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Zoned wrote:The alternative, you see, is to let the customer possibly reach no decision, which equals no sale. Why roll dice? Why not guide him to a decision and increase your chances of a sale?

The problem you may be encountering is the tact or art. Some employees are very knowledgeable and smooth when dealing with customers. Some are not.

K 2 things you brought up , the later part i 100% agree .

The part i underline , its abit hard to say , here is why.
There are 2 types of customers.
a) newbies that are just new to the hobby and are not sure what to get . In this case , you are 1000000% correct , GW WILL benefit from this type .

b) not exactly vets , but people that atleast know what they are looking for. In other words people that went to GW for reasons , they have something they need to get.
Say they only brought $100 , or rather , decided to spend around $100 . So they bought the thing they had in mind , then you have the staff trying to persuade you to get
the extras that you werent even planning on getting. This will turn into annoyance.

LunaHound wrote:
There is a problem with that.
1) where are you getting the numbers from with how many customer actually benefit from this type of sales pitch.
And here comes the other part you missed.
2) Assuming that the numbers you is accurate ( assuming ) , have you or GW took in account that
the amount of people that actually goes to the store that falls into the sales pitch = newbie customers?

I made the numbers up in regards to an "official" GW store, just like your 9/10 ratio. However the 5-1 was given by the new FLGS when I asked him about it. Amazing how up front people are.

You see , the number means nothing , if it doesnt include the people that DOESNT go to GW for such reasons.

If you avoid going to a shop because of human interaction, seek therapy.

See , lets play with numbers alittle .

Lets say 100 customers just to make it less math for me :3
You can say 90 customers enjoyed and bought w/e the red shirt successfully persuaded in selling.
so thats 90% success rate yes?

9/10 people found something that they'd have missed otherwise. Big deal.

Alright , now here is the part you missed.
Lets say the other 100 are vets ( like most of the people in this thread that dislike shopping in gw store for w/e reasons ) actually avoid shopping there?

Just because you're a "vet" doesn't mean you're not a human, like any other customer. And if you're a "vet" trying out a new shop, and not discomforted by human interaction--you won't be interested in coming back to a shop that treats you as invisible. To say otherwise is ridiculous.

Now you have like 110 people out of 200 that doesnt shop there ,
the numbers suddenly changes ALOT doesnt it?

Or are you going to say im wrong ?

How the hell did you get 11:20 ratio when your numbers were 1:1 ratio for the amount of veterans "avoiding" the place and a 9:10 ratio for people who come back or buy something based on the redshirt's performance?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:Why would a business push sales tactics that are ineffective?

They attended the LunaHound school of business?

*shrug*

They wouldn't, at least not unless they're trying to drive themselves out of business.

Manchu wrote:Why would a business push sales tactics that are ineffective?

Because , like the example i just gave.
You can easily find "numbers" to your sales pitch , 9/10 success rate.

But , how do you "number" the people that end up not going because of bad sales tactics?
You cant , there are no numbers.

But the people exist for sure , look at this thread.

@Kanluwen: That was kind of my point.
@Luna: Seems like if the hard sell resulted in decreased numbers they'd adapt or go out of business.

Actually Luna, those people that don't go because of "bad sales tactics"?

They'd be the 1/10 failure rate.

Because y'know...they have to VISIT the store and be turned off by the tactics in the first place.

I really miss the GW store that used to be in St. Louis. The staff there was really cool and laid back. Sure they kept you "updated" on all the new goodies coming out but usually the sales pitch would turn into real conversations about the hobby. They were also very patient with myself and my friends when we were relearning the game after a ten year absence.

They never griped about me playing grey armies before I was confident with my painting. The guys also fielded many rules questions by my friends and myself over the phone when we played at home.

There was one guy who was stealing bits from orders placed within the store who eventually got caught, but other than that one bad seed my experiences at GW St. Louis Mills was a very positive one.

If you avoid going to a shop because of human interaction, seek therapy.

Im not going to fall for that flame bait . I know you are smarter than that , and i have never said not going to GW = avoiding human interaction.

9/10 people found something that they'd have missed otherwise. Big deal.

Its just a random number used for us to discuss to , you dont need to throw additional attitude in it .

Just because you're a "vet" doesn't mean you're not a human, like any other customer. And if you're a "vet" trying out a new shop, and not discomforted by human interaction--you won't be interested in coming back to a shop that treats you as invisible. To say otherwise is ridiculous.

A vet tries a new shop , is to get to know the staff. Not to get to know what "product" they are trying to push ( again , MANY people already brought this up which you chose to ignore over and over again )
other than the new staff, GW item are still GW items New shop or not.

How the hell did you get 11:20 ratio when your numbers were 1:1 ratio for the amount of veterans "avoiding" the place and a 9:10 ratio for people who come back or buy something based on the redshirt's performance?

Because the first ratio was just in agreeing with you , the number is irrelevant , it was just used to say "yes i agree the numbers can exist , and sure we'll say the red shirts are successful 90% of the time"
The later number represent the vets that dislike GW stores thus are not factored in your original number. Which again , the actual number is irrelevant , no need to nit pick.

They attended the LunaHound school of business?

Again , you are so funny.

Zoned wrote:Lol at anticitizen013. I would like you to try to be "friendly and respectful" yet lead into a sales conversation.

Don't laugh at me, you'll hurt my internet feelings! It's possible. Like Luna said... it's about experience, or even common sense (which, granted, isn't very common these days). Treat others how you would like to be treated etc etc etc. If a redshirt came up to me and was friendly and such, I'd be much more inclined to ask their assistance.

I have been to every GW in the GTA. Yes, they ask me if I need glue, paint...etc when I'm making a purchase. Usually I tell them "no thanks." And you know what, that's always the end of the story! They don't pester me more about it. And occasionally, they do remind me about something I forgot, which boosts the sale a little for them.

Protocol. It must be done. Glue and paint are easy to forget, definitely. And usually when I go they ask me the same stuff and that's the end of that as well... but some of them push it...

No matter what you think of WD, the staff are instructed to sell/promote it. So don't get upset at the staff. That's like getting mad at a waiter for suggesting an appetizer or dessert.

I was using WD as an example because that's happened to me before. They asked if I wanted that and I said no. They then proceeded to try to push a freakin subscription on me. No, I do not want dessert for 2 years thanks.

And you would run a very poor retail store if you simply let customers browse and not talk to them. Face it, when someone says "I'm just browsing" that really means "I'm looking for something, just not sure what." It's the retail employee's job to help you with that decision! 'Cause if you reach a decision, that equals a sale!

I never said that you leave them alone completely. That doesn't work from a business standpoint. I agree you must talk to the customer since that's their job, but the way that they do it is just unreal sometimes.

And I have never, ever, in 13 years of going to a GW had an employee suggest something that wasn't related to my army. I'm fairly sure that 90% of these stories of "oooh, you play Tau, you want a Baneblade!" are internet myths. If I walk in and they ask me what I play, and I say Space Marines, we talk about my list, what's working and what's not. From there we talk about what units would complement my army, which I may or may not purchase later.

It's happened to me several times. I've had Eldar stuff pushed on me, Marines, Tyranids... just because you haven't seen it happen with your own eyes doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

As for business tactics... that I know little of, except what works on me. I know that instead of pushing an army on me, I would rather have them ask what I'm interested in. If I'm unclear I'd expect them to help. If I am clear with what I want, I expect them to ring me through so I can get the hell out of there and start painting!

LunaHound wrote:

If you avoid going to a shop because of human interaction, seek therapy.

Im not going to fall for that flame bait . I know you are smarter than that , and i have never said not going to GW = avoiding human interaction.

It's not flame bait. If you're being put off by the fact that, God help you, the staff are interacting with you...there's something wrong.

9/10 people found something that they'd have missed otherwise. Big deal.

Its just a random number used for us to discuss to , you dont need to throw additional attitude in it .
Yeah. It's a random number used for us to discuss...because y'know as ridiculous as it sounds... There was no attitude, unless you're choosing to continue this ridiculous series of accusing of trolling/flaming whenever you make yourself look like an undereducated tool. It's as simple as:
If you end up finding something based on what a redshirt suggests--what the hell is the harm? I mean, really. Their plan isn't to do everything they can to sway you into THEIR ideals. Their plan is to y'know...sell something.
Being that they're salespersons.

Just because you're a "vet" doesn't mean you're not a human, like any other customer. And if you're a "vet" trying out a new shop, and not discomforted by human interaction--you won't be interested in coming back to a shop that treats you as invisible. To say otherwise is ridiculous.

A vet tries a new shop , it is to get to know the staff. Not to get to know what "product" they are trying to push ( again , MANY people already brought this up which you chose to ignore over and over again )
other than the new staff, GW item are still GW items New shop or not.

Uh, how are you going to get to know the staff without listening to their spiel first? Once again:
That is their way of opening a line of communication with you. They're not going to walk up and say "Sup", not if it's a GW shop. A FLGS maybe, but they'll also usually try to open with...gasp. Looking at what you're looking at, and making a conversation based on that!

How the hell did you get 11:20 ratio when your numbers were 1:1 ratio for the amount of veterans "avoiding" the place and a 9:10 ratio for people who come back or buy something based on the redshirt's performance?

Because the first ratio was just in agreeing with you , the number is irrelevant , it was just used to say "yes i agree the numbers can exist , and sure we'll say the red shirts are successful 90% of the time"
The later number represent the vets that dislike GW stores thus are not factored in your original number. Which again , the actual number is irrelevant , no need to nit pick.

Um, no. If you're going to use exact numbers...there is a reason to nitpick.
A 90:100 success ratio, coupled with a 0:100 ratio for the veterans would be 90:200.

They attended the LunaHound school of business?

Again , you are so funny.

Answers in bold.

Where I live, the nearest GW is a mere 12-13 hr. drive away, so I get by mostly with mail order (the nearest GW stockist store is 2 and 1/2 hours away). However, I have always appreciated the personal touches that stores bring when you do visit (and spend money there). The smart stores will know their clients, and will figure out the proper approaches for them...

I have only been to actual GW stores about 6 times in the last 7+ years. Not because of any hatred of the redshirts (the few I've dealt with seemed ok, not overly pushy, but not too interested in selling/working either), but I find I enjoy more than GW games, and want to browse a store that carries more than their product.

When in the Vancouver (BC) area, my wife and I love to go to Imperial Hobbies in Richmond. Sadly, we have not been there for a couple of years, but every time we've been there in the past (we moved from North Vancouver to our current northern locale in '91), the owner/manager remembered us, would ask how we'd been, and generally chat about things other than gaming. It was a nice human touch... plus, they probably didn't see too many families come in, with father, mother and son all picking up product for their forces...

Whenever we're in the Calgary area, our choice of store has always been Sentry Box. Huge store, tons of product (including many Out of Print items), and the staff has always treated us well. We do most of our mail order from there, so they remember our names when they hear them, and a couple of years ago they hired a worker who is from our current hometown! So not only are they friendly (our last visit, my wife chatted with the owner for half an hour or so about Osprey Publishing Books and historicals), but we also have a local connection, too.

So in the end, I find it really depends on whether you receive the same type of "hard-sell" tactics regardless of your number of visits to a store (monthly, weekly, etc.), or if the staff adapt to you and your needs.

-Vilegrimm

But Vile...can you really expect to be remembered at what (essentially) is the fast food job of the hobby world?

That's the issue here. People seem to have problems with "not being remembered" or "hassled" at a corporate chain...but it's a minimum wage job, not a family business like your Sentry Box or Imperial Hobbies sound to be.

It's not flame bait. If you're being put off by the fact that, God help you, the staff are interacting with you...there's something wrong.

No , like i said many times already in this thread ( which let me remind you , you keep ignoring )
There is a difference between a chat in finding what army i field and play , perhaps even discussing on how to improve my army ( that i went into the store for )
vs
A chat that asks me what army i play and ends up asking me if i want to buy space marine drop pods. No , i dont need therapy thank you.

If you end up finding something based on what a redshirt suggests--what the hell is the harm? I mean, really. Their plan isn't to do everything they can to sway you into THEIR ideals. Their plan is to y'know...sell something.
Being that they're salespersons.

Like myself and others have already brought up numerous times already. There is a finesse to sales .
I assume you havnt find the new staff that have no idea how to naturally convince the customer what to buy. Instead they literally bring you a box of another factions army that made you think "WFT?"

Uh, how are you going to get to know the staff without listening to their spiel first? Once again:
That is their way of opening a line of communication with you. They're not going to walk up and say "Sup", not if it's a GW shop. A FLGS maybe, but they'll also usually try to open with...gasp. Looking at what you're looking at, and making a conversation based on that!

Again , conversation that ends in a sales pitch , ending nicely or badly = depend on how good that guy is.
Sure , for the benefit of the doubt i'll say ok! i believe you that all the red shirt you have bumped into have the gift of a silver tongue.
But do not dismiss the different dakka members ( myself included ) that says otherwise.

Um, no. If you're going to use exact numbers...there is a reason to nitpick.
A 90:100 success ratio, coupled with a 0:100 ratio for the veterans would be 90:200.

Okee dokee , perhaps you misunderstood the purpose of those numbers. So ok i wont say its your fault , i'll retype what i wanted to say:
You said "However the 5-1 was given by the new FLGS when I asked him about it. Amazing how up front people are."
Sure , lets just say 5-1 = very very successful .
But my point is , when he said 5-1 did he factor in the customers that were turned off by GW sales pitch? Thus that didnt end up going there?
he didnt , he cant count numbers of the people that didnt go. Thus part of the number is actually "missing" if you will.
Thats my point.

Also , misinterpreting what i said / ignoring what i said on purpose and then tell me i need therapy?
You can call it w/e you want , its trolling / flame baiting / rude.

LunaHound wrote:

It's not flame bait. If you're being put off by the fact that, God help you, the staff are interacting with you...there's something wrong.

No , like i said many times already in this thread ( which let me remind you , you keep ignoring )
There is a difference between a chat in finding what army i field and play , perhaps even discussing on how to improve my army ( that i went into the store for )
vs
A chat that asks me what army i play and ends up asking me if i want to buy space marine drop pods. No , i dont need therapy thank you.

I love how you focus in on the therapy part.
It's called HUMAN CONTACT. They're chatting with you to figure out your interests. It's a common sales technique. They use it all the time on places like Best Buy, where they use what is considered "horizontal marketing", to slide you from talking about the 360 game you're looking at...to the potential 360 accessories or the TV you own, etc.
Just like the redshirt is doing something as simple as

If you end up finding something based on what a redshirt suggests--what the hell is the harm? I mean, really. Their plan isn't to do everything they can to sway you into THEIR ideals. Their plan is to y'know...sell something.
Being that they're salespersons.

Like myself and others have already brought up numerous times already. There is a finesse to sales .
I assume you havnt find the new staff that have no idea how to naturally convince the customer what to buy. Instead they literally bring you a box of another factions army that made you think "WFT?"

You're right. I haven't run into that form of staff. Because I'm up front with them about what I'm looking for, the moment they greet me at the door. I don't give them the standard garbage that most gamers give them. You know exactly what I'm referring to. The "Oh, I'm not interested so leave me alone". If you give them that line...they come on stronger.
Bear in mind, however, every GW shop I've gone to has been out of state, given that there ARE no "official" Games Workshop stores within my state. Or insofar as I know, the last one was in Charlotte three years ago. So no previous rapport, no link. Just simple human interaction.
Ironically, several of those stores I even walked out...without buying a thing other than a White Dwarf or a Dan Abnett book to read on the trip home!

Uh, how are you going to get to know the staff without listening to their spiel first? Once again:
That is their way of opening a line of communication with you. They're not going to walk up and say "Sup", not if it's a GW shop. A FLGS maybe, but they'll also usually try to open with...gasp. Looking at what you're looking at, and making a conversation based on that!
Again , conversation that ends in a sales pitch , ending nicely or badly = depend on how good that guy is.
Sure , for the benefit of the doubt i'll say ok! i believe you that all the red shirt you have bumped into have the gift of a silver tongue.
But do not dismiss the different dakka members ( myself included ) that says otherwise.
Um, no. If you're going to use exact numbers...there is a reason to nitpick.
A 90:100 success ratio, coupled with a 0:100 ratio for the veterans would be 90:200.
Okee dokee , perhaps you misunderstood the purpose of those numbers. So ok i wont say its your fault , i'll retype what i wanted to say:
You said "However the 5-1 was given by the new FLGS when I asked him about it. Amazing how up front people are."
Sure , lets just say 5-1 = very very successful .

Five people convinced that your store has a great way of welcoming them to one person turned off by you being "overbearingly friendly" isn't very very successful. It's common, in that people LIKE being approached and made to feel welcome. A store owner is essentially acting as a host/hostess. Y'know, like when you invite someone into your home.

But my point is , when he said 5-1 did he factor in the customers that were turned off by GW sales pitch? Thus that didnt end up going there?
he didnt , he cant count numbers of the people that didnt go. Thus part of the number is actually "missing" if you will.
Thats my point.

Of course he didn't count the numbers of people that didn't go to the store because they were "turned off by the GW sales pitch".
Because those people...gasp...wouldn't be interested in the hobby anyways. I mean really. Where do you come up with these scenarios?

No need to make this personal.

Seems like we can a least agree that GW tactics can be mildly annoying but must be effective or GW would insist on some other kind of training.

Somehow, I think this thread is getting a little intense. Maybe everyone needs to chill out...

Oh, definitely Manchu.

The issue is that people whine about the tactics that GW choose. What the hell do they expect?
It's a low-paying job with a relatively high turnover. The sales are the bottom line. A family owned shop can afford a different tact.

Seconding what Manchu said. I, personally, find GW's tactics to be annoying but I'm sure they're effective for a lot of people. Everyone responds differently to different techniques.

I like Pie.

But see, Blake...like I just said right above you.

They're giving the best tactics they can to an undertrained workforce that's probably there just for a summer or second job.

Why should they devote anything more to it?

Right, which is why it's so frustrating when the local shop is so discourteous. The redshirt come-on can be a little much but, like I said, I prefer it to being ignored or otherwise offended.

Manchu wrote:Right, which is why it's so frustrating when the local shop is so discourteous. The redshirt come-on can be a little much but, like I said, I prefer it to being ignored or otherwise offended.

Exactly. It's ridiculous how many of the posters here apparently would be treated as nothings rather than as potential friends/customers.

I love how you focus in on the therapy part.
It's called HUMAN CONTACT. They're chatting with you to figure out your interests. It's a common sales technique. They use it all the time on places like Best Buy, where they use what is considered "horizontal marketing", to slide you from talking about the 360 game you're looking at...to the potential 360 accessories or the TV you own, etc.
Just like the redshirt is doing something as simple as

And i love how rude you are and expect people to dismiss an insult , not to mention dismissing the rest of the sentence.
Yes a convo is fine , they can ask me what i field ( this is my... 4th time saying this now? ) I think its FINE for them to ask and know about me.
and for the 4th time , I dont want a convo where i told him i play Eldar , and it some how ends with him bringing my a STUPID SPACE MARINE DROP POD.
Seriousely , will there be a 5th time? Sure you go to best buy to find a TV , they end up asking if you want a TV stand? UNDERSTANDABLE.
But what if they ask if you want a washing machine? then what?

You're right. I haven't run into that form of staff. Because I'm up front with them about what I'm looking for, the moment they greet me at the door. I don't give them the standard garbage that most gamers give them. You know exactly what I'm referring to. The "Oh, I'm not interested so leave me alone". If you give them that line...they come on stronger.
Bear in mind, however, every GW shop I've gone to has been out of state, given that there ARE no "official" Games Workshop stores within my state. Or insofar as I know, the last one was in Charlotte three years ago. So no previous rapport, no link. Just simple human interaction.
Ironically, several of those stores I even walked out...without buying a thing other than a White Dwarf or a Dan Abnett book to read on the trip home!

I love this , because this is just so Kenluwan. Again , you dismiss what other people goes through and place the blame must be on US. So because a sales pitch gone weird
it MUST be my fault that i made it that way? And its not because the inexperienced red shirt dunno how to push sales properly? No , you assume too much .

I know a couple of people posted previously that they have worked for GW in the past... I would like to hear exactly what they were trained. Maybe others in the retail business as well. I've never worked retail (my only job involves defending my country) so I don't know how these things differ between company to company.

Kan, aggressive tactics aren't a surefire thing and quite simply another method (ie more neutral) can easily replace that method and be more effective. Or it might not. From my perspective, the more aggressive a seller is, the less I want to buy from them, even if I need something.

So yes, we know they get paid minimum wage, but in this day and age at least they have a job. But that's another topic altogether.

They should devote more to it to better their sales? If you have poor salespeople then you're not making any cash.

Kanluwen wrote:Exactly. It's ridiculous how many of the posters here apparently would be treated as nothings rather than as potential friends/customers.

I don't think ANYONE has said that they would rather be ignored. What we are saying is we don't want the "OMG BUY BUY BUY NOW NOW NOW LOOK AT THIS BUY THAT SPEND YOUR MONEY" sales technique. A friendly sales pitch is great. You're in a STORE to buy something (generally), so there's no reason to fight over a person like they are the last one on earth.

In my admittedly limited experience, the "OMFG BUY BUY BUY NOW etc" sales pitch exists here on Dakka and not so much in the Bunkers.

Once again:
It's human contact and sales techniques. They're testing the waters to see what else they can get you interested in. Part of their job description is to move you away from just your entrenched ideas(Eldar to Space Marines) and make them more money.
Deal with it, or shop online.

And most times, in a situation like I mentioned at Best Buy?
They will ASK if you're furnishing a new apartment/home. In which case, they will try to sell you everything at once. Because, for some unknown reason...most people actually like convenience and one stop trips. Go figure.

Also:
Spell the fething name right. K. a. n. l. u. w. e. n. It's not complicated, it's not difficult.

And yes, I do place the blame on YOU, the customer. I've worked retail and service(2 years working at Borders as a cashier, and a year working as a waiter at TGI Friday's). I've spent my time dealing with crummy customers who've had a shoddy day and blow up in my The garbage customers try on you/try to hand you can be very ridiculous. No, you cannot return the CD you bought ten minutes ago at the store next door...and then burned onto a blank CD, right in the coffee shop within my view
No, I will not take the steak off your check because your RARE steak was still pink.
You ordered it that way.

If you believe that the therapy comment was exclusively aimed at you, get off the paranoia train. It's a blanket statement to the people who get up in arms whenever, God Forbid, a redshirt communicates with them.
And you're right. It doesn't help the conversation. But, it does point out that so many of the people who post here seem to be socially dysfunctional it's no wonder you end up with gajillions of posts/non-stop time on here.


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Manchu wrote:In my admittedly limited experience, the "OMFG BUY BUY BUY NOW etc" sales pitch exists here on Dakka and not so much in the Bunkers.

I would also like to point this out.

I've been to no less than six different stores, from all over the East Coast. I have encountered this approach, once. And that was on a day where I was the only customer.

Manchu wrote:In my admittedly limited experience, the "OMFG BUY BUY BUY NOW etc" sales pitch exists here on Dakka and not so much in the Bunkers.

It's the internet... things need to be flashy to get your attention . But in real life, the situation is quite different. I mean you won't get people freaking out and whining about the spelling of their name... and telling everyone they need therapy and have paranoia. But I think that's it for me in this thread as it has clearly degraded into something less than readable. Isn't that right, Kanlewan?

*twitch*

Anti wants hurts.

This thread was incomprehensible garbage from the first page on.
If you have a problem with how GW staff act, tell them to their fething face. How is the company supposed to know to alter their tactics if all you do is whine on the internet?

That's also why, like any other company out there, they have a Customer Service department.

K. a. n. l. u. w. e. n.

I think your still missing something here... cool they try to get me hooked from eldar to space marines... it makes sense... but not when they do it every time you go in there... and its the same guy doing...

EDIT: after reading your last post... I suppose its wrong to treat Red shirts like "garbage" but exploding in their face telling them how much you hate what they do is ok? Makes sense... I guess

If they're doing it, "everytime you go in there" then TELL THEM TO KNOCK IT OFF.

Jesus, how complicated is this?

Do I need to come up with some kind of magical anti-Redshirt Formula?

They are not mind-readers. They are average human beings(more often than not--under 18 also), at a minimum wage job and doing something that they're told to do. They do not know they are doing wrong unless you tell them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Buttlerthepug wrote:K. a. n. l. u. w. e. n.

I think your still missing something here... cool they try to get me hooked from eldar to space marines... it makes sense... but not when they do it every time you go in there... and its the same guy doing...

EDIT: after reading your last post... I suppose its wrong to treat Red shirts like "garbage" but exploding in their face telling them how much you hate what they do is ok? Makes sense... I guess

If you can't figure out a way to politely say "As I was in here last time, I am STILL not interested in buying a Space Marine Drop Pod. I am settled in with my Eldar, and not interested in a new army at all" then please. Don't ever come into a shop I'm working in.

@anti: Oh, I wasn't trying to criticize you're description, I know what you're referring to. I kind of agree with Kanluwen (which sounds like a cool Jedi name to me) that there is a strange, anti-social bent to the complaints that a strong sales pitch should be returned with such vitriolic hatred rather than a polite "I'm just browsing, I'll let you know if I need any help." When I told that to my redshirt in MI, he'd back off until I asked a question or struck up another conversation. I know that's not how it always works but I think when you get a real stinker it's more to do with that individual than GW or redshirts in general.