

You would be right, except this is not a calculation, function or statistical expression. Please define your terms and try again.

sbeasley wrote:

The Green Git wrote:This would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

You can't get a "result" of double 1's POTW with Runes of Warding because you roll three dice. The lowest result you can get is a three.

Result: in mathematics, the final value of a calculation (e.g. arithmetic operation), function or statistical expression.

Attempting to pull out two dice out of three and apply POTW is not adhering to the rules because only part of the dice roll is not the result, but a subset of the results.

Exactly what I've been saying.

So you agree that a result of 2 doesn't trigger PotW then, because as kirsanth pointed out, a result of 2 by that logic is not a double 1.

also dont ignore DE combat drugs, Is a DE lord that takes more than 3 combat drugs not able to take a wound or die?

Afterall according to you its not possible to roll a double on 3 dice, so i assume you cant roll a triple on 4+ dice following your asinine logic, so i guess every de player should just take all 6 drugs form now on ... lol or not.

sbeasley wrote:

Eldar Own wrote:

sbeasley wrote:Why are you bringing WHFB into this? This is WH40K.

The context i used was a good example. -edit-RAW says on the roll of a double one. The dice come up as 1,1,2. Oh, i have rolled a double one and also rolled a 2.

BGB: Perils of the Warp wrote:If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker.

Where does RAW say on a roll of a double 1. If it did I would agree. I've quoted the book. It says the result. The result is 1,1,2. The result is not and never will be a double 1.

The result of the psychic test is what you roll.

What you roll = the result of your rolling.

If you roll double 1s your result is double 1s.


If you burn coal is the result a release of carbon dioxide? Yes, it is. "But it also produces water vapor!" That doesn't matter, it has still resulted in carbon dioxide, and thus it is a true statement. It didn't ask if the result was a release of nothing but carbon dioxide.

Great we determined that PotW never activates /sarcasm.

The result of 1, 1, 3 is not double 1 either. It contains a double 1 but isn't the result. Until you find language that changes the reading of the rule, or how GW interprets the meaning of result can be split up how you see fit. You have to consider the whole result.

The rule is very clear. There is no other interpretation.

Thank you for reminding me to go check on getting a facepalm ork icon made.

kirsanth wrote:

The Green Git wrote:This would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

You can't get a "result" of double 1's POTW with Runes of Warding because you roll three dice. The lowest result you can get is a three.

Result: in mathematics, the final value of a calculation (e.g. arithmetic operation), function or statistical expression.

Attempting to pull out two dice out of three and apply POTW is not adhering to the rules because only part of the dice roll is not the result, but a subset of the results.

Using that logic you cannot get double 1s on two dice even, as you get a two.

Exactly. You're not asked to find the sum of the dice, you're asked to find if there are two dice that have rolled 1s. And there are.

sbeasley wrote:Great we determined that PotW never activates /sarcasm.

The result of 1, 1, 3 is not double 1 either. It contains a double 1 but isn't the result. Until you find language that changes the reading of the rule, or how GW interprets the meaning of result can be split up how you see fit. You have to consider the whole result.

The rule is very clear. There is no other interpretation.

Y'know, I love how you just ignored every point made since your last post.

If you aren't going to refute the valid arguments of others, I suppose we'll just have to assume you are unable to. Debate's over!

kill dem stunties wrote:also dont ignore DE combat drugs, Is a DE lord that takes more than 3 combat drugs not able to take a wound or die?

Afterall according to you its not possible to roll a double on 3 dice, so i assume you cant roll a triple on 4+ dice following your asinine logic, so i guess every de player should just take all 6 drugs form now on ... lol or not.

When was DE written? When was 5th Edition written? A lot has changed since then, but since you asked.

The difference is that DE Combat Drugs specifically says that if a double is rolled on the dice. It doesn't mention anything about the result.

a double 1 or a double 6 result can only occur when 2d6 are being rolled. Once 3d6 are being rolled the result must include all three dice.

My logic still stands. Please refrain from your degrading comments. It's okay to disagree, just state your facts and let the chips fall where they may.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeRzErKeR wrote:Y'know, I love how you just ignored every point made since your last post.

If you aren't going to refute the valid arguments of others, I suppose we'll just have to assume you are unable to. Debate's over!

Sorry I missed one. I hope that clears it up for you.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

sbeasley wrote:

BGB: Perils of the Warp wrote:If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker.

Where does RAW say on a roll of a double 1. If it did I would agree. I've quoted the book. It says the result. The result is 1,1,2. The result is not and never will be a double 1.

The result of the psychic test is what you roll.

What you roll = the result of your rolling.

If you roll double 1s your result is double 1s.


If you burn coal is the result a release of carbon dioxide? Yes, it is. "But it also produces water vapor!" That doesn't matter, it has still resulted in carbon dioxide, and thus it is a true statement. It didn't ask if the result was a release of nothing but carbon dioxide.

You have yet to refute this. If you roll three dice and two ones show, you have a result of double ones. You also have two results of one, a result of some other number, a result of a one and some number, and a result of two ones and some other number. There are multiple results, one of which is double ones.

The difficulty arises because GW wrote "the result", instead of "a result". I suppose there is an argument to be made that by using "the" instead of "a", the writers imply the more specific, mathematical term meaning "endpoint of the function", but I feel that argument is extremely weak; for one thing, the mathematical "result" would require you to ADD the dice together, in which case one could never roll a "double one" no matter how many dice they used, making it impossible to suffer a PotW attack, ever. For another, rolling dice is not a mathematical function, and thus you cannot apply mathematical definitions to it.


EDIT: Also, "result" is synonymous with "product". Can we all agree that double ones are a "product" if you roll three dice, two of which give a result of one? If so, then double ones are also a "result", according to the dictionary.

Why is this thread still up, suffering a perils of the warp attack on any roll of 12 or higher. Fail.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:
If you burn coal is the result a release of carbon dioxide? Yes, it is. "But it also produces water vapor!" That doesn't matter, it has still resulted in carbon dioxide, and thus it is a true statement. It didn't ask if the result was a release of nothing but carbon dioxide.

You have yet to refute this. If you roll three dice and two ones show, you have a result of double ones. You also have two results of one, a result of some other number, a result of a one and some number, and a result of two ones and some other number. There are multiple results, one of which is double ones.

The difficulty arises because GW wrote "the result", instead of "a result". I suppose there is an argument to be made that by using "the" instead of "a", the writers imply the more specific, mathematical term meaning "endpoint of the function", but I feel that argument is extremely weak; for one thing, the mathematical "result" would require you to ADD the dice together, in which case one could never roll a "double one" no matter how many dice they used, making it impossible to suffer a PotW attack, ever. For another, rolling dice is not a mathematical function, and thus you cannot apply mathematical definitions to it.


EDIT: Also, "result" is synonymous with "product". Can we all agree that double ones are a "product" if you roll three dice, two of which give a result of one? If so, then double ones are also a "result", according to the dictionary.

The coal example is describing the rules for Runes of Witnessing. Take 3d6 from that result take the two lowest dice and that is your result. The higher number is like the water vapor, the lower numbers is your CO2, what we really care about, and thus can more easily get a PotW result of a double 1.

To clear up my thinking

DE Combat Drugs: {1} {1} {2} each die is it's own result, and thus can result in {{1},{1}} or double 1
RoWit: {1,1,3} but you look within the result to get a new result {1,1} PotW
RoWard: {1,1,3} the result is not a double 1, and it does not total 12 or greater so no PotW

You are correct that they wrote "the result" which is singular, which is why I take it as the end product. The mathematical argument still stands as a result is not always a singular value, as it can be a set as I have shown in curly brackets, but the result set has to be taken as a whole. Results sets can be combined though as in the DE Combat Drugs example, they just can't be taken apart unless given permission to do so as in the RoWit example.

Excellent debate by the way. It's your counter point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Why is this thread still up, suffering a perils of the warp attack on any roll of 12 or higher. Fail.

Because there are those who view {1, 1, x} results in a PotW, because of the double 1 within the result set.

sbeasley wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Why is this thread still up, suffering a perils of the warp attack on any roll of 12 or higher. Fail.

Because there are those who view {1, 1, x} results in a PotW, because of the double 1 within the result set.

You mean those who follow the rules then.

Gwar! wrote:

sbeasley wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Why is this thread still up, suffering a perils of the warp attack on any roll of 12 or higher. Fail.

Because there are those who view {1, 1, x} results in a PotW, because of the double 1 within the result set.

You mean those who follow the rules then.

That would be a matter of opinion, and in mine, it is you who are not following the rules.

It would be appreciated if you would actually refute my claim, or find fault in my logic, yet you haven't. You just increase your thread count, so you can say Lookie here my thread count is higher, so I'm right.

sbeasley wrote:It would be appreciated if you would actually refute my claim, or find fault in my logic, yet you haven't. You just increase your thread count, so you can say Lookie here my thread count is higher, so I'm right.

You say {1,1,x} is not a double 1 and an x. By That logic, a {1,1} is also not a double one

Gwar! wrote:

sbeasley wrote:It would be appreciated if you would actually refute my claim, or find fault in my logic, yet you haven't. You just increase your thread count, so you can say Lookie here my thread count is higher, so I'm right.

You say {1,1,x} is not a double 1 and an x. By That logic, a {1,1} is also not a double one

I did not say that.
{1, 1, x} is a double 1 and an x. Clearly that is not {1, 1} which is a double 1.

I'm not the one who is trying to split a result, where I'm not given permission to do so.

sbeasley wrote:The coal example is describing the rules for Runes of Witnessing. Take 3d6 from that result take the two lowest dice and that is your result. The higher number is like the water vapor, the lower numbers is your CO2, what we really care about, and thus can more easily get a PotW result of a double 1.

To clear up my thinking

DE Combat Drugs: {1} {1} {2} each die is it's own result, and thus can result in {{1},{1}} or double 1
RoWit: {1,1,3} but you look within the result to get a new result {1,1} PotW
RoWard: {1,1,3} the result is not a double 1, and it does not total 12 or greater so no PotW

{1,1,3}, {1}, {1}, {3}, {1,1}, {1,3}, and {1,3} are all the result of the Psychic Test. And they're all results. The plurality of the word "result" doesn't matter, because the word "result" needn't simultaneously denote every creation by the verb; it may refer to any and all. Permission to "split the result" isn't necessary, because the result cannot be split; it remains the result no matter how it is "broken up".

If rolling doubles isn't the result of the Psychic Test, what was the cause of rolling doubles?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something tells me this is the kind of thread that will go on for ten pages, though.

No way. It will be locked before then.

Bonus points to anyone who looks up "results".

The set answer that applies in math has the two 1s become a 2 - by calculation.

Gwar! wrote:

Altimera wrote:RoWa cause a PotW if you roll a 12 or higher (note that it could be due to but there are plenty of combinations on the dice to cause a 12+)

Yes, very true. Had a bit of a brainfart there

A Roll of 6,6,x will cause a PotW as per the BRB, however, any roll of 12 or more (for example, a 1,5,6 / a 4,4,4 or a 5,5,4) will trigger a PotW because of the RoW.

I just had that situation today when my eldar faced off against space puppies. My opponent rolled a six, four, and three, totaling thirteen. I thought it had to be double sixes and rolling 3x dice just gave you a better chance at getting that second six.

Okay Psychic Tests are normal Leadership Tests. Under Leadership Tests it states:

BGB pg8 wrote:In the case of a Leadership test, roll 2d6 (two dice added together, as explained earlier). If the result is equal to or less than the model's Leadership, the test is passed.

Here we see that the result is the sum of the dice. That is the only result.

BGB pg50 wrote:If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker.

We know from the Leadership rules that the result is actually the sum of the dice rolled. In the case of a normal 2d6 Psyker (Leadership) Test a double 1 is really a result of 2, and a double 6 is really a result of 12 according the result being defined under the Leadership portion.

Now one could come to 2 conclusions at this point. Either no one ever suffers PotW, because the result is either 2 or 12, and not double 1 or double 6, or you can assume that by double 1 they meant a result of 2 and double 6 they meant a result of 12.

And on 3d6 the lowest result is 3.

sbeasley wrote:And on 3d6 the lowest result is 3.

So what? It's the Double 1 that causes a PotW, not a result of 2.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:I just had that situation today when my eldar faced off against space puppies. My opponent rolled a six, four, and three, totaling thirteen. I thought it had to be double sixes and rolling 3x dice just gave you a better chance at getting that second six.

RoW states that any result 12 or over causes a PotW. Rolling a 6,6,x is always over 12 anyway, so it is a moot point.

sbeasley wrote:Okay Psychic Tests are normal Leadership Tests. Under Leadership Tests it states:

BGB pg8 wrote:In the case of a Leadership test, roll 2d6 (two dice added together, as explained earlier). If the result is equal to or less than the model's Leadership, the test is passed.

Here we see that the result is the sum of the dice. That is the only result.

It doesn't say only. All things that come of the dice roll are the result of the dice roll, and in this case it is simply referring to the sum. The sum is the result of the Psychic Test in this instance, because that's what it's asking you to find, just as it asks you to find the number of 1s rolled later on.

BGB pg50 wrote:If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker.

We know from the Leadership rules that the result is actually the sum of the dice rolled. In the case of a normal 2d6 Psyker (Leadership) Test a double 1 is really a result of 2,

"A double 1" is not a sum; it's not a number. You cannot add any two numbers together and get "a double 1".

By your logic, Perils of the Warp should be impossible. However by mine, Perils of the Warp is fully possible. That seems to imply that Games Workshop does not believe the sum to be the only possible result of the test (nor should they).