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Empchild wrote:No kidding wow. I heard European taxes were high but didn't know. I am atm the sole bread winner in the family and I thought times were hard I can only imagine if I made 25k and got slammed on taxes.
Just so you know, the pound in transference is about twice as much as a dollar, so its about $50k/yr and slammed. Which makes a bit more sense. No argument about the BA strikes, but I just see people giving equal value of the dollar to any foreign currency a lot around here.
mattyrm wrote:
Would you rather be a soldier (16k a year), a policeman around 21k but far more hours and far more stress) or a bloody fireman?
A job you can do right out of high-school and they want a better salary than a 20 year soldier. That is clearly taking the piss, and if you can somehow convince me otherwise i will send you a Christmas card. @ MGS of course the armed forces cant go on strike! You either do your job or you leave. You know, the way its SUPPOSED to work.
Here's the heart of the matter, not that they get paid highly, but that your vocation does not pay as much. As I've said, the soldiers of this country should be paid more. But to suggest that someone who risks life and limb every time they go to work isn't worth the money because someone else who risks life and limb doesn't get paid as much? That's just not logical. The relative in question from my family who works as a firefighter is in the US, now they really don't get paid much at all in comparison to the UK firefighters. I believe all fire fighters and soldiers should be paid a reasonable and comparable amount.
Wolfstan wrote:Sorry MGS, I'm all for social responsibility, but I think the system can go too far and I think what you propose is going too far. What happens when people say enough is enough and leave the country, don't take the promotion because it puts them in to the next tax bracket or cut back on their overtime because it doesn't work out cost effective? I think the higher tax rate that is place is fair enough and believe some sort of tax at source would be better than rates.
That the system of taxation should be refined is not in question here, the rigidity of the brackets is severely hampering, like my cousin cutting his cafe's opening times by 2 hours per day to reduce his risk of having to add VAT to the prices which would in effect bankrupt his business, it's inflexible and ludicrous. But the rich and especially the super-rich, should be taxed more heavily proportionate than those on low wages. Food, transport and so on only cost so much, someone doesn't require a different car for each day of the year. An income over the below cited 70k should be heavily taxed, consider the cost of utilities, groceries etc, the taxation should increase as wage increases.
mattyrm wrote:I would also point out that many "rich" people work like dogs. My brother earned 70k last year, but he works 70+ hours a week, all the wall street lot have ulcers and die of stress at 55. The thing is, the old school socialists dont seem to understand that if you take the piss out of people, they push back. And if you make a system easy to exploit (the ridiculous wellfare system in the UK) then people WILL exploit it.
The welfare state is being abused, we are in trouble, action needs to be taken. In precisely the same way we need to deal with the really costly abuses of this country's coffers as commited by the fat cats of big business, as we've been seeing, when they are allowed to get away with it, the nation is brought close to collapse...
Also, I work in the finance sector at a reasonably senior position, the city boys don't die at 55, they retire at 45 and buy organic farmhouses with their wives who are all called Jemima or Suki and plough them into the ground.
mattyrm wrote:
Still, once again the UK has learnt its lesson and the labour lot wont be in for another ten years. Although, people like him will still vote for them. They get their political alligence hard wired into them as children like suicide bombers. And i have voted for both labour and conservative. Something that the lefties will never do.
Your supposed to vote for who you think is the best, not what your parents told you to.
Sorry, is 'people like him' directed at me? Are you seriously suggesting I am politically left of centre because my parents were? If so that's a fairly personal and (again) inciteful and highly patronising comment. You're claiming your politically partisan credentials then comparing those who have left wing political views as being like suicide bombers. "Your supposed to vote for who you think is the best" precisely, hence I have never voted Conservative, simply because I have looked at their policies and never once liked them. I have, on multiple occasions, voted Liberal Democrat as well as Labour. 'Lefties'... hmmm, why not go the whole hog and call them 'Pinkos' or 'Commies'...
mattyrm wrote:
Oh and now someone will point out that Cameron went to Eton, like that matters. Ken Livingstone went to a posh school but they dont like to mention that.
Why would they mention that despite privileged background, several of the old Labour party became socialists due to their political and moral convictions. Tony Benn for example, gave up his peerage. You just derided people for following their parents now your citing individuals who went against their familial backgrounds.
Empchild wrote:No kidding wow. I heard European taxes were high but didn't know. I am atm the sole bread winner in the family and I thought times were hard I can only imagine if I made 25k and got slammed on taxes.
Just so you know, the pound in transference is about twice as much as a dollar, so its about $50k/yr and slammed. Which makes a bit more sense. No argument about the BA strikes, but I just see people giving equal value of the dollar to any foreign currency a lot around here.
Im going to have to check on what it;s at atm but last week when I looked because I was ordering stuff it was something low like $1.35 to every pound.
Listen, my children, as I pass onto you the truth behind Willy Wonka and his factory. For every wonka bar ever created in existance, Mr. Wonka sacraficed a single Oompa Loompa to the god of chocolate, Hearshys. Then, he drank the blood of the fallen orange men because he fed them a constant supply of sugary chocolate so they all became diabetic and had creamy, sweet-tasting blood that willy could put into each and every Wonka bar. That is the REAL story behind willy wonka's Slaughter House!
Empchild wrote:Believe it or not I saw about this on CNN last night. They said though a judge orderd the people back to work, is their any confirmation of this? I know here in the states the president can order protesters back to work and if they refuse troops can be sent in to arrest them does the U.K work that way at all?
The union could be fined and the individual workers could be sacked for violating their contract of employment. Management can't afford to sack 90% of their workforce for striking.
However if things get nasty enough, the law stops mattering.
A protracted illegal strike can become a lose-lose situation for workers and management. The miners' strike of the early 80s resulted in months of near-rioting, and the destruction of most of the UK coal industry directly or indirectly.
Empchild wrote:No kidding wow. I heard European taxes were high but didn't know. I am atm the sole bread winner in the family and I thought times were hard I can only imagine if I made 25k and got slammed on taxes.
Just so you know, the pound in transference is about twice as much as a dollar, so its about $50k/yr and slammed. Which makes a bit more sense. No argument about the BA strikes, but I just see people giving equal value of the dollar to any foreign currency a lot around here.
Im going to have to check on what it;s at atm but last week when I looked because I was ordering stuff it was something low like $1.35 to every pound.
darn site won't work for me for some reaosn so i'll take your word on it. Damn that sucks so that means im only making about 30 some odd k in pounds... now I feel poor again:(
Listen, my children, as I pass onto you the truth behind Willy Wonka and his factory. For every wonka bar ever created in existance, Mr. Wonka sacraficed a single Oompa Loompa to the god of chocolate, Hearshys. Then, he drank the blood of the fallen orange men because he fed them a constant supply of sugary chocolate so they all became diabetic and had creamy, sweet-tasting blood that willy could put into each and every Wonka bar. That is the REAL story behind willy wonka's Slaughter House!
Y'know, my father is a vehement anti-thatcherite. The other day, he said to me, 'You know, I hate this lot more than I ever did Thatcher. And that's something I never thought I'd say. At least with Thatcher, you knew what she stood for. You got what it said on the box. This lot are so corrupt, stalinistic, and double faced, it makes you ashamed to be a socialist. And what makes it even worse is that I voted for them.'
Makes you realise just how bad the government has gotten.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/18 21:14:52
The whole New Labour revolution turns out to have been about spin concealing bad management of public resources, featherbedding the Establishment and toadying to the petty bourgeouis press.
They forgot the political principle that, "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."
I still think the Tories would be worse and that is a terrible thing to have to say about the UK political establishment.
MGS, fair point, in hindsight that was a tad militant of me, i apologise. Im from Middlesbrough though and regualrly shout that line at most of my friends quite regularly.. as im sure your aware you can be perfectly good close friends with someone and be on the polar opposite Politcally! But.. there was no malice intended and im of course aware we dont know each other so.. i apologise for my antagonistic demenor.
Thing is, in the north east, i get the impression people dont really put much thought into the matter.. they just read the Daily Mirror or The Sun or whatever and thats the matter taken care of. No doubt people need to put some more thought into politics in general.
Regards the whole class war thing, i hate the way that it has turned into "i wont vote for him because he went to private school" It isnt even an argument to me and it seems irrelevant. But sure enough when were in the boozer it comes out all the time.. i want an MP to have a good education, not go to a rough as feth comprehensive in Middlesbrough.... sure he might be better fun to hang around, but i dont fancy the bloke debating foreign policy with the Chinese PM.
Ugh... I absolutely despise Tony Benn as well..
Lets just call it a day eh? We can talk wider politics all day long and never get to an agreement, its the nature of the beast.. lets get back to striking.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/18 22:09:00
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
Do you honestly think Cameron could be worse than Brown? Or whatever other sock puppet the Labour party would put up there?
I'm a product of the current government having grown up under them, and there are so many things wrong with this country and them that I'm not even going to go into them.
It's a problem because I despise Nick Clegg as well. Unfortunately, there seems to be no fourth option other than the BNP, so I'll stick firmly with the Monster Raving Looney Party.
mattyrm wrote:MGS, fair point, in hindsight that was a tad militant of me, i apologise. Im from Middlesbrough though and regualrly shout that line at most of my friends quite regularly.. as im sure your aware you can be perfectly good close friends with someone and be on the polar opposite Politcally! But.. there was no malice intended and im of course aware we dont know each other so.. i apologise for my antagonistic demenor.
Thing is, in the north east, i get the impression people dont really put much thought into the matter.. they just read the Daily Mirror or The Sun or whatever and thats the matter taken care of. No doubt people need to put some more thought into politics in general.
Regards the whole class war thing, i hate the way that it has turned into "i wont vote for him because he went to private school" It isnt even an argument to me and it seems irrelevant. But sure enough when were in the boozer it comes out all the time.. i want an MP to have a good education, not go to a rough as feth comprehensive in Middlesbrough.... sure he might be better fun to hang around, but i dont fancy the bloke debating foreign policy with the Chinese PM.
Ugh... I absolutely despise Tony Benn as well..
Lets just call it a day eh? We can talk wider politics all day long and never get to an agreement, its the nature of the beast.. lets get back to striking.
I think that's a shame, Tony Benn has been quite an inspiration for me, his attacks on the fascist movements in the UK nothing short of razor sharp. I have a strong degree of respect for a guy who forsakes his ancestral peerage, joins the socialists and engages those who oppose free speech with pure debating eloquence. He's a classical speaker and I've always enjoyed his ability in the forum.
Here's his very classy destroying of the loathsome John Bolton:
Whether or not you side with Tony Benn, and many do not fall as far left as his fabian political position, it's had to deride his ability as a speaker, or his wit or grasp of subject matter. I am in no way as far to the left as Mr Benn, but I do hold him in high regard as a speaker and find his commentary always worthy of attention.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/18 23:56:18
Ketara wrote:Do you honestly think Cameron could be worse than Brown? Or whatever other sock puppet the Labour party would put up there?
I'm a product of the current government having grown up under them, and there are so many things wrong with this country and them that I'm not even going to go into them.
It's a problem because I despise Nick Clegg as well. Unfortunately, there seems to be no fourth option other than the BNP, so I'll stick firmly with the Monster Raving Looney Party.
Cameron is smoother and better at handling the media than Brown. Some of that comes from the advantage of being in opposition. The media don't pick on him so much. However, I think a lot of people are fed up with smooth presentation and want real, effective policies and management. I don't think Cameron shows any advantage over Brown in that area.
Yeah fair point mgs, im sure that Benn really has some principles, but im a soldier through and through, and lets be honest, they arent very fond of people like me, some might even call it an irrational dislike seeing as we are all just working class lads, but .. i can admire someone who sticks to their guns, of course i can. Even if what they believe is polar opposite to what i believe.
And this leads on somewhat to me wanting to reinforce what Ketaras dad said! The reason i hate the labor lot so much is because they are hypocrites. The worst i have ever seen. At least when Bush invaded Iraq it was expected of a guy like him, at least when Thatcher slashed public services and crushed the miners it was expected from her. The labour lot!?!
Right wing one minute, left the other, lleft wing and invasion dont generally go together surely?
Its like Obama suddenly coming out as a creationist and wanting to invade Syria. At least we could expect that type of thing from a hardline republican!
GB and TB have contempt for people of my proffession, and yet they cry their crocodile tears about how "great the boys are" while Euan flies off to Harvard. If your the leader of the Labor party but happy to get into bed with the right you are a viper. At least Tony Benn is ALWAYS left, and Thatcher was ALWAYS right. I can admire that in a person. But this current lot say whatever they think we want to hear, snakes with skin.
Oh gak.. i started whinging again.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
mattyrm wrote:Yeah fair point mgs, im sure that Benn really has some principles, but im a soldier through and through, and lets be honest, they arent very fond of people like me, some might even call it an irrational dislike seeing as we are all just working class lads, but .. i can admire someone who sticks to their guns, of course i can. Even if what they believe is polar opposite to what i believe.
Actually that's not correct (I'm not picking on you mate, honest..)
He and the traditional socialists, to whom I do hold a modicum of sympathy with, far greater than my opinion of 'new' labour, would have nothing but respect for you as an individual. It is his wish to see you alive along with avoidance of civilian casualty and the horror of the act of killing that compels him to actively seek to stop it. I also suggest that as a man who flew for the RAF as a fighter pilot during the second world war in the North Africa campaign and lost his brother who flew on bombing raids over Germany, he has earnt that right far more than most. Living and fighting through the greatest war the world has ever seen certainly grants the right to hate all war and killing in my opinion.
His total opposition to armed action is something upon which I cannot support him, I have always believed in the necessity of conflict when presented with hostile and aggressive forces that want to take away my way of life, as I wrote in a pm to Fraz the other day, my motto on the bearing of arms and fighting against extremists is 'Status Quo or Death!'
I am also quite opposed to his views on a united Ireland (as are the actual majority of the population of Ulster) and I am not one bit pleased with the vocal support he afforded Sinn Fein since my friend's father was killed by an IRA bomb.
But I entirely appreciate his loathing of violence and I do applaud his strong moral and political stance. Here's a quote from him on New Labour:
"It's very interesting to me that some ex-communists in the Labour Party have been able to shift from Stalin to Blair and it hasn't been much of a shift...the shift from Stalin to Blair is a minor adjustment."
It's true, Cameron is like Tony Blair all over again. The smooth young leader, who knows how to handle the media- It's the reason I'm not interested in the Tories either.
I personally think it shows exactly what's wrong with this country-I'm a political animal, this will be the first election I can vote in, and I'm ceasing to care simply because I'm so disillusioned with our political system. Your choice seems to be between two identical centre left/right parties(they swap sides daily), and a bunch of facists....
MeanGreenStompa wrote:
His total opposition to armed action is something upon which I cannot support him, I have always believed in the necessity of conflict when presented with hostile and aggressive forces that want to take away my way of life, as I wrote in a pm to Fraz the other day, my motto on the bearing of arms and fighting against extremists is 'Status Quo or Death!'
I am also quite opposed to his views on a united Ireland (as are the actual majority of the population of Ulster) and I am not one bit pleased with the vocal support he afforded Sinn Fein since my friend's father was killed by an IRA bomb.
Mate, there you go, just some of the reasons i dont like the bloke. I served in NI, so thats something i feel strongly about, how, if you claim to serve democracy, pretend that NI can just suddenly become part of Ireland when a vast portion of said place does not WANT to be part of Ireland? As i said, i admire anyone who sticks to their guns, unlike the ridiculous way that Brown and Blair seem to behave. So i guess i prefer the bloke over those two snakes, but i cannot say i dont loathe a man who takes complicated issues such as Northern Ireland or Isreal and makes such polarizing statements. He seems to see things like that in black and white, when there are a thousand shades of grey. I genuinelly cannot agree with 90% of what the hardline left types like Benn say, just like i loathe the hardline right, precisely because i am a centrist.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
