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Owain wrote:Still, what of units that GW doesn't have official minis for?

Missing models?

Counting FW, or not?

Owain wrote:Thank goodness I don't WANT to play in a tournament. Furthermore there's not an official GW store anywhere near my current place of residence or any of the places I intend to go to college... hence, not my problem.

Still, what of units that GW doesn't have official minis for?

Units? or does character count as well?

Fantasy have tons. TONS!!!

Owain wrote:Thank goodness I don't WANT to play in a tournament. Furthermore there's not an official GW store anywhere near my current place of residence or any of the places I intend to go to college... hence, not my problem.

Still, what of units that GW doesn't have official minis for?

I can't really think of any units that GW don't have official models for. The only ones I can think of, off the top of my head, are the Deathstrike and a few of the Leman Russ variants(Eradicator immediately springs to mind...though it looks like it would just use the Demolisher turret and claims of specialized shells).

Maybe the Mycetic Spores that Tyranids are supposed to be getting, but I dunno.

I still think it all boils down to GW not wanting any third party bits "advertised" on their models, such as Pig Iron heads on Cadians.

There's a bunch of Blood Bowl special players for whom GW don't make models.

It doesn't mean they have to let you into an official Blood Bowl competition with figures from Impact Miniatures for those special players.

That won't be a problem anymore! Remember, the rules are gonna be withheld until Impact promises not to make possible stand in mini's!

They don't make flashgits, they don't make a grotzooka for Kans, the deathstrike missile, the manticore and hydra and autocannon russ are only available in forgeworld.

Wazdakka the biker ork character also.

I know there are many more

My rebellious Metal-Listening side is coming out.

What do I say in this situation?

"feth GW"

Lord_Mortis wrote:I have read different people state that GW allows a certain percentage of a model to be another company's product, and that percentage varies depending on who is telling it. But while I was reading GW's IP policy, I noticed this little nugget:

Conversions

Conversions are a major aspect of the hobby, although in intellectual property terms, they also constitute a major infringement. However, we are certainly not about to stop people making cool conversions of our products, although, there are certain things to keep in mind:

Please do not combine our intellectual properties with IP owned by any third parties. Your conversions should be one-time, unique masterpieces of hobby goodness. Do not create a production run of conversions for sale. Whilst infringing our IP, this is also simply not hobby.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=&pIndex=3&aId=3900002&start=4

So if I am reading this correctly, while converting existing models using only GW materials is okay, using another company's "bits", such as Pig Iron Heads, on GW models is prohibited? Is that really what that say? Or am I missing something?

Basiclly.

AND.. don't forget, you'd better be using the GW greenstuff, the GW paint, the GW brush to paint it with, and the GW sprays, tools, and everything else. If not, you get the redshirt inquisition kill team to come over to your house with a C and D letter.
Serious.

if I went to a GW hobby center or GW Run-Event, if I brought an Avatar of War model, would I get kicked out?

The real question to ask is "what are the chances I would get caught if I did that". The real world answer is "very unlikely". The sad fact is that GW has every right to have their "play only with our toys in our events" rule, but in practice it's almost completely un-enforcable. Honestly, think about it. How often do the event staff carefully peruse every army in the comp in an attempt to ferret out any naughty non-GW models. How many staffers actually have the specialized knowledge to recognize by sight every GW model they've ever produced and thus could counter the logical defence if called on it of "it's an OOP model". What are the chances that some other gamer would recognize the non-GW model in their opponent's army and rat them out to the comp staff just to cause trouble?

TR

Trench-Raider wrote:

if I went to a GW hobby center or GW Run-Event, if I brought an Avatar of War model, would I get kicked out?

The real question to ask is "what are the chances I would get caught if I did that".

The real world answer is "very unlikely".

What are the chances that some other gamer would recognize the non-GW model in their opponent's army and rat them out to the comp staff just to cause trouble?

If the rule is to play with GW models at the GW event, then the opponent has every right to expect this.

Besides, during painting judging, you can bet the GW staff will catch the non-GW model when they don't recognize it.

And the idea of telling players to LIE? Why not then just buy the painting portion?

If you want to play GW events, you're stuck with their models and their rules. Otherwise, don't attend.

If the rule is to play with GW models at the GW event, then the opponent has every right to expect this.

I suppose.
But it would take a real busybody, rabid fanboy, or a tool trying to "chipmonk"or cause trouble for an opponent to raise an issue about it. This would make for an interesting thread in of itself.

Besides, during painting judging, you can bet the GW staff will catch the non-GW model when they don't recognize it

Perhaps, but at the same time it's unlikely. I'll have to repost something I posted a couple of years ago over at Warseer that pointed out how most people could be easily fooled by a non-GW model. Outside of a few people in the hard core collecting communty (such as those at the Collecting GW Miniatures Yahoo group and wikki) very few people have the knowledge base to actually enforce the "play with our toys" rule.

If you want to play GW events, you're stuck with their models and their rules. Otherwise, don't attend.

fair enough. Which is one of the reason I do not attend GW sponsored events or play in their stores. But to be honest slipping a non-GW miniature or three into one of their events is a great little f. you move.

TR

Edit: missed a point

And the idea of telling players to LIE? Why not then just buy the painting portion?

How is that even remotely similar? A painting comp is a test of painting skill. What does the material used have to do with it and how does including the odd non-aproved model in your force equate to "buying" the comp? Please man. You can do alot better than this...

Trench-Raider wrote:

And the idea of telling players to LIE? Why not then just buy the painting portion?

How is that even remotely similar? A painting comp is a test of painting skill. What does the material used have to do with it and how does including the odd non-aproved model in your force equate to "buying" the comp? Please man. You can do alot better than this...

I think he's saying that if you're going to lie about having figs that conform to the contest standards (in this case pretending that there's not enough GW bits on there to qualify), you might as well break the rest of the rules and have someone else paint the figs too. Breaking one rule and breaking a million make you a cheater regardless. That's assuming the contest had that rule to begin with though.

As for units with rules but not models (at least in print still)...
Thunderwolf Cav
Slaaneshi Seekers
Seperate Nurgle Palanquin
Aren't there some SM characters still also?

Exactly so. If you're not going to follow the rules, then why place less weight on the "non-GW" minis rule vs the "self-paint" rule?

Or vs any other rule in the event?

I also want to know answer to this:

Does basing / decoration count towards the % ?
for example : GW basing kits , vs say Micro Art resin bases.

If using other company's precast resin kits count towards the 30% used , then by all means the % used by GW basing kit should also count.

In other words... ( i dont think i need to elaborate more ) This question is for the people that claims to know the GW set % + what is "common sense"
i keep seeing brought up over and over again.

You know the sickest thing about this is that there is actually a conversation running this gambit.

Am I the only one who has a book with plans on how to make a tank made out of a shampoo bottle? What about the White Dwarfs with the plans to make the Gobsmashers, Spleen rippers, and bunkers, guns, conversions, and generaly anything we feel like making?

From a compnay built on the back of Dungeons and Dragons... We are now having conversations about ... "Percentages of GW models in conversions" of all things!?!!?

Irony? Stupidity? Overarching need to be paranoid?

Common sense to me after seeing a conversation like this would be... 0. because I am supposed to be scared of all the lawyers, want to be lawyers, tool bags that are out there looking over models for supposedly now- Model conversion infractions. Never mind using PDF's. Thats not even in the ballpark, now we talk about modeling, and we are supposed to be worried about conversions?

You really should take a step back and look at the sillyness of this conversation.
Are you guys serious? GW doesn't care about what you convert, unless your trying to make money off of the models by cranking out those back door titans and figures that they run you out of town on tarred and feathered on a rail for.

Your making a model. This is a game. Make what you want to, any way you want to, play, and have fun doing it. Someone wants to give you static over your stuff, go tell them to pack sand. There are more important things to worry about, like if I want to paint my Penisvore Blue or Pink.

This hobby is about artistic content. There is no omnipresent GW Gestapo that is going to come and give you hell over anything that you are doing to build your models and play the games. They want you to play with GW stuff, but if you don't have it, you make a guy that looks as close to it as you can, making it your own and doing your best with it.

As for "Official", Luna. they have a guideline on thier touraments that discusses the whole model make up, conversion, and how they want it for "Official" tourny action.
That meaning GW sanctioned and run by affiliated individuals. (Adepticon, GamesDay, Shop tournies like 'ARD BOYZ, etc.)
An example can be found here
http://www.adepticon.org/?page_id=814

Here
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=3900014§ion=&pIndex=2&aId=16400003&start=3

Here
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m90029a_40KArdBoyzRules.pdf

And... Here.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=300005§ion=&pIndex=2&aId=3400027&start=3


They do this because they have serious money, backing, and funding going to this. You go in there with a Warzone, ICOR, or Pigiron tank, then YOU deserve anything you get from a little derision, to getting thrown out or disqualification from a portion or all of an event. They arn't going to take your stuff from you, but come on, YOU are at a GW event. You don't go in there with a couple of Warjacks and think you are going to get away with calling them dreadnaughts. Price hasn't anything to do with it, its about the old fasioned common sense and decency of the competition. GW event, you paint, build and play with GW stuff. Want to play in another game, then go play it. EVERY game plays like that. We play the games we want to, build the stuff, throw down hard earned coin to play that game.
Worrying over trifelness is really not going to do you, the game, or anything justice.

I mean Honestly, no one cares, as long as it is a good faith honest to goodness attempt at a GW model specific for the Warhammer fantasy or 40K game. If your TFG thats the one cranking out the back door Tyranid Dominatrix, The Castilian, or the garage factory full of immigrant sweatshop labor, you better get ready for court, but for the rest of us players, modelers and hobbiests, we all like painting, building, and playing games.

!@#$ the lawyers. We're in it to play, have fun, and do some cool things with some bad little men and women and monsters.

@Grot 6 , what you said is certainly true if we play at FLGS.
But some people like to make most out of their expensive GW army ( tournaments ) which unfortunately doesnt work as nicely as you put it.

Trench-Raider wrote:But it would take a real busybody, rabid fanboy, or a tool trying to "chipmonk"or cause trouble for an opponent to raise an issue about it. This would make for an interesting thread in of itself.

Knowing the kind of people I meet playing this game, I'd consider this extremely likely.

LunaHound wrote:I also want to know answer to this:

Does basing / decoration count towards the % ?
for example : GW basing kits , vs say Micro Art resin bases.

If using other company's precast resin kits count towards the 30% used , then by all means the % used by GW basing kit should also count.

In other words... ( i dont think i need to elaborate more ) This question is for the people that claims to know the GW set % + what is "common sense"
i keep seeing brought up over and over again.

Luna, yes basing counts. as its up to the GW cheese monkeys at the event to say no, you can count on some of them saying just that. 'no you cant play with this model cause it combines the IP of another company with our product.'

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Trench-Raider wrote:But it would take a real busybody, rabid fanboy, or a tool trying to "chipmonk"or cause trouble for an opponent to raise an issue about it. This would make for an interesting thread in of itself.

Knowing the kind of people I meet playing this game, I'd consider this extremely likely.

I can safely second this thought, with the tourny play. I haven't found that yet with the modeling, though.


Thats why I'm getting disturbed by the either intentional or unintentional issue that the conversation of conversion factor is bringing up to the game. WHO remembers when you build your assorted, " WYSIWYG " vehicles, conversions of your heros, characters that they don't make the mini for, or any of your own generic warhammer or 40K stuff that we play with. Lustria, Mordhiem, Cult Armys, vehicle alts, and you go ahead and add yours here... YOU all do remember that they didn't make specifics for quite some time, didn't you?
Now, you are trying to tell me that some chipmunk actually has merit when they start to dime out the guy that shows up with Cypher and his fallen army?

GW is like a McDonalds. They crank out this stuff and people take to it because of convenience. NOW are you telling me that these same guys that were toting the "Hey, play your army, have a good time, and remember rule number 1 and dice off for it if you don't understand... are now in the run you off because you converted a chainsaw on your drednaughts or your plague marines with the zombie heads? Thats like McDonalds claiming thier quarter bounder is filiet minion.

They sell everything from paint to brushes, and greenstuff and parts. The encouraged the artistic freedom. THAT'S the reason that this conversation is so sick. NOW you are getting to the point where a company is actually encouraging this sort of chipmunking in thier tournies, then is leading to a culture of stupid.

Tournies, I can understand, to a point. now is this going the same route with the game in general?

I for one, was kinda disappointed about the whole removal of chapter specifics in the chaos side of the house. I thought that that would probibly encourage people to make thier own chapters up and set the table for an improved, or at least newer version of the chapters. NOW are you are getting to the point where even as a modeler or painter, you are actually getting static for creating? They are encouraging this sort of thing? What happened to the WYSIWYG armies and the whole, "Oh, if you want them to you can make up your own army of Legion of the Damned, or warhost armies..." I can easily see it for one of those gold star events, like Gamesdfay, or Adepticon, that actually bring the jagoffs out of the woodwork, You ususally tell them to have a nice hot cup of shut the heck up and play the game, but are you getting to the point now where THIS is the so called "Hobby"?
Does that happen to you all down at your local game places?

Crap, Hobby to me means just that- Something I go do to release some stress in something I enjoy. Is GW's definition of "Hobby" changed? Maybe its, "Wait by the door and when someone brings in a new and interesting build of hobby we can bust thier chops and not let them play in the store." Why would someone, especially a company that is in the primary buisness of pushing product do that?

Talk about mixed messaging? The reason why Tournament play sucks to begin with is the increase in some of the stupid regulation and idiocy by those chosen minority of spirit of the rule asscats that use those small chinks in the rules for thier own benefit.
Is it wrong to say that they have inbred to the point where it is now a part of the game? I though those jerks were the minority. Are we now supposed to be stifeling creativity and actually pigeon holeing players into nice little generic builds?

Hell, WHY even paint them at all then? They might as well crank out the Prepainted Sazz MuhReenees, and just go pitch GW brand cups of coffee with a free suger cube dice inside...

Maybe I have been playing 40K for too long... Damn kids, Get off of my lawn!

Please remember that GW's stated "policy" and the actual "law" are two very different and distinct things. Once you buy the figures from them you can do pretty much what you want - after all, you own them. We're not talking computer software here, where you are purchasing a "license" instead of an actual product. GW has no "legal" standing should you make a conversion using whatever materials you have at hand, even if those materials were made by another company. However, should you wish to use converted figures at a GW "official" event, you may have to comply with their "policy". GW stores and sponsored events are pretty much the only place GW can enforce their conversion "policy".

Basically GW is claiming all conversion you make as "derrivative works". That you're work is directly dependent on the existence of theirs. Under a very strict definition GW is correct in asserting that it has the rights it does. Derrivative works means you are not producing anything original but merely standing on previously created works.

Even if the work is found to be derrivative in court they would look at the original model. Determine how much of it was derrivative to establish how much of the models design is actually protected. Then compare those original elements with those of your model.

Let's take a space marine. You could point out these as being derrivative of star wars storm troopers and or historic patterns. The court would agree. But the model has an aquilla or some other symbol and the backpack design, that it determines is protected. So the court would specify some fraction of the model is actually protected. That fraction would limit the actual amount of "damages" they could claim relative to the actual impact.

In court transformativeness has been used as a defence on the basis of fair use. For 40k and conversions it has been decided by the courts that "a party who distributes a copyrighted work cannot dictate how that work is to be enjoyed" and that customization of purchased product is specifically such a case.

So this shows GW is really stretching and attempting to intimidate its customers into believing they have more rights and control than they really do.

What cannot be seen, in the first place, is that anyone dedicated enough to convert GW stuff is doing GW a favour... You have to take the good with the bad but GW just wants to take the good and thats unfair and unrespectfull... By limiting people enjoyement with their products they are creating conflicts.

I give you this example... I have a tyranid army and say I dont like biovore model... so I sculpt one 100% with no GW bits... I cast them for me and use them on my army... Im not making a profit, or promoting a competitor or replicating GW bits... yet its not official and as such probably removed... Guess who loses?