So, what's really wrong with GW?

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**wyomingfox**

Let's see. I would say that my marks against GW include poor spelling, bad grammar, wrong word usage, ambiguous language, and inconstancy, in regards to their rulebooks.

Beyond that this:

GW wrote: The FAQs on the other hand are very much 'soft' material. They deal with more of a grey area, where often there is no right and wrong answer - in a way, they are our own 'Studio House Rules'.

A corporation that developes a game can't have "house rules" to said game as a "house rule" means that the rule is derived outside of the company; GW can't be ouside of itself; this is just a weak attempt to dodge thier responsibilities.

**Vulcan**

brettz123 wrote:
Vulcan wrote:
brettz123 wrote:There are plenty of other companies with better rules you can use.

Really? There are other non-skirmish fantasy battle games that have enough people playing to make finding a game as easy as it is for WFB? Why hasn't anyone told me about them?

1. I didn't mention easy so don't put words in my mouth.

2. Stop being lazy and get some of your friends to try something new...... I imagine you have some? Friends that is.

3. Give it a shot....... you can even use the same miniatures.

Of my friend - my actual friends, who I hang out with regularly - don't play WFB. Or any other wargames.

I play WFB by going to the FLGS and waiting for an opponent. The vast majority play (wait for it) 40K or WFB, with Privateer's skirmish game being the only other real competition.

So it's not convincing my friends to play a new wargame - they aren't interested in wargames. It's convincing random strangers to play a new wargame. And for that matter, convincing the owner of the FLGS to carry said new wargame, which has a much smaller target audience and much slower turnover.

Not so simple, is it?

As as for your second point... you don't know me, so DON'T INSULT ME!

**brettz123**

Well sounds like you are pretty hosed then arent you? Still a little work on your part to make friends with the people at your LGS would go a long way. But if you don't want to not much is going to change that.

**Vulcan**

brettz123 wrote:Well sounds like you are pretty hosed then arent you? Still a little work on your part to make friends with the people at your LGS would go a long way. But if you don't want to not much is going to change that.

Since I've only been there to play a half-dozen times so far, and haven't seen any one person (aside from the staff) more than twice, it would be a bit premature to call the people I've met there friends, wouldn't it?

Try getting the whole story before making judgements. That way people won't get irritated with your uninformed statements.

**brettz123**

I think my comments still stand..... make friends and then work on getting them to play another game. Or keep whining and being unhappy the call is yours. Doesn't make anything I said bad advice.

**Alpharius**

People seem to be getting a little hot in here.

Please remember the rules of this forum, and try to not make it personal in here, OK?

**Vulcan**

brettz123 wrote:I think my comments still stand..... make friends and then work on getting them to play another game. Or keep whining and being unhappy the call is yours. Doesn't make anything I said bad advice.

On the other hand calling me lazy because I want to see someone more than twice before considering them a friend...

**nels1031**

Alpharius wrote:People seem to be getting a little hot in here.

Please remember the rules of this forum, and try to not make it personal in here, OK?

Did you honestly expect anything less? Not trying to sound like a jerk, but these threads are always the same drivel.

**brettz123**

Hot it's freaking cold as hell out here right now. Can't wait for the winter to be over.

But seriously can we just stop with these threads. What is the point. I can sum up each and everyone of these in little time at all:

Poster 1: Ohhhhh man GW really sucks. Lets get together and fix this crap!!!!!

Poster 2: Yeah GW does suck but you should write them a letter!!!!!! And be polite.

Poster 3: Screw being polite. GW minis cost too much and White Dwarf really sucks too.

Poster 4: True quoted for truth!!!!!!!!!

Poster 1: No we need to stay on topic the last 5 threads about this have all gotten derailed.

Poster 3: No really GW sucks and I am never going to buy anything from them again for at least two months.

Poster 5: What internet boycotts never work fools!!!!!

Poster 6: OMG you are such a GW fanboi and apologist. I hate you.

Poster 7: Only Hitler would charge that much for miniatures.

Poster 5: I am not an apologist and at least the Nazis knew something about price control. Jeez I hate you all.

Random Mod: Can we please make sure this thread stay s on topic and also any talk about GW pricing needs to go here.

Poster 8: But what about the children?

Poster 3: Feth the children I hate GW everyone should play Washmachine!!!!!!

Poster 77: What the feth does "feth" mean I haven't read all 50 of Gaunt's Ghosts books yet.........

Poster 9: But it isn't fair that they sent out C&D letters people!!!!!

Poster 8: Children in Africa starve and can not afford GW plastics that cost more then the metals they replaced!!!!! The corporation was evil it was so much better when they started in 1766 and a miniature was only one pence.

Repeat ad naseum.........

**Kanluwen**

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:My only real gripe about GW is that all of their stuff is SOOOO EXPENSIVE. I mean, if the stuff they sold was a bit more reasonably priced, so many more people would get into the hobby. I have no idea why they don't seem to realize this, but it's true. I've been a lurker with 40k since I was 11 years old, now, 4 years later I actually have money to start now. They just lost 4 years worth of potential things I could have been buying. I now refuse to buy anything directly from GW.

Other than that, they are golden to me, and I have a generally positive opinion about them.

None of this is true.

The hobby was -relatively- cheap during RT.
It was not widespread.

The reason more people don't get into the hobby is it's a hobby. Some people don't like spending their free time building models or painting, but prefer to go get smashed at a bar or play airsoft or any number of things.

**Kilkrazy**

NELS1031 wrote:
Alpharius wrote:People seem to be getting a little hot in here.

Please remember the rules of this forum, and try to not make it personal in here, OK?

Did you honestly expect anything less? Not trying to sound like a jerk, but these threads are always the same drivel.

If you're not interested in the issue, don't bother reading the thread.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Howlingmoon wrote:
NELS1031 wrote:
Alpharius wrote:People seem to be getting a little hot in here.

Please remember the rules of this forum, and try to not make it personal in here, OK?

Did you honestly expect anything less? Not trying to sound like a jerk, but these threads are always the same drivel.

oh look, Kinghammer is back!

How cute.

While I tend to agree with your sentiments (see my post above) I could have wished you had posted more constructive a response to the other user.

**Delephont**

If you become "addicted" to something, in this case, GWs products, its gives them a measure of control, not only of your hobby, but your life.....this is a serious thing to consider.

Its the reason why we see these threads, again and again....and will continue to see them a long time from now.

So as I, and others have said, I still believe that the real issue is and will always be the "fans"......you have expectations, they are not met, but you refuse to do anything about it.....you refuse to change your lifestyle to better suit your needs, and you shake a stick at GW, as if they should care?!?!

Another thing to consider, are you're expectations of GW even realistic? I mean, sure we all have likes and dislikes, but you have to consider the situation from their side, on the one hand they may or may not see all the forum abuse they recieve from threads like this, but wow, the profit margins are still creeping up! People are screaming about the price hikes, but each price hike still yields sales.....if GW were your best friend, you might have a chance of GW giving a god damn, but from a business point of view, you don't stand a chance.....

So, why try to change GW, its like moving a mountain, and quite simply, you won't succeed. What you can do is change yourself....change your lifestlye, and re-assess your hobby needs....its not easy, its not quick, but what else can you do?....yes, you can carry on complaining....of course.

**Ouze**

It's awesome how this thread went off the rails just as quickly and spectacularly as the last one. My advice the OP, having been in your shoes 3 weeks ago, these are your choices:

1.) Ignore how much GWS corporate sucks and play the game, avoiding conversations like this one in the future, and doing your best to get things second hand off ebay;
2.) Vote with your dollars and start playing a different game.

I went for the latter and my Warmachine MK 2 book will be here on Monday. If you're like me, you have a mountain of unpainted or only-basecoated GWS stuff in your basement anyway, and would rather give your dollars to a company that appreciates them.

**Samus666**

Howlingmoon wrote:
that's the culture of GW.

Models > Rules.

No new model? No new rules. period.

I'm painfully aware of this, but that wasn't always their policy, and I see no rational reason why it's become so. Surely they'd make a profit off making additional rules for the existing miniatures (like army variants). It'd rejuvenate interest in old models, and expand the customer base for those models long term. A Chaos variant list may attract players who don't normally collect Chaos, for example.

So, I see they have these policies, but they seem utterly counter-productive to me. And thus GW policy as a whole seems inconsistent. When it comes to business practices like setting prices and protecting IP they're a deadlty serious corporation. But when it comes to doing things for their customers (particularly rules support) they're determined to only do the bare minimum, even if it means less profit. It's almost as if they have a bias against serious gamers who want extra army lists and FAQ's and suchlike (I doubt this is true, as it would be staggeringly unprofessional, but that's the impression they give). The legal and corporate divisions of GW, though they may annoy us with their policies, are at least doing their jobs and so can be understood. Whatever their motivation, the GW rules development team seems to be the only part of the company that is not acting professionally.

**General Mayhem**

Delephont wrote:When you think about it, table top wargamers are (generally speaking) very skilled people...at least those that take it seriously. In my opinion, tabel top wargamers need to take back their hobby! What I mean by this is, use the GW WH40K rule set as a basis....nothing more, use their I.P as a spring board, and then basically go out and sculpt, build and devise your own game system, that suits you and your group.

Absolutely spot on! A great idea that deserves some serious consideration. How cool would it be if the models were designed to provide gamers with upgrades as interchangeable options that could be push fitted as required?

**ProtoClone**

Howard A Treesong wrote:GW aren't interested in our opinions because we are not their core market, their core market are the teenagers and younger players who are easily manipulated, people who read White Dwarf and when they see the latest miniature and are told that it's "really awesome" they feel compelled to buy it. They don't complain about codex creep, they simply buy into the newest, coolest and most powerful army.

They aren't interested in us because we do not represent their customer base. If people buy shares to become investors they are still not interested because you don't hold sufficent stock and in either case the majority shareholder is running the company the way they want to. They don't have to listen to your opinion so they don't. The company could probably be improved but obviously they don't see the effort involved in making it a true hobby company worth the increased profit.

The GW of old is dead, they are only interested in money as the bottom line. They are not a hobby company that is run "by hobbyists for hobbyists" like the many smaller friendlier companies out there, those days are long gone. White Dwarf isn't a hobby/gaming magazine, it hardly ever features the new and experimental rules as it used to in Chapter Approved, that kind of creative content has been removed because its cheaper, easier and allows more space for advertising which is all the magazine is. Things like Black Gobbo were shut down because they were a waste of staff time using their imaginations instead of advertising and selling stuff. They axed their own internet forums because they decided they were more effort than they were worth. There's this idea that if you encourage the hobby-ness of the hobby, encouraging the making of terrain and conversions and the like that it will increase sales. Maybe it will, but you won't convince the GW bosses of that, they see the optimal way to increase profit is by pursuing the pressure selling and advertising and codex creep of their products, not investing in the well being of the imaginative side of the hobby. And again, it must work to a degree because the company makes money and as has been made clear they don't want to listen to your opinion.

MeanGreenStompa has everything pegged with their prices. You can't fault them on the quality of their miniatures, or on their hobby supplies, but everything else is wrong with them, their cynical rules construction to sell their latest products as the best, the fiddle done with the tin price rise and plastics being adjusted to match. And you could even look at the manner their aggressive legal department has been let off the leash to target seemingly anyone they like without any consideration to their fanbase.

There's little point in a boycott, we can't summon the numbers to make a difference. The company aren't interested in our opinions, all you can do is choose to buy their product, or not. Maybe their business model will eventually unwravel when their younger core market simply can't meet the price increases and that's when they will see sense, only when they fall flat on their face. And by the time that happens the company will be in such a bad way it will likely be bought up by someone like Hasbro, who in honesty haven't done such a bad job with things like D&D.

This sums up my opinion in a nut shell.

Though to add on to this I want to put down the release of Andy Chambers from the company. To me that marked the end of a GW and the beginning of a company. When they let him go I just didn't care about who was working on what and what they had to say. No one stepped up, or could step up, to offer to the people an image they felt like they could address their questions.

So for me "What's wrong with GW"? Their apathy towards veteran players. After Andy, I felt as if they shut the door in our face and just started to throw everything over the wall to us. Leaving us wondering why and only to deal with what we just got.

**Lanrak**

HI all.
The problem with Games Workshop (PLC) is that it is a minatures company , pretending to be a hobby-games company to aid minature sales.

Simply calling the company 'Citadel Minatures', would be the single most 'honest ' change to alert customers to the companies main focus.

The requirments of games and gamers are taken as top priority by games companies, like GZG, THW, TTG, PP, TG, etc.

Games Workshop is NOT a games company, (its priority is minature sales not gameplay,)this is why the customers who expect more emphasis on gameplay are so dissapointed .

The fact that the corperate management act with a huge amount of arrogance and ignorance towards it customers from time to time is just fuel on the flames of this basic discontentment.

TTFN
Lanrak.

**Kanluwen**

Didn't Chambers leave on his own to go work for Mongoose on SST?(Great career move, brah).

**ProtoClone**

Kanluwen wrote:Didn't Chambers leave on his own to go work for Mongoose on SST?(Great career move, brah).

Doesn't matter either way, it was not a wise move to let him go..good move on his for the most part but bad on GW. Having someone who the majority of the community respected and one everyone knew have nothing but love for what he did really just showed how different thing were going to be from now on when he left. Be it of his own accord or their forcing him out, it was a bad move.

Since then when I have bothered to pay attention to news about the Dev. team it just doesn't seem like any one of them have what he had when it came to how this company worked and how to treat its fanbase.

**Kanluwen**

From what I recall, he left of his own accord stating that he didn't like the other development team member's styles and wanted more control.

Not really much GW can do when it comes to keeping one guy(no matter how well-respected, well-liked, etc) on or having to rebuild an entire team.

**Howard A Treesong**

Kanluwen wrote:From what I recall, he left of his own accord stating that he didn't like the other development team member's styles and wanted more control.

Not really much GW can do when it comes to keeping one guy(no matter how well-respected, well-liked, etc) on or having to rebuild an entire team.

Sounds like he saw that the writing was on the wall for the way the company was going, his leaving was symptomatic of what they have become, not a cause.

**Kingsley**

I think very little is wrong with GW at present, now that the "dark ages" of 4th edition 40k have come and gone.

**Jag_Calle**

IMHO, I have 2 main beefs with GW.

A) How they treat LFGSs (ie, ALOT more expensive for 'em to buy the products, than the GW stores... Though, this comes because the internet stores sold stuff cheaper than gw, and that wasn't good..)

B) As stated by others, it's a mini-company first and foremost. The development team has realy gone downhill.. Codex creep and all that. If it takes 'em such a long time to get a 'dex/rulebook and such done, and for that price, you should be getting either or both of: 1 well written, balanced codexes and well formulated rules. 2. a good amount of FAQs when they do mess up. Heck, an ongoing "official" FAQ, for rules/codexes and the lot, updated every 2 months or so, based on what questions they get...

a subcategory of my whine on this, is twofold as well. a) The rulebook... a good index would have helped out alot. b) the piss-poor editing. with stuff in the codex not being on the page it's written to be.. for example, the ork dex, reading the "crack" unit entry, it has the units page number listed. on some of 'em, it's wrong... this is such a basic miss that a 5th grader could do better... (/end soap)

//Calle

PS. that reminds me.. this might be a local thing, but I REALLY dislike the local GW we have around here. Some of those who work there are decent, but many are halfwits. I've worked in small stores alot, and whilst you can't remember every customer, you usually have a clue if you've seen 'em before or not... ie, I'm blatantly annoyed, when I enter the store 3rd day in a row (I was buying stuff for a conversion, and it kinda escalated.. ) and every damn time, this employee walked up to me, asked me if I was new and basicly tried to make me buy space marines... I mean, GEESH! first day, fine, 2nd and 3rd?!?

No, I don't like their attitude at all...I'd avoid the place if the LFGSs wasn't in the process of fading out from selling GW stuff due to the piss-poor service and support they get from GW...

**Hawkins**

BrookM wrote:Rules, their shifting business model, feedback to the fanbase and the fanbase itself from time to time.

I'll agree to this and list it as my main beefs as well.

**Henners91**

Games Workshop should be nationalised by the British government and forced to sell at a break-even profit level.

**alarmingrick**

Chimera_Calvin wrote:OK, so after a christmas break I looked at the last discussion thread I posted on (the 'Great Fan Pushback' of 2010) and saw how the thread gradually devolved without acheiving much. Mostly because when people complained it was all very vague.

So what is wrong with GW?

No one has a serious problem with their models or terrain kits. Hobby supplies are often cited as something that could be better, but to be fair very little could be described as poor quality (and tools and paints are hardly dificult to obtain from other firms). How much stuff costs is a source of complaints but is something that no-one would ever seriously expect the community to change - unless the 14-year-olds (or, more to the point, their parents) stage a huge boycott.

That leaves the following:

Quality of rules writing - clarity and consistency, lack of good FAQ's.
Lack of support for some armies/races, codex-creep massively overpowering others.
Removal of options for armies in favour of a 'one-size-fits-all' approach.
Lack of support (now virtually complete abandonment) for specialist games.

The question then becomes: what (if anything) can be done about it? Much of the discussion has revolved around ways of getting to the board or other senior management, but are we setting our sights a little too high? As all of the complaints centre on one department, could the change we want to see be effected by being more focussed?

I would suggest refining the complaints to a more specific set, with sensible (and preferably low-cost) solutions. Getting as many people as possible to sign up to a petition agreeing to such changes and requesting a meeting with a senior member of the design studio. Put forward the case and try and get an ally at that level - someone who can effect day-to-day change and who can ensure their superiors that its not internet ranting, but sensible people making a sincere case for positive change, with a concomitant upturn in business.

I don't know what people would think of such an approach, but I would me more than happy to 'take point' on any such initiative. Your thoughts welcome as always..

i think their biggest problem is they love the Smell of their own $h!t. they think that because the put their name on it people will not only buy it, but crave it(tools, paint etc...). that mindset has led to them saying we don't need to write good rules (or follow them up with sensible FAQ). it's an issue of them believing their own propaganda. until they either experience something that shakes them to the core(mass customer defection) or gets management that actually gives a Rat's a$$ about the consumer, nothing will change.

okay, you can have the soapbox back...

**wardancer**

Henners91 wrote:Games Workshop should be nationalised by the British government and forced to sell at a break-even profit level.

best idea so far

**Kanluwen**

wardancer wrote:
Henners91 wrote:Games Workshop should be nationalised by the British government and forced to sell at a break-even profit level.
best idea so far

No, it's really not.

Unless every other miniature or ANY form of hobby company are forced to sell at the same profit level--you'd just end up with GW going under.

Try again.

**Fateweaver**

Hmm, it worked for socialism......oh wait, socialism doesn't work and that's what that would be. Capitalism makes the world go around.

As long as ANY and EVERY business on Earth had to sell at a break-even point it'd lead to GW suing the British government (and rightly so).

**Vulcan**

Kanluwen wrote:
wardancer wrote:
Henners91 wrote:Games Workshop should be nationalised by the British government and forced to sell at a break-even profit level.
best idea so far

No, it's really not.

Unless every other miniature or ANY form of hobby company are forced to sell at the same profit level--you'd just end up with GW going under.

Try again.

Did you misplace your sense of humor?