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History is written by the winner, I guess. Hell, Nelson Mandela was a terrorist....

Albatross wrote:History is written by the winner, I guess. Hell, Nelson Mandela was a terrorist....

At the time of his incareration yes yes he was.

Emp, Ireland is far too complex a situation to get into via a forum due to its unique history, but the issue of the name and description of Northern Ireland is complex, and similarly the issue of citizenship and identity. In general, Unionists consider themselves British and Nationalists see themselves as Irish, though these identities are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

How then, can a terrorist be in the right when he is wanting to unify the place, and 1. Many many people in Northern Ireland do not WANT to be part of Ireland. 2. Many Irish people south of the border in no way supported the violence carried out by the IRA.

As i said, i dont even want to get into NI, but as i stated earlier. Im sure Collins considers himself a "patriot" as will the Omagh bomber.

Ive said it once, and ill say it again, i do not consider Patriotism a virtue.

I have to say though Emp, did you join the US army because you "love your country"? And no other reason?

I am not mocking you here, i genuinelly wish to understand. I was in an elite commando unit for Ten years. I deployed to Iraq twice, Afghanistan Twice, Northern Ireland and Sierra Leone among others. I wasnt in the regular army, i wasnt a driver, an RO, a storeman a clerk or a chef or a mailman or any of the plethora of jobs (90% of military jobs are not shock troops as im sure everyone is aware) that dont involve a high risk. I purposely aimed for what i considered the "top" because i wanted to be in a war, and i did not do it because i "love" my country.

Understand me here, im not having a go at you, of course not, Im sure that in your case, it was a good and honorable reason, but, i dont really understand the concept of loving a country and id like to try and get it.

I can be honest, i joined because i really wanted to test myself, i joined because i was a teenager and i thought i would go for the hardest thing i could so i would sound awesome saying "im a green beret!" to chicks. I thought with the arrogance of youth that i was invincible and i wouldnt get hurt anyway. I joined for a decent salary, a good pension, plenty of time off, excitement, adventure, comradeship. I joined because i was slightly brainwashed by the ad campaign after the Luxor tourist massacre (a big factor to me) and i thought "yeah! Ill kill those murdering arabs!"

Anyway, i digress. As you have seen from my many posts, i dont talk gak like so many soldier types do, i dont big myself up needlessly. The reason ive posted all of this is because i think that I joined for a pretty base bunch of reasons ultimately, and now i recently left and i just hit 30 and i thought.. you know.. i can be honest about it. I joined because i thought it would benefit ME.

Now im old(ish!) i dont really have the passion for it anymore. Im old and cynical and i think "fight for my country?! Its just ran by sneaky politicians, they dont care about little old me right?"

So tell me emp, what IS a good reason to "love" a country, and what motivates you to stay in the armed forces? I loved the military.. maybe you can motivate me into joining back up!

ShumaGorath wrote:I can enjoy a countries works and hate it's populace for being stupid, lazy, and self destructive.

Thats cool Aht, i guess the fact that we sit and talk like this on Dakka kinda proves that yeah, maybe things arent as grim as we like to think.

Well matt you pose several great valid points. The first being I Irish politics that of which I do know little about being that well understanding American Politics is hard enough so I don't want to blow out my brain trying to know more. The second being patriotic sentiments, and joining the military.. Well hmmmmm:

I would say growing up I dreamed of two things in my life the first being a teacher, and the next being a soldier. No I never wanted to be one of those support soldiers but a real dine in the wool soldier in the action. This dream really came to light when i signed up and I signed a contract to try out for army rangers. Sadly after being badly hurt in airborne school(broke both ankels on a jump). I wouldnt make my indoctrination school, and signed away my contract. This sent me to work instead with a new sytem called STRYKERS. I was an Infantry Mortarmen for 81mm and 120mm systems at Bat. Level. Served in Mosul Iraq and was hurt so after my contract was up got out. So the first time was just a shire love for my country as I decided NOT to go to college, and take our my familys businesses but instead to become basicly poor and live my dream of being a soldier.

Year after I got out I missed the lifestyle so much and the pride I felt every mourning putting on a uniform so I joined up again except this time in the national gaurd. I went to work this time though using my experiences inthe infantry and taking them to the Signal world which helped out a lot. Now I do retrans(going out in very small teams on our own to set up and live way outside the wire with communication equip) which is very hazardess since well my team is on it's own. I do full time work for the Gaurd now too at my state HQ but that is paper pushing. On drill weekends and deployments back to retrans.

Does this help any?

Emp, Ireland is far too complex a situation to get into via a forum

Hardly. It's not a complex issue at all, secessionist movements are rarely complex, just emotional and typically imbued with a lengthy history.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahtman wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I can enjoy a countries works and hate it's populace for being stupid, lazy, and self destructive.

The dude that does that comic used to work at NASA.

So what DOES make you a patriot?
Some say it's merely the geographical location, others say it's you agreeing with the Govt. or loving the people in it.

I love Australia becuase I was born and bred here, and even after living in the Middle East since the age of ten, I never forgot it. There is something especially beautiful about this country for me, something unique that I would trade for any other place. And, although I have never been in a life-threatening battlesituation, I imagine that if Australia was ever at threat I would fight to defend it.

Besides...

http://www.invadenewzealand.com/

Cheers Emp.. i used to feel like that, i always said id only stay in for 4 years and then.. well.. that turned into ten. So i thought i best try something else while im not arthritic.

Anyway, pride is a big one, of course i felt like that every day for years, an i still miss it. I still dont think its a love for my country though..

Probably a hard one to define to be sure.

@mattyrm: I'm assuming you're talking to Emphchild and not Emperos Faithful.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@mattyrm: I'm assuming you're talking to Emphchild and not Emperos Faithful.

not nessicarily where do you feel most at home in?

Yeah i was refering to The American not the Ozzie.

Emperors Faithful wrote:So what DOES make you a patriot?
Some say it's merely the geographical location, others say it's you agreeing with the Govt. or loving the people in it.

Its sort of a blend of all three, at least where the people are considered inseparable from the culture.

mattyrm wrote:Yeah i was refering to The American not the Ozzie.

Ah, don't you forget, mate. Empchild is part Ozzie. Said so hiself, see?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Empchild wrote:You know it is an interesting point you bring up about nationalism/patriotism. More comes to when is enough enough, and when should one love their country more. All Americans (short of the indians YEP I SAID INDIANS) are or were at one point foreigners. My own father came from Melbourne Austraila and my family is still all there...

BTW, apparently Native Americans moved to America somewhere through Asia when the two continents were joined at parts.

Tom Brady sucks.

Emperors Faithful wrote:BTW, apparently Native Americans moved to America somewhere through Asia when the two continents were joined at parts.

There are those that dispute the validity of the Land Bridge Migration theory. Native Americans chief among them. It's seen as a justification for all the land stealing, genocide, and whatnot.

Well, I wouldn't say it's justification exactly... (It was thiers way before colonists came along)

But you do wonder where Humans started out exactly. (Even the Garden of Eden would have to have a Geographical location)

Well, it is pretty common understanding that our species came out of Africa. Personally I think that the aquatic ape theory makes a whole lot more sense than the plain theory. Going back and forth between jungle and plain, may have been how our species developed; maybe from the plains, to the jungle. Possibly just becoming habituated to swimming, led us to be able to avoid many predators, combined with our social tendencies and rather profuse use of tools.

This is a decent of overview of the debate on the issue. If you run a search in google scholar you should be able to dig up some stuff about mitochondrial DNA, and the role it plays in determining geographic origin.

Um, you're saying they swam across? (JK)

EDIT: Ninja'd.

JEB_Stuart wrote:

sebster wrote:It's pronounced Istanbul, not Constantinople, Istanbul, not Constantinople.

Wrong, especially for when the song was written, and really for the entirety of history pre-1930. Historically speaking it has been and will always be Constantinople. Byzantium was a fishing village, but Constantinople was the first World city, and is sadly now a shadow of its former self....damn Turks.....

You're not the boss of me now. You're not the boss of me now. You're not the boss of me now and you're not so big. Life is unfair.

Khornholio wrote:I am a Canadian by birth. My patriotism for Canada is atom thin and revolves primarily around the fate of the National Hockey Team in international tournaments. I always felt that if your nation's identity was intrinsically linked to a chain of donut shops, you're in BIG trouble.

But in my heart, I know Canada will always lead the world in being just north of the United States.

Also know as, "Canada, America's hat"

avantgarde wrote:Tom Brady sucks.

take it back!

IntoTheRain wrote:

avantgarde wrote:Tom Brady sucks.

take it back!

I think what he meant was that Tom Brady is no Peyton Manning and that the Colts are the superior team.

Emperors Faithful wrote:So what DOES make you a patriot?
Some say it's merely the geographical location, others say it's you agreeing with the Govt. or loving the people in it.

I love Australia becuase I was born and bred here, and even after living in the Middle East since the age of ten, I never forgot it. There is something especially beautiful about this country for me, something unique that I would trade for any other place. And, although I have never been in a life-threatening battlesituation, I imagine that if Australia was ever at threat I would fight to defend it.

Besides...

http://www.invadenewzealand.com/

I'd say agreeing with your Gov't is not in the least a definite trait of patriotism. The original patriots of the 18th century, the Founding Fathers, the French Revolutionaries and the Dutch Patriots were all very much opposed to their respective heads of state. And the Americans and French duly got rid of him... and the French also got rid of the Dutch Head of State (the shockingly incompetent William V) The Dutch Patriots then gladly became vassals of the French Republic... But the Dutch Patriots were a special case at the time, mostly wealthy merchants and industrials who didn't like the office of Stadtholder by default as they were fans of Johan van Oldenbarnevelt who called himself "a righteous patriot" before his head was chopped off after a mock-trial on dubious allegations of high treason (not very agreeable to Stadholder Maurice's ideas, following a different protestant sub-sect and engineering a 12-years cease-fire with Spain while Spain was Bankrupt and the Dutch had a good opportunity to get rid of them).

IMHO anyone who claims him/herself a patriot and declares a patriot does not question or criticize government failing/stupid/detrimental policies is in fact, NOT a patriot but a sheep. Patriots love their country/it's potential and (most of) the people therein. The Government can be patriots, but it's actually unpatriotic to unthinkingly support your government, no matter what, from a historical point of view.