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dogma wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:The funny thing is that was one of the most advanced speedboats on the planet.

Will no one think of the boat?

It was a pretty impressive piece of hardware.

I agree I am crying deep inside for the boat!

One of the reasons for cloning.

This actually has me interested in something. From some quick research it appears that the whale meat market is not that strong. The most recent data I found (a 2005 Icelandic report as to why whaling was not economically viable for them) puts the price of whale meat in the far east at between $70 and $200 USD/kg with total consumption of whale meat in Japan being approximately 3,000 tons per anum. Now, the Japanese claim that it's part of their culture, etc. but when that little meat is consumed at that high of a price how is that part of the culture as a whole? To give you an idea of how much whale meat is eaten per year in Japan it's about 0.023kg, or 23 grams of whale meat per person at the cost of between $1.61 and $4.60 per morsel. That's nothing. There are more grams of fat in your average burger than whale meat consumed by your average Japanese citizen in a given year. You can't compare whaling in Japan to the consumption of domesticated animals like cows, chickens, and hogs in other parts of the world because its so utterly inconsequential. If you eliminated whaling entirely you'd be denying them 23grams of protein over the course of an entire year, I think they'll survive without one piece of sushi.

When something is that scare and that expensive how is it a part of the culture anymore? If you want to say its a tradition then fine, do it traditionally. Grab a wooden boat and a hand thrown harpoon and get to it. Keep that tradition alive.

I'm just really not grasping the Japanese position on this beyond anything besides just trying to piss in the face of the rest of the world.

Tyyr wrote:This actually has me interested in something. From some quick research it appears that the whale meat market is not that strong. The most recent data I found (a 2005 Icelandic report as to why whaling was not economically viable for them) puts the price of whale meat in the far east at between $70 and $200 USD/kg with total consumption of whale meat in Japan being approximately 3,000 tons per anum. Now, the Japanese claim that it's part of their culture, etc. but when that little meat is consumed at that high of a price how is that part of the culture as a whole? To give you an idea of how much whale meat is eaten per year in Japan it's about 0.023kg, or 23 grams of whale meat per person at the cost of between $1.61 and $4.60 per morsel. That's nothing. There are more grams of fat in your average burger than whale meat consumed by your average Japanese citizen in a given year. You can't compare whaling in Japan to the consumption of domesticated animals like cows, chickens, and hogs in other parts of the world because its so utterly inconsequential. If you eliminated whaling entirely you'd be denying them 23grams of protein over the course of an entire year, I think they'll survive without one piece of sushi.

When something is that scare and that expensive how is it a part of the culture anymore? If you want to say its a tradition then fine, do it traditionally. Grab a wooden boat and a hand thrown harpoon and get to it. Keep that tradition alive.

I'm just really not grasping the Japanese position on this beyond anything besides just trying to piss in the face of the rest of the world.

very solid evidence I must say. I agree makes very little sense with figures like that.

Whales are used for other stuff though, aren' t they? Like perfume and lipstick - cosmetics and stuff?


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Plus, the person who compared whale-hunting to chicken-farming made me face-palm so hard, I nearly broke my forehead.

They were at one time. I don't believe they are now. Most of that duty has been taken over for synthetics. I wouldn't want to try and market a whale derived cosmetic in today's society.

Besides, the quantity of whales harvested is still low, only about 1,000 I believe. You can support the cosmetics industry on that. Maybe some ultra high-end stuff but nothing with any real economic impact.

They also regularly miss quota because of all the protest activity directed towards them.

dogma wrote:They also regularly miss quota because of all the protest activity directed towards them.

Excellent.

And from the (questionably) pro-human perspective:
$5 million boat to preserve whales, or $5 million to feed and clothe starving humans....

Neither I particularly like but one I can exploit far more efficiently. Leave the bloody whalers alone.

Oldgrue wrote:And from the (questionably) pro-human perspective:
$5 million boat to preserve whales, or $5 million to feed and clothe starving humans....

Neither I particularly like but one I can exploit far more efficiently. Leave the bloody whalers alone.

You do realize that they are poaching? Those poor innocent whalers.

The Japanese "whaling industry" is a pork barrel project.

There is no widespread desire to eat whale meat.

There is no deep-seated whale cuisine in Japanese culture.

The "industry" consumes a large amount of subsidy every year to keep it afloat.

ShumaGorath wrote:You do realize that they are poaching? Those poor innocent whalers.

Given my long standing misanthropy I understand your confusion. My lack of empathy for humanity is well founded.

But you seem to have me confused for someone who prioritizes 'endangered' animals over Humans. I suspect i think of the whales far more than they think of me yet neither of us really cares for the other. Octopi are measurably more intelligent than multi ton oceanic roombas while just as likely to be on my menu. So when one well-intentioned group of humans starts dumping millions of dollars into saving a Whale rather than staving off the suffering of a being they can communicate with I find their empathy both touching and masturbatory.

Perhaps I don't hold poaching to the same level of urgency as the enlightened self interest of caring for humans in need. Perhaps I'm wrong and a $5million boat is just what our own suffering species needs. However its just as likely that the investment of millions of dollars can actually help develop many humans as contributing members of society. That $5 million is sorely needed in minor social projects like education.

Save the Whales indeed!

I hate that douche. I wish the Japs would spill a bit of blood and give me a reason to watch that stupid show. Oh well next up fur wars rawr!!

So when one well-intentioned group of humans starts dumping millions of dollars into saving a Whale rather than staving off the suffering of a being they can communicate with I find their empathy both touching and masturbatory.

Because billion dollar food aid packages have been sooo successful.

Perhaps I don't hold poaching to the same level of urgency as the enlightened self interest of caring for humans in need. Perhaps I'm wrong and a $5million boat is just what our own suffering species needs. However its just as likely that the investment of millions of dollars can actually help develop many humans as contributing members of society. That $5 million is sorely needed in minor social projects like education.

Five million dollars is nothing. It's a drop in the bucket, and it's a damn big bucket. Argue about the strange and unintelligent use of a world class stealth/speed boat, but arguing against a seemingly effectual anti poaching campaign with a measurable effect and clearly possible goals by saying that the miniscule amount of money they utilize to (seemingly effectively) combat one problem by saying that that same amount of money would be better served by being thrown at a problem, which already receives hundreds of billions annually globally (feeding poor people) is dumb.


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ounumen wrote:I hate that douche. I wish the Japs would spill a bit of blood and give me a reason to watch that stupid show. Oh well next up fur wars rawr!!

I said the same thing about deadliest catch. Orange country choppers too. Honestly, if we could get the Japanese to start killing our reality show crews we'd all be better off. Jersey Shore is first.

There not really poaching.
The whale laws re pretty much agrred upon except by japan. and since it is international waters there really not breking a law.

garret wrote:There not really poaching.
The whale laws re pretty much agrred upon except by japan. and since it is international waters there really not breking a law.

Thats definitely true, but it's also somewhat of a technicality. Overfishing on neutral waters is a very contentious issue, especially with local fishers. Living in maine I hear a lot of flak sent their way from local fishers following laws that they can't be bothered to. Fish, and even moreso whales are not territorial, overfishing in international waters damages fisheries everywhere. The laws were established globally specifically because of that fact. Overfishing is quite similar to airborne pollution, it's not particularly easy to regulate but it's effects are world wide.

Im not saying whaling isnt bad im just saying it is no different from us eating thousnds of cows and pigs. Or hunting and eating deer and wild pigs or bears. if we stop killing all those animals we have to stop all of those.
Sea sheaprd has noble goals. but there going about it all wrong.
The only true way to change something in peacefully.
violence never trully changed anything. Remember ghandi,ceser chavez or mlk.

Oldgrue wrote:
Perhaps I don't hold poaching to the same level of urgency as the enlightened self interest of caring for humans in need. Perhaps I'm wrong and a $5million boat is just what our own suffering species needs. However its just as likely that the investment of millions of dollars can actually help develop many humans as contributing members of society. That $5 million is sorely needed in minor social projects like education.

Alternatively, the Japanese allow the whaling industry to die and use the subsidies KK mentioned in order to develop an industry with a chance at profitability.

Im not saying whaling isnt bad im just saying it is no different from us eating thousnds of cows and pigs. Or hunting and eating deer and wild pigs or bears.

It is though. Firstly many of these species are either endangered or at risk of becoming so. Secondly, and this isn't relegated to whaling alone, japanese (and most of asia) large net fishing despite moratoriums risks the destruction of global fisheries and serious damage to the stocks ability to reproduce.

Sea sheaprd has noble goals. but there going about it all wrong.
The only true way to change something in peacefully.
violence never trully changed anything. Remember ghandi,ceser chavez or mlk.

They aren't violent in their methods, and violence has changed a hell of a lot of things. They are essentially damaging the industries ability to be profitable, which is the most effective thing they could attack.

japan doesnt really have the land to raise all that meat so they kinda have to fish that much.

garret wrote:japan doesnt really have the land to raise all that meat so they kinda have to fish that much.

Japan imports the vast majority of it's food. They don't have to do anything. They are not self supporting. It's also not only unnecessary, but dangerous for them to fish through moratoriums and bans. You can't replenish a fish population that's been fished to extinction, and that would cause them a hell of a lot bigger a problem then slightly reduced takes.

Frazzled wrote:

dogma wrote:They also regularly miss quota because of all the protest activity directed towards them.

Excellent.

yup, agreed.
considering how many species of whales are on the endangered list, and how many will be, i doesnt really matter how many are taken, sooner or later there wont be any.
whaling, for what ever reason is outdated, but then again as a canadian i cant stand on a moral highground and say its evil, we after all have our own demons when it comes to harvesting mammals from the oceans. i'll just say i support the activites of the whale lovers, and hope that next time they do manage to foul a screw. (that is if they ever get another chance).

Hmmm let's see..

1.) A Japanese ship killing whales- ILLEGAL
2.) Fishing in Australian waters without a permission- ILLEGAL
3.) Ramming a boat, and wrecking it- ILLEGAL
4.) Injuring people on the boat- ILLEGAL

gtfo Japan!

r3n3g8b0y wrote:Hmmm let's see..

1.) A Japanese ship killing whales- ILLEGAL

BZZZZZZZZZZ WRONG.

It's completely legal. It's done via a loophole, but it's still legal. It's these idiot Whale Wars terrorists who are performing acts of Piracy and other Illegal acts.

Gwar! wrote:

r3n3g8b0y wrote:Hmmm let's see..

1.) A Japanese ship killing whales- ILLEGAL

BZZZZZZZZZZ WRONG.

It's completely legal. It's done via a loophole, but it's still legal. It's these idiot Whale Wars terrorists who are performing acts of Piracy and other Illegal acts.

whales are nearly extinct, they're protected by law mate!

r3n3g8b0y wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

r3n3g8b0y wrote:Hmmm let's see..

1.) A Japanese ship killing whales- ILLEGAL

BZZZZZZZZZZ WRONG.

It's completely legal. It's done via a loophole, but it's still legal. It's these idiot Whale Wars terrorists who are performing acts of Piracy and other Illegal acts.

whales are nearly extinct, they're protected by law mate!

Yeah, because decades of having a grand total of TWO nations hunting them has ensured they are "nearly" extinct.

Also, check your facts. Japan have the right from the Whaling organisation thing (can't remember the name) to issue Science Permits to hunt whales. It's legal, plain and simple.

Tyyr wrote:When something is that scare and that expensive how is it a part of the culture anymore? If you want to say its a tradition then fine, do it traditionally. Grab a wooden boat and a hand thrown harpoon and get to it. Keep that tradition alive.

I truly hate all this culture they are thowing at us, if it really is a part of their culture, why didnt they find Australia first? I honestly dont believe for years they managed to sail from Japan to Antartica to hunt whales.

Truth is they screwed up whaling in their area now they travel to the bottom of the earth to feed the greedy and arrogant rich of Japan

Squig_herder wrote:Truth is they screwed up [Something] in their area now they travel[Somewhere Else] to feed the greedy and arrogant rich of [Country]

Congrats, you just described 100% of countries on Earth.

Gwar! wrote:

r3n3g8b0y wrote:Hmmm let's see..

1.) A Japanese ship killing whales- ILLEGAL

BZZZZZZZZZZ WRONG.

It's completely legal. It's done via a loophole, but it's still legal. It's these idiot Whale Wars terrorists who are performing acts of Piracy and other Illegal acts.

Not all of it. There is certainly a number of vessels fishing legitimately for scientific research, but then there is another fleet claiming that and not actually doing so. The amount of meat hitting the market is markedly above what should be possible given capturing and tagging, and harvesting for scientific research, especially given the "quotas" regulated by their government. There are legal ways to kill a white rhino, shouting "It's coming right for us" before bagging your third for the day is poaching.

Yeah, because decades of having a grand total of TWO nations hunting them has ensured they are "nearly" extinct.

Also, check your facts. Japan have the right from the Whaling organisation thing (can't remember the name) to issue Science Permits to hunt whales. It's legal, plain and simple.

Given the largely unregulated aspect of central asian fishing through the 80's and 90's your not particularly accurate here. Sharkfin soup is delicious, and very rarely is it particularly legal if you follow its production down the chain.

Gwar! wrote:

Squig_herder wrote:Truth is they screwed up [Something] in their area now they travel[Somewhere Else] to feed the greedy and arrogant rich of [Country]

Congrats, you just described 100% of countries on Earth.

this isn't the point though, the point is that Japan keeps on killing a nearly extinct species and noone seems to give a feth!