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Not nearly 50%
< 40%

Also, any ork general that has played warhammer before is not going to mash his squads together for your templates.

You guys come up with this theoryhammer and imply that you are playing an idiot that doesn't know how to deal with rhino spam. Orks easily deal with it. Sure, you will kill ~60 or so on the way in. Big deal. The other 120 are in your face and you model count is just too low to deal with it. Besides, if there are 180 orks and 2 kff meks, then there are a wall of kans you need to deal with before you can shoot the boyz. That will take a ull turn of your shooting and a bit of the next. By then, the sea of green will be rolling on you.

Inigo Montoya wrote:Not nearly 50%
< 40%

Also, any ork general that has played warhammer before is not going to mash his squads together for your templates.

You guys come up with this theoryhammer and imply that you are playing an idiot that doesn't know how to deal with rhino spam. Orks easily deal with it. Sure, you will kill ~60 or so on the way in. Big deal. The other 120 are in your face and you model count is just too low to deal with it. Besides, if there are 180 orks and 2 kff meks, then there are a wall of kans you need to deal with before you can shoot the boyz. That will take a ull turn of your shooting and a bit of the next. By then, the sea of green will be rolling on you.

And this list deals with land raiders how? Russ heavy IG how? 180 ork boys won't even really stand up well to a 'standard' space wolf army nowadays.

It's not debatable that you could design a list specifically designed to beat maximum overdrive, but you get your head handed to you by a dozen commonly played lists.

Also, while this list will be at a disadvantage in kp missions, it has no disadvantage in dawn of war deployments. I say that sorta evens out the mission issue.

Shep has a good point and it's something I have been thinking about as well. Is 40k really coming down to first turn to much?

Now off to price 9 razorbacks...

A lot of theoryhammer going on in this thread.

Really, this list is just nasty. It's like SoB immolator spam or an IG Chimera spam. There are so many damn vehicels its daunting and just downright hard to take down. You can "theory" you can take out 11 vehicles in the first turn with your army. Put a little reality in there (like being to see every vehicle behest of cover, or cover saves, etc. etc.) and you realize that damn, that's a daunting task.

I think all MSU / Razorback-type spams are just nasty. That many tanks and that much firepower.... It's not good for the receiving end.

This list really doesn't have good anti-horde. You can say what you want about the frag missles, but there's no way you get 7 hits with a direct hit unless the enemy leaves his guys nearly in base to base contact. I play IG and I'd say I average 7 hits with the large blast template on a direct hit. Six of those missle shots are also on 3 AV 10 vehicles. Trying to kill any enemy in cover is a problem for this list and it really doesn't have good assault elements to get the job done either. If you're expecting a flamer in a 6 man squad to get the job done, good luck with that. It also has the traffic jam issue (especially in spearhead). Immobilize or destroy the front vehicles, and now the ones behind it have to go around or take dangerous terrain tests. It can hold objectives, but seems weak on the ability to take others. The close range firepower or assault ability just isn't there.

Agreed. Frag missiles are laughable anti-horde at the best of times. If you hit, you'll hit a single model (let's just assume the opposition isn't playing their first game and spaces out, and that's possible even with horde Orks). If Orks cannot deal with Leman Russes (which I doubt), how's this list going to deal with them? Lascannon *can* work but we all know the math even before we assume cover saves from supporting Chimeras (which will surely be there in 2k).

Flavius Infernus wrote:
With the more-expendable rhinos in front you can get a 3+ save on most/all your razors without impairing their firepower, since the turrets can see over the top.

You get a 4+ cover save. He can see the turret. The turret is part of the facing. Your opponent can therefore clearly see that facing.

You also never know how shooting turns out if the opposition decides not to fire on the tanks in cover. When that shooting results in a couple of Rhino wrecks in front of your Razors, your mobility goes down dramatically.

I think this foot army is weak against razor spam wolves for the same reason that all foot armies are tending to be weak against mech: your shots are hitting vehicles; his shots are hitting bodies.

There's more bodies than tanks, which tends to compensate even when there are just as many shots coming from the tanks or their passengers. Also, bodies find it easier to get a cover save. If you assume cover for the tanks, it would be only fair to assume the same for the footsloggers.

He'll be on the objectives first with superior mobility

Very very probably at the expense of at least some firepower, and vice versa. You cannot have both simultaneously. Granted, you can fire the lasers on the move but I'm not sure I would call even nine lascannon shooting at infantry heavy firepower.

You talk about staying at long range, but the mobile force--not the static one--controls the range of engagement.

The Wolves are no safer from autocannon at 24", and they bring less short ranged weaponry to bear at short to medium distance than the other side.

I think there's enough antihorde in there. When talking about the small blasts don't forget the longfangs. Of course these blasts will not break a whole army on their own, but they thin out the lines quite well. If the enemy should get close those greyhunters are nothing to laugh at, if one of those GH squads can't do the job throw in another one, who cares? Thus we'll round up to multiple flamers and boltPs plus the charge. Hell if necessary even the RBs can put out 3 wounds if in rapid fire range (unlikely to happen, but possible) to take down single advancing units.
More of a problem would be blob IG imo if they stay back and pour fire. But would they stand a chance against most common tourney lists? I don't think so...

Cpt. Icanus wrote:I think there's enough antihorde in there. When talking about the small blasts don't forget the longfangs. Of course these blasts will not break a whole army on their own, but they thin out the lines quite well.

We will have to disagree then. I don't think you'll ever hit more than three models. That's 0.75 casualties against a T4 horde, assuming cover, or one Ork assuming a KFF, in a best case scenario.

If the enemy should get close those greyhunters are nothing to laugh at, if one of those GH squads can't do the job throw in another one, who cares?

Such small units are not a threat except against the weakest enemy units. They will simply wither in CC against anything other than 10 Guardsmen, and I believe that the list doesn't have the number of bodies to simply throw them away. Not in 2k I'm afraid.

It's an AV11 spam list. I see av12 spam as a bigger threat. AV11 is, (for me) too easy to kill. Pulse rifles, heavy bolters, burst cannons, and a number of other weapons are now capable of hurting that front armor. Plasma rifles, rail rifles, multi-lasers, devourers all double their effectiveness.

Chimera mechvets scare me more even if they don't have as many lascannons. The jump from AV11 to AV12 is huge in terms of survivability.

Nurglitch wrote:Flavius Infernus:

I'd disagree. The mobility factor was accounted for by the range of Autocannons and the infiltrating Chosen. Mobility only saves you if you can outrange your opponent and thus control the coverage of the field. Moreover while Bile's army is shooting vehicles, they're shooting AV11/10 vehicles with Autocannons, the ideal anti-light vehicle weapon. In return those masses of bodies are absorbing anti-tank fire if it gets past their cover. Notice especially the range, if the Wolves can shoot Bile's force, the Chaos Space Marines can shoot back. Whether the Wolves try a refused flank or gamble on reserves, it's in the Chaos Space Marine's interest to clam up in a firebase and let the Wolves come to them. The CSM anti-Rhino firepower only increases if the Wolves try to close, and without their vehicles the Space Wolves themselves will be in the same boat but at a disadvantage in material. That's not even mentioning how the CSM can turn the objectives into kill-zones.

Something I think nobody has pointed out is the sheer mass of vehicles on the board. You'd practically have to play on an open board to avoid giving away cover saves, or presenting the Space Wolves to their opponents piecemeal.

It's theoryhammer, but it's probably not hard to imagine how a mechanized army can go heavy on one flank and close in on one end of a gunline (the mobility advantage isn't limited only to being able to stand off, but also being able to bring more powerful, short-range weapons like twinlinked plasma guns into range) thus causing some of the long-range guns at the far end of the line to be out of range, and/or using terrain and your own vehicles to block lines of fire from static guns at the far end of the line. Since the guns can't move to regain their lines of sight and shoot in the same turn, their firepower is effectively reduced or negated by the mobile force's maneuvering.

If you deploy your gunline in a tight formation to avoid this kind of flank-heavy attack, which is generally a good idea against a more-mobile opponent anyway, then you sacrifice coverage of fire lanes and make it easier for the mobile enemy to stand off from some of your guns while still being in range to concentrate fire on part of your own force in a shootout. And you make it even harder for yourself to claim or hold objectives in objective-based scenarios.

Infiltrators aren't mobile--they're just deployed away from the main force, which makes them easily isolated. And I think in this case isn't their effectiveness is nerfed a lot by that stupid space wolf bird thing?


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Lord Solar Plexus wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:
With the more-expendable rhinos in front you can get a 3+ save on most/all your razors without impairing their firepower, since the turrets can see over the top.

You get a 4+ cover save. He can see the turret. The turret is part of the facing. Your opponent can therefore clearly see that facing.

You also never know how shooting turns out if the opposition decides not to fire on the tanks in cover. When that shooting results in a couple of Rhino wrecks in front of your Razors, your mobility goes down dramatically.

Line of sight is drawn to the hull of the target vehicle according to my rulebook. A turret is not part of the hull.

As far as blocking line of sight, a wreck is as good as a live vehicle. You can always just pivot and drive around a wreck. If you deployed in such a way that you can't drive safely past one of your own wrecks, then you can take the dangerous terrain test and remember to do it right next time.

I think this foot army is weak against razor spam wolves for the same reason that all foot armies are tending to be weak against mech: your shots are hitting vehicles; his shots are hitting bodies.

There's more bodies than tanks, which tends to compensate even when there are just as many shots coming from the tanks or their passengers. Also, bodies find it easier to get a cover save. If you assume cover for the tanks, it would be only fair to assume the same for the footsloggers.

Yeah, I wasn't happy when I wrote my comparison, so I think I need to modify it. What I would rather say is that an infantry model has at least some chance of dying to anything that is capable of shooting at it, so there's a whole range of low-cost, low-strength, cheap weapons throughout the game that have at least a chance of killing any infantry model any time. So you have to gamble to some extent and depend on some odds with infantry. But vehicles are immune to whole categories of the cheap, low-strength weapons that are so common in the game, so they reduce the effectiveness of your opponent's firepower just by their very nature and reduce your need to gamble on dice. If you can take out some or all of your opponent's anti-tank weapons early in the game, then your armored vehicles become relatively safe and you can pursue objectives with impunity. But there's no way to take out all the weapons that can hurt infantry without destroying the whole opposing army.

Granted, packing autocannons into big units of bullet-catchers makes it harder to take them out early in the game.


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Also for the "this army lacks anti-horde" arguers, I'd argue based on my experience playing chaos that boltguns, tankshock + flamers, and massed str4 close combat attacks with bp&ccw are among the best inexpensive horde-killers in the game. Frag missiles are just for thinning out the units you're going to assault.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:
With the more-expendable rhinos in front you can get a 3+ save on most/all your razors without impairing their firepower, since the turrets can see over the top.

You get a 4+ cover save. He can see the turret. The turret is part of the facing. Your opponent can therefore clearly see that facing.

The turret of the razorback can be placed on the rear armor facing, just like the Predator. It's quite possible to get a 3+ cover save and still be able to form the 'shooty choo choo train' for cover saves since it's armor facing (the 4 triangles) that determine which part of the vehicle you're firing at, not the front of the turret.

Regarding small blasts vs. hordes, my experiences mesh much more closely with what Shep and the "more than 5 models per blast" crowd describe than the "4 models max" crowd. I have played a LOT of small-blast armies; Grotzooka Kanz, Executioner Guard, 15 missile Space Wolves, and my experience is that even against Marines you can get 4-5 models per direct hit; against hordes it's a fair bit higher. Once you get models on the tabletop, trying to maneuver around terrain, or getting the occasional tank shock it's very, very easy to net 6 or more hits. For practical play purposes, keeping so many models 2" apart is simply unfeasible. Remember, you only need one small concentration (around a terrain corner, for instance) to let your opponent start racking up small blast hits.



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Nurglitch wrote:Flavius Infernus:

I'd disagree. The mobility factor was accounted for by the range of Autocannons and the infiltrating Chosen. Mobility only saves you if you can outrange your opponent and thus control the coverage of the field. Moreover while Bile's army is shooting vehicles, they're shooting AV11/10 vehicles with Autocannons, the ideal anti-light vehicle weapon.

Not a balanced army, gets hosed by Vulkan. And once you take out the plasma/autocannons to add melta/missiles, you are no longer nearly as effective versus the Lazback list.

You also get pounded into rubble by Russ IG and turned over and spanked by Lash Chaos (esp. lash chaos with havoc rhinos, plague marines, and oblits).

The exercise isn't to tailor a list, it's to find other balanced all-comers lists to beat this one.

Flavius Infernus:

I agree, this is theory-hammer, but you really have to think about what you're imaginging. It used to be when I did theory-hammer I'd pull out some models and block things out on my desk. Doing that really brings home a number of things such as range and space: models take up space! That tends to get ignored in theory-hammer.

The reason I bring this up is that deploying a gun-line, particularly against a mobile opponent such as the YMMV list presented here is always a bad idea. The fact is that they're going to get cover some way or another so you needn't worry about giving everyone in your army a clear line of sight: what you need to worry about is making sure that if they can shoot you, that you can shoot back. That means 'castling' rather than spreading out. This castle will be defined by the range of the weapons available and terrain: the army's reach is 4', so is that of their enemy.

Given the average size of a gaming table, if you castle up in the middle, or at least somewhere not on the flanks, then you have coverages virtually everywhere on the table, lines of sight notwithstanding. But the Space Wolfs have no barrage weapons, so that's not a problem. If they can shoot the CSM, then the CSMs will be able to shoot back, and the volume of shots from the Autocannons will go a long way to defeating SW APC/IFV cover saves by weight of dice.

The Havocs won't need to move. The Troops will eventually need to move, but that'll be after all the SW tanks have been destroyed and the need to maintain the defensive formation becomes secondary to hunting down the Chaos Space Marine squads with Plasma and Close Combat. The Chosen have the hardest job: they are the pickets: deployed ~2' within the ~4' fire support of the Havoc fire base the Chosen get an opening shot with their own Autocannon and Plasma Guns, but will soon be jumping Space Wolf squads that have been knocked out of their transports. They're suicide-squads, essentially, but fortunately they're disposable.

So again the mobility advantage is negated by range and weight of fire, while the CSM sacrifice nothing to achieve that.

So you filthy Imperial Lapdogs can keep your fancy Plasma Cannons: give me an Autocannon any day!

What about triple manticores supported by 3 sets of 2 devil dogs. The dogs form a 2-turn smoking popping wall, letting off 1 shot per group over the two turns.. and the manticores rain down D3 str10 ordenance blasts. Even on a side hit, 5+ on either 2d6 isnt too bad & with that many off-centre targets if you were to get 9 large blasts in a single volley..

Thats a nice neat 1200pts. 800pts on troops, three healthy triple autocannon blobs?

Unsure what the troops would look like although autocannon blobs would probably deal best with that kinda of razor-spam firepower. Yeah, probably that then.. also good to form a protective melta-shield (and friendly-fire scatter-catchers!) from your artillery backline.

Anygood?

Razerous:

Good call with the Manticores. Maybe a couple of Manticores supported by a couple of Hydras?

In that case I think I'd suggest taking some Mortar HWS just to be evil: once the SW tanks have been annihilated, you can turn the mid-field into a kill-zone of blast weapons, as well as having something small enough but numerous enough to throw at any Land Speeders trying to hide.

wuestenfux wrote:

A 9-wave serpent list with all scatter laser wave serpents could do well too, with 9 2x Scatter laser warwalkers. They'll do a fine job of popping tanks at an alarming rate, and fairly reliably at LEAST shutting down their shooting. And on the plus side they can table most other armies too.

How many points would this be?
The Serpents alone cost about 1000 pts.

Well, the original list is designed for 2500. So I'd need to shave some.

It's got Eldrad, 6 dire avenger squads in WS, 3 fire dragon squads in WS, and 9 warwalkers.

So for 2000 I'd probably have to drop a unit of DA and a unit of FD. Maybe even make the other two FD squads into min-sized, or drop a second DA squad.

Its a very strong list youll be hard pressed to beat it if you actually ever play against it and its played well.

The fact is with just two rhinos in front and some marginal stack you can give a majority of your army in cover for 4+ cover saves.

You can theory hammer all you like but its nothing to disregard. If you specificall build your army to defeat this youll probably be crippled against other armies.




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edit: The bane of the army realyl is just one unit a Manticore getting 3 good templates with marginal direct his you can get lucky and take out 4 a shot if the vehicles are close together.


then again, space your gak out and you wont have a problem with that.

5 50 man blob squads and 3 deathstrike missiles, plus as many vendettas as I can fit.

Hollismason wrote:
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edit: The bane of the army realyl is just one unit a Manticore getting 3 good templates with marginal direct his you can get lucky and take out 4 a shot if the vehicles are close together.

QFT. Manticore + indrect fire = no cover save = dead transports.

An army with both manticores and autocannons definitely puts a mech list on the fork with going second; go for the cover saves and take a chance that the storm eagle rockets will scatter off, or spread out and take the autocannon hits? Or just keep everything in reserve.

Dark Eldar lance spam? Not a common army out there but I could see it being able to pull a win. Nightshield negate the range a bit and combined with sheer volume of quality shots and mobility to use it where it hurts seem like it favors the DE player.

Tau can be tooled to deal with the transports but I don't think they could then also mop up the contents such to pull a consistent win. Annihilation, sure they could pull a KP lead and maintain it. But the marine player would have to seriously screw up to lose an objective mission.

Guard agree with above, manticores and mass AC list would probably win a slugfest, but I still give the marines the edge on subsequent wins on objectives.

All theory though.

It occurred to me that it might be something to block out all this theory on the field if someone had something like a copy of Vassal or somesuch. I recall this one awesome Apocalypse battle report having been compiled with Powerpoint and Access.

winterman wrote:
Tau can be tooled to deal with the transports but I don't think they could then also mop up the contents such to pull a consistent win. Annihilation, sure they could pull a KP lead and maintain it. But the marine player would have to seriously screw up to lose an objective mission.

All theory though.

Plasma kills marines dead. You can cram a bunch of fireknives into a 2000 point list. 2-5 man squads do not constitute a significant threat to suits. I basically comes down to who gets first turn I suppose, but having 10+ mobile autocannons (basically) along with 10+ mobile plasma rifles in addition to a bunch of railguns and str 5 says to me that the Tau win.

We can agree to disagree (and I don't doubt there are tau players that can prove me wrong). But my thoughts on your response: Plasma only kills marines out of cover and in LOS, which will be an issue with that many vehicles. More fireknives means less chance of owning the AV11 chassis first turn via deathrains. The proposed list also has alot more marines then just two 5 mans and each unit is more then a match for most tau units in HtH. In turn, suits are not gonna like that much double T4 firepower. There's what, 12 or so units that will put a serious hurt on suits and at least force ld checks. Even the most tooled Tau army isn't shutting this down completely in 1 turn.

Don't get me wrong, a typical Tau tournament army has a better chance then most other tournament lists, I just think they typically have issues getting objectives from mech marine armies and similar.

The most Dark lances that can be put into a Dark Eldar Army is 33. Without cover saves that is an average of nearly 11 pens and 3 glances on the first shooting phase. Unless you roll a ton of immobilized results you should be able to shut down most of the razorbacks.

But in general you don't see Dark Eldar, or 33 dark lances very often. (Who takes Scourges these days?)

I don't have AB with me at the moment but I don't see why a SM bike list with some landspeders couldn't beat this list. Since this is a challenge list consider the biker list in a DoW mission or with the Khan for outflanking. You have to take out 15 vehicles for the win. The challenge list could have some real issues as pointed out if it has to go second. You can't hold units in reserve because you need to be able to bring all your firepower to bare so it's a target rich environment and mobile melta toting units could go through it quickly. It also doesn't really strike me as a list that has much of a counter assault element other than 50 Space Wolves.

It looks good on paper for sure though.

G

I'm not sold on the opinion that DE would do really well against this list. Obviously getting the first turn in that matchup would be huge, but the marine list has the advantage of range on its side. If they go first, they'll be better able to engage the DE wherever they are. The marines, if going second, can at least force many of the enemy vehicles to move and possibly reduce their firepower (ravagers, embarked troops with dark lances, etc). The fight devolves into a slugging match, which is not where the DE want to be. Blow up a rhino? Fine, now you've got 3 guys in 4+ cover that are still shooting at you. The DE are penning on a 4+ and destroying on a 5+, while the marines pen on a 2-3+ and destroy on a 4+. Number of vehicles will be approximately the same (assuming very shooty DE). The fact that marine have ATSKNF is huge, too, while DE troops easily rout, giving the marines an edge of sorts in objective-based games.

If the DE are assault oriented, they lose. There's nothing of value to assault, and they'll get outgunned at range. A pimped-out wych squad can kill whatever spills out of a wrecked vehicles, and then will die horribly to a cheap GH squad with flamer. DE do well against moderate numbers of vehicles, excelling at killing tough/expensive stuff. The hordes of little things that shoot back is really a mirror of the DE list...but the maximum overdrive list presented trades some of the DE mobility for much greater resilience and range.

The horde question is interesting, too. I think if the enemy army is "horde based", with multiple large squads, you're going to see clumping of models somewhere, and that's where the frag missiles will be able to strike and kill lots of models. One or two advancing horde squads will probably be much better spread, but will them be vulnerable to being targeted by multiple squads and overwhelmed as they get close.

I like the idea of IG against this list. Couple russes in a squadron for cover (and annihilating dismounted squads), couple manticores in the back to pound him (especially if he castles up), 3 vendettas to snipe away, and then either some troops with ranged heavy weapons and/or melta vets to advance. IG goes first, everything goes in the middle. Wolves start clumped somewhere, manticores pound, russes shield them, vendettas scout away and keep picking off the lead vehicles. IG goes first, wolves spread out: vendettas scout to one side, then everything fires at the wolves on that side. Gives vendettas some breathing room to, again, snipe the few targets in range turn after turn.

If wolves go first, they have to start in the middle. Starting in the corner means the IG will clump in the opposite corner, and they'll win the extreme range firefight. So, wolves in the middle, IG castle in a corner as best as possible...that would be an ugly fight with lots of death, and will very much rely on the commanders' skills.

Actually, nob bikers could kill a lot of tanks in this list with some spam. Turn 2 charge with a whole lot of claws could kill any castling opportunities as they would get chewed up- add in loota spam and you can get a whole lot of dead vehicles, turn by turn. Add in some boyz for general duties, perhaps some truckboys or tankbustas as well, and you have a list?


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Actually, a funny list to take would also be.... grey knights. As many PAGK squads as possible, in every available landraider.

Landraiders run forth, destroying immediate threats (such as the melta wolf guard if possible). PAGK's roll out into any troops, or into the transports as S6 is perfect to smack up vehicles. Get into combat with those troops that are without transports. Make sure the units stay together so that remnants of units can join each others combats once they have won.

Could work, anyway.

Flavius Infernus wrote:
Line of sight is drawn to the hull of the target vehicle according to my rulebook. A turret is not part of the hull.

Then we obviously have different rule books, Flavius Infernus, because in mine it says hull or turret. A turret is perhaps not part of the hull but it is part of the facing, and that's the relevant aspect.

As far as blocking line of sight, a wreck is as good as a live vehicle. You can always just pivot and drive around a wreck. If you deployed in such a way that you can't drive safely past one of your own wrecks, then you can take the dangerous terrain test and remember to do it right next time.

A wreck is not as good as a live vehicle. The latter can move away on its own accord. That's a whole lot more flexible. Depending on the relative position of firer, wreck, and target, and the size of the target and wreck, your LoS might still be impeded. "Doing it right" is a good idea but there will be things that you have no control over, such as which vehicle is wrecked or stunned when. There's nothing wrong with having lots of vehicles but you cannot brush aside the fact that this brings its own problems that one will have to cope with.

Yeah, I wasn't happy when I wrote my comparison, so I think I need to modify it.

Never mind, I know what you wanted to say. I was just a little picky. As to the anti-horde, let's leave it at that. We all have different experiences in this regard I suppose.

sourclams wrote:
The turret of the razorback can be placed on the rear armor facing, just like the Predator. It's quite possible to get a 3+ cover save and still be able to form the 'shooty choo choo train' for cover saves since it's armor facing (the 4 triangles) that determine which part of the vehicle you're firing at, not the front of the turret.

I think we've had this discussion before. The facing is static and you can only ever have one facing per side. There isn't a facing for the hull and one for the turret. Which way you point your gun does not change the facing. The 3+ save represents a very steep angle, not an obscured view as such.

Regarding small blasts vs. hordes, my experiences mesh much more closely with what Shep and the "more than 5 models per blast" crowd describe than the "4 models max" crowd.

That's what I meant above - we simply play different opponents. I can guarantee you that against my regular Ork opponent, a hit with a small blast will only cover one single model (baring tank shock or lash), so it's quite possible. A scatter will nearly always hit more. It's a good thing that my IG scatters more often than it hits...

winterman wrote:We can agree to disagree (and I don't doubt there are tau players that can prove me wrong). But my thoughts on your response: Plasma only kills marines out of cover and in LOS, which will be an issue with that many vehicles. More fireknives means less chance of owning the AV11 chassis first turn via deathrains. The proposed list also has alot more marines then just two 5 mans and each unit is more then a match for most tau units in HtH. In turn, suits are not gonna like that much double T4 firepower. There's what, 12 or so units that will put a serious hurt on suits and at least force ld checks.

Don't get me wrong, a typical Tau tournament army has a better chance then most other tournament lists, I just think they typically have issues getting objectives from mech marine armies and similar.

Plasma kills Marines in cover, too, just at a slower rate, and if that isn't true, then how come that the Razorbacks' plasma is a threat to Tau suits? Are they not in cover? Did they not bring some drones? Why not? I find it much more likely that the suits will have LoS, as they are rather more mobile than the Marines after some transports have been popped. If the suits are not in LoS of any Marines, they can just as easily shoot at AV 11, so they're rarely completely wasted. A 5-men unit is certainly no serious threat, not even in HtH against Tau suits, and will really struggle against Broadsides.

Even the most tooled Tau army isn't shutting this down completely in 1 turn.

That's beside the point. Winning on turn 1 wasn't a prerequisite for this thought experiment. The opening salvoes from lascannon will be absorbed by drones, too, so it goes both ways.

I keep coming back to a Guard list with Russes, Devil Dogs, Vendettas and the usual Chimera Vet spam. This is a pretty standard Guard build, too...

It's definitely a strong list, and classic Stelek, but as has been said, trying to play with that many vehicles on one side will be a challenge.

AV14 seems to be a hassle for it. Makes me wonder if a bunch of Battlewagons full of Boyz might also not cause problems, as the Boyz can travel farther than Melta can, and once you get a load of models in amongs the SW Vehicles, they're sorta choked in.

Also, all those KPs... Brutal in 1/3rd of missions. There will be a lot of lists that can rack up a big chunk of KPs (more than there are in their own army), and then just sorta run around hiding. Tau/Eldar come to mind here, but anything that has reasonable firepower and then a couple fast units that can run away.

Overall, tho, I think it nicely captures the state of 40K. Winning lists revolve around spamming cost effective Troops choices in transports.

As it's been, looks great on paper.

G

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:
I think we've had this discussion before. The facing is static and you can only ever have one facing per side. There isn't a facing for the hull and one for the turret. Which way you point your gun does not change the facing. The 3+ save represents a very steep angle, not an obscured view as such.

According to the rulebook, vehicle facing is determined by drawing bisecting diagonals through the chassis, and then determining which of the '4 triangles' you are firing at via TLOS.

On vehicles like the Razorback where the turret is/can be located on the back triangle, it is now part of the rear armor facing. As such, it doesn't matter if you can see the front of the turret, it's still not part of the front facing. Thus if front armor is 100% obscured (as with a Razorback parked behind a rhino, for example) then even if you can see the turret, it's still not part of the front armor facing and a 3+ save is appropriate for a high deflection shot.

sourclams wrote:
According to the rulebook, vehicle facing is determined by drawing bisecting diagonals through the chassis, and then determining which of the '4 triangles' you are firing at via TLOS.

On vehicles like the Razorback where the turret is/can be located on the back triangle, it is now part of the rear armor facing. As such, it doesn't matter if you can see the front of the turret, it's still not part of the front facing. Thus if front armor is 100% obscured (as with a Razorback parked behind a rhino, for example) then even if you can see the turret, it's still not part of the front armor facing and a 3+ save is appropriate for a high deflection shot.

Wait, so if you fire at the razorback with a rear-mounted turret that is hiding behind a rhino, the rhino gets a 3+ save because the armor facing it sees is the rear (based on turret location)? Do you also roll against the rear armor, then?