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Tervigons are good, but as support units.

A long tyranid thread that hasn't circled the drain of crapptitude? XD

As for the above list: have you considered multiple mawlocs to deal with the long fangs? deep strike right on top of them, kill a few with the blast more than likely, you'll only eat a few rockets, and then assault the remainder or if you've caused enough casualities reburrow from wence you came, for about 350 points you could negate the rocket launchers entirely, jam the extra points into some more anti tank, they are about equally tough as a trygon for less points, just poorer in close combat.

then you'd have to deal with the raiders another way that isn't carnifexen I think zoan's with the FNP could do the job and maybe survive the inhabitants charge, ideally you want to surround the raider with termagants to possible force the squad inside to auto-die or be within charge range and let the zoans pop -> bugs charge.

Also, i would always, always give a warrior brood a heavy weapon for minor allocation shanagins.

also remember synapse, its not the old codex, virtually everything has a chance of going crazy and eating the closest model (even your trygon unless it was an alpha)

Nurglitch wrote:It strikes me that Terminators will have a harder time with hordes of poisonous little bugs than with big bugs or rending bugs. Not only will enough attacks eventually penetrate their Terminator Armour, but it will render Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers inefficient wastes of points Congratulations, your Wolf Guard Terminator with a Thunder Hammer and a Storm Shield just juiced two Hormagaunts.

As I said in a previous thread, in a test game I had a unit of 20 Hormagaunts with adrenal glands slay 5 Terminators (whammied down to WS1) on the charge at I6. And the beauty was that storm shields wouldn't have mattered a bit. The more I tinker with army lists, the more I'm trying to work little bugs in for matchups just like that one.

Mahu's new list

I like that list and please let us know how it does.

The tyrannofex is definitely getting a 2nd look from me. The capsule cannon may not be uber but the 48" range is huge. And he might be expensive but T6 W6 Save 2+ is nothing to scoff at.

Also I am interested to hear how the scytal stealers work for you. I can see them as a nice value buy with a nifty boost against transports, but I secretly hope they don't work well (already have 60 stealers built that will never have scytals )

The more I tinker with army lists, the more I'm trying to work little bugs in for matchups just like that one.

Yeah it has been my experience with the current dex that the super killy MCs just don't cut it against assault terminators. You need volume of attack and/or cheap wounds with maybe a counter charge from the big guys later. The trick will be getting that to happen before the little guys are wiped (assuming you are not running a horde army).

winterman wrote:Also I am interested to hear how the scytal stealers work for you. I can see them as a nice value buy with a nifty boost against transports, but I secretly hope they don't work well (already have 60 stealers built that will never have scytals

What is the cost for upgrading stealers with poison sacs vs scything talons. When I ran the wounds inflicted to point cost ratios, the poison sacs had to be 3 pts and the talons 1 point for them to have the same value added?

I think that the value of the warriors in pods, and the carnifexes in pods will be more apparent as the codex gets played.
The deathleaper is great, it really screws up those psy hoods... spacewolves are that exception, their autonegate is pretty powerful especially against the nids.
Hordes of little bugs, supported by one or two tervigons will become a "core" i think. The more I see and read, the more I feel like this codex is full of crazy combos. So far I have not seen a be all end all combo... although there do seem to be a few "weaker" options. Nevertheless, I have high hopes, and I don't even play the bugs.

Scytals are 2, adrenal glands and toxin sacs are 3.

You still get a bit of a boost to kill efficieny vs MEq even at 2 points per scytal, but also getting about a 14% boost in the chance to pop transports per attack. Not huge but nids can use every little bit in that department. Furious charge is definitely the best upgrade for transport killing but the MEq killing boost is only on the charge. So I dunno, I can see the scytals being an option for all around boosting.

The tyrannofex is definitely getting a 2nd look from me. The capsule cannon may not be uber but the 48" range is huge. And he might be expensive but T6 W6 Save 2+ is nothing to scoff at.

I think it's a better deal over Carnifexes with Heavy Venom Cannons. Supporting a ground element and adding a small amount of anti-tank shooting in the process looks extremely good.

I mean think about it. Two Carnifexes with Heavy Venom Cannons are 360 points. For a a little over a Hundred Points less, I reduce the amount of Kill Points I give up. I have a creature with a 2+ save which is huge in this codex, I have potentially the same damage out put at range, and I am only 2 toughness 6 wounds down.

The Carnifex has a better CC profile then it, but I can park the thing in the center of my lines, FNP it with a Tervigon, and I can absorb a great deal of fire power.

Scytals are 2, adrenal glands and toxin sacs are 3.

You still get a bit of a boost to kill efficieny vs MEq even at 2 points per scytal, but also getting about a 14% boost in the chance to pop transports per attack. Not huge but nids can use every little bit in that department. Furious charge is definitely the best upgrade for transport killing but the MEq killing boost is only on the charge. So I dunno, I can see the scytals being an option for all around boosting.

I went with Scything Talons because it seems like a better way to keep the unit cheap and up it's efficiency. Toxin and Adrenals seem a lot more situational then I would like as the Scything Talons may only give a minimal upgrade, but one that is always on. Plus, I may have inherited a bunch of Scything Talon Genestealers back when they where not that popular.

How many MCs can you fit into the FOC now?

It used to be 8 before right? 2 HQ, 3 Elite and 3 Heavy?

2 in HQ, 3 in Troops, 3 in Fast Attack, and 9 in Heavy. but they're gonna cost you.

Technically 17 (2 HQ, 3 Troop tervigons -- requiring 3 termagant units, 3 Harpies and 3x3 Heavy Carnifex broods).

You'll never see that build fielded though as min cost with no upgrades is about 2900 points. At that point you are probably play apoc with no FOC (so max allowed is kinda moot).

winterman wrote:Technically 17 (2 HQ, 3 Troop tervigons -- requiring 3 termagant units, 3 Harpies and 3x3 Heavy Carnifex broods).

You'll never see that build fielded though as min cost with no upgrades is about 2900 points. At that point you are probably play apoc with no FOC (so max allowed is kinda moot).

Sounds like the same idea as Black Templar and their potential of a dozen LRC in a single FOC game.

So... according to the new space wolf FAQ, GW says that furious charge DOES trigger off of counter-attack.

Tervigon farms with hive tyrant preferred enemy batteries just went from good to, well, really good.

Charging an 11 man termagant unit with the combo in place triggers 22 initiative 5 strength 4 poisoned attacks with preferred enemy. At 5 points per model (or free). That's going to make assaulting the tyranid wall a bit difficult.

Still, 11 Termagants are so much bolter-bait.

Depends on several factors. You can kill the Tervigon first, robbing them of all their CC benefit, and cause a bunch of wounds when he goes pop. If they're strung out from the Tervigon enough, their 6" Counter Charge move could bring them outside of the 6" range of the Tervigon's Toxin Sac and Adrenal Gland granting goodness.

Just read the local store's preview copy. The wording on the Hive Guard's impaler cannon was pretty explicit that even when fired indirectly, enemy units receive cover saves from terrain they are either in or adjacent too. Its still a great weapon system, but well placed transports can mitigate alot of its indirect badness.

The MCs looked great, but what really struck me was all the synergy that can be generated by having the big guys support the little guys. Mahu and Shep have hit on it in this thread and Shep's bat reps, but I felt the need to reemphasize. The whole codex seems to be geared to an "every bug has its role" type system. As a Marine gun line player, the immeadiate list that jumped out of me is a list with a Venomthrope, 3 Zoanthropes, 3 HG, at least one Tervigon and then a swarm of little bugs (50/50 mix of Termagaunts and Hormogaunts). It'll cost right around 1000 points to put 78-88 models on the board as a starting core. The Tervigon and Venomthrope make the little guys ridiciliously tough and the Zoansthropes and Hive Guard provide a core of anti-tank shooting. Flavor in HQ, Heavy and Genestealers to taste and you've got a decently fast list that will be incredibly tough to pry off objectives or just outright kill.

The Pyrovore was also very interesting with its heavy flamer and power weapon, but the minimal attacks and short range make it seem a little "meh." Could be a great unit though if your local meta has alot of orcs or drop pod lists.

Aduro wrote:I plan on taking two Venomthropes for my foot slogging list. They're going to give saves to my Gaunts and Big Guys. The mid size creatures shouldn't need their help as they'll be getting cover from the Gaunts. If people shoot the Venomthropes, they should be getting a 4+ save from the Gaunts, and it's that many less shots at the Big Guys either way.

My biggest fear is going to be Blast weapons. With so many bonuses for keeping your guys near each other, it's just going to be one big cluster frak, begging your opponent to toss pie plates at you.

I'm doing about the same. I have one pre-ordered and i know i am going to need more than one. Here is what my list is going to look like potentially:

HQ: Tyrant or Alpha warrior, possibly the gargoyle special character.

Elites: 2-3 venomthropes
2-4 zoanthropes
death leaper or lictors
Troops:

Tervigon
tervigon
30x termagants
30x termagants
either warriors, more termagants, rippers, or hormagaunts.

Fast attack:
2x big ole' brood of gargolyes 20-30 probably

Heavy support:
a trygon or two
possibly biovores depending how good they are in testing

it seems pretty ramshackle at this point, i don't really know what to do for my heavy support options.

Don't overlook the Tyranofex. Two Str10 shots, lobbed at a range of 48", with no penalty on the vehicle damage chart, by a critter with T6, W6 and a 2+ Sv. If he gets in close, he also has an 18" range Assault 4 OR Large Blast shot and a Template weapon, plus Three S6 Monstrous Creature attacks. He looks like a world of hurt to me.

Depends on the price they want for him, I guess.

Mahu wrote:I went with Scything Talons because it seems like a better way to keep the unit cheap and up it's efficiency. Toxin and Adrenals seem a lot more situational then I would like as the Scything Talons may only give a minimal upgrade, but one that is always on. Plus, I may have inherited a bunch of Scything Talon Genestealers back when they where not that popular.

I can see the point of using them, just because you have them. However looking at the math I prefer naked Stealers, but there is not much difference...

Ten naked Genestealers get an average 20 hits on the charge, Nine Taloned Stealers get an average 21 hits.
So you are giving up one life for an average of 1/2 an extra wound per assault and some protection from bad dice rolls.

Land Raiderish price tag I hear, which sounds about right compared to the prices on everything else. He's cheaper than two Fexes with Heavy Venom Cannons, though not as good in HtH.

The more I am building lists, the more I am finding that there really aren't any bad units in the codex just like there isn't any great units in the codex either.

Even the units that the Internet are foaming at the mouth over (such as Hive Guard, Zoenthropes, Tervigons) are not mandatory choices. I am not finding how 3 or 6 or 9 Hive Guard are a de facto choice. Investing that many points in units that can prove to be useless against Land Raider spam isn't a winning strategy. Just like massive Zoenthropes can easily be shut down by Rune Priests or Eldar.

What I am finding in the codex is a great emphasis on synergies between units. You need support elements, just like you need combat elements, just like you need shooty elements.

It's just finding the balance between all of those concepts that build successful Tyranid lists.


On the Tyrannofex, I am going to see if I can actually make a Battle Report this weekend with my proposed Tyrannofex supported by Tervigon army and see how it plays out. I am hoping it will be either against our area's extremely good Guard player, our good Ork player, or our good Space Wolf player. All lists that give me concern for different reasons.

winterman wrote:Scytals are 2, adrenal glands and toxin sacs are 3.

You still get a bit of a boost to kill efficieny vs MEq even at 2 points per scytal, but also getting about a 14% boost in the chance to pop transports per attack. Not huge but nids can use every little bit in that department. Furious charge is definitely the best upgrade for transport killing but the MEq killing boost is only on the charge. So I dunno, I can see the scytals being an option for all around boosting.

Thanks on the points: Based on that update, I get the following data: The tables can be easily read by hitting quote and reviewing my post in the dialogue box!
Assuming stealers get the charge

Genestealers VS Marines
Base Pts # Kills Ratio PTS/Kills
Naked 14.00 0.56 25.20
Poisoned 17.00 0.83 20.40
Scytails 16.00 0.65 24.69
Scytails & Poisoned 19.00 0.97 19.54


The lower the ratio of pts to kills the greater the value (more bang for your buck). Naked has a ratio of 25 (or it takes 25 pts to kill 1 SM in CC). Scytails take 24.7 points...not much of a change. Whereas Poisoned only takes 20.4 . So how does this play out:

Genstealers Type # models Pts/Unit Kills/Unit
Naked 10 140.00 5.56
Poisoned 8 136.00 6.67
Scytails 9 144.00 5.83
Scytails & Poisoned 7 133.00 6.81

There isn't a huge difference between Poisoned and "Scytails + Poisoned" even though "Scytails & Poisoned" has the lowest ratio at 19.5 pts per kill. Now these ratios don't predict the vulnerability of the unit in question so the marginal gain you get, say in taking "Scytails + Poisoned" over Poisoned, might not make up for the added vulnerability of a 19 pt genestealer. Even if you look at Poisoned VS Naked, you are getting 1 extra MEQ kill in CC with poisoned but are giving up 2 wounds in the process .

In regards to popping rhinos:
Assumning the Rhino moved 6"
Here I am comparing models cost vs the number of rolls on the Damage Chart

Base Pts # Rolls DC Ratio PTS/Rolls DC
Naked 14.00 0.25 56.00
Poisoned 17.00 0.25 68.00
Scytails 16.00 0.29 54.86
Scytails & Poisoned 19.00 0.29 65.14

Well the best option (so far) is Scytails it takes 55 pts of scytail models to get 1 roll on the damage chart, compared to Naked which is a only a point or so more .

How about popping a rhino!

Base Pts # Kills Ratio PTS/Kills
Naked 14.00 0.08 166.84
Poisoned 17.00 0.08 202.59
Scytails 16.00 0.10 163.03
Scytails & Poisoned 19.00 0.10 193.60

Scytails is the lowest with 163 pts to pop a 35 pt transport vs naked which only 4 points higher. Or look at it this way.

Genstealers Type # models Pts/Unit Kills/Unit
Naked 10 140.00 0.84
Poisoned 8 136.00 0.67
Scytails 9 144.00 0.88
Scytails & Poisoned 7 133.00 0.69

Dear heavens I hate transports .

In summary, I personally wouldn't take Scytails to increase my chance of killing Marines or damaging Rhinos over plain old naked. I would consider taking toxin sacs (poisoned) on stealers to kill Marines.

Need to look at Furious charge and finish my little comparison at a later date.

Mahu wrote:The biggest thing versus Space Wolves is shutting down the Rune Priests, though that is hard to accomplish. Like I said, at least against Hoods, you have the Deathleaper giving you the D3 advantage. Against Space Wolves they can put multiple Runic Weapons in range and have two chances to shut that down each power you cast. I haven't found Jaws to be that troublesome against Space Wolves as you can Deathleaper the Rune Priests leadership and put a Shadows of the Warp on them easily. It never got off once when I played against the Wolves. My main problem was dealing with Logan and his Terminator retinue.

My area is competitive (which I prefer), but tends to get stuck in a rut. There isn't a lot of creative builds here, so I can at least bank on expectations.

Runic weapons don't stack vs psychic powers.

Mahu as stated in the previous post the SW cannot stack the 4+ versus psychic powers with their rune swords... Check out the new SW FAQ. That will make a huge diiference in regards to the effectiveness of your Zoies versus AV14. Go tear up some SW!

G

Nurglitch wrote:Still, 11 Termagants are so much bolter-bait.

They are... if they aren't enjoying the 5+ cover save from their new buddies and FNP from the Tervigon. From what I've seen if you're shooting the gaunts in front that's what you'll be faced with.

An example on average

8 marines rapid fire - 16 shots 10.56 hits
10.56 hits - 6.9 wounds

Now add in

5+ cover - 4.6 wounds
FNP - 2.3 wounds

That doesn't include special / heavy weapon of course. I've seen the Tervigon/5+ cover/gaunt thing in a couple games and the vulnerability to small arms fire can be reduced by quite a bit. Additionally in the armies I saw there were considerably more than 11 termagants when they got in rapid fire range. Killing the 5+ cover save granting unit (who's name I can't seem to remember) becomes a priority IMHO.

Nurglitch wrote:Still, 11 Termagants are so much bolter-bait.

You mean the [/i]free][/i] 11 termagaunts are so much bolter-bait.

Just keep tervigons in the corner and spawn until you can't spawn any more.

ramongoroth:

Okay, let's go with flamer-bait then. I think it's time for Space Marine players to invest in that Whirlwind they've been meaning to. Or a Thunderfire Cannon.

imweasel:

I don't have the codex, or even read it, but I'd speculate that there's an opportunity cost to having a Tervigon just sit and sh!t Termagants.

Lots of interesting things to consider. Keep experimenting and providing info please. Does anyone know if the rumour that a gaunt brood can get a flamer is true? And if so, does anyone see any use based on whayever the cost is? I'm thinking that a unit of termagants that gets hosed on its way to the enemy might still have a couple guys left and if one had the flamer than might be able to do a little damage. Just wondering

Gaunts can have one flamer per 10 Gaunts in the brood. It's Str3, but rolls to wound vs the targets Str rather than Toughness. Don't know the point costs on it.