Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

sourclams wrote:

This is exactly what Therion is talking about. Of course these units are not identical. Unit A is being compared to two of Unit B, who is also getting the benefit of 150% resource allocation, and cheating on the point cost. Let's actually *try* to compare apples and apples here.

2 LF squads with 5 bodies and 4 MLs - 230 points
2 Dev squads with 5 bodies and 4 MLs - 300 points

What is better, Nurglitch? 8 Missile Launchers on 5 MEQs for 230 points, or 8 Missile Launchers on 5 MEQs for 300 points? If you try fitting 3 of each into their respective lists the LF pull ahead by 105 points- that's a free Typhoon Speeder for even MORE heavy weapon saturation.

And if you really say you're going to cram in shield marines onto the Devs to make use of combat squadding and ablative wounds, you spend another 80 points per selection. Truly horrible return compared to the Long Fangs.

I agree with your overall reasoning here, but you have left out one important point. Two of those SM Rocket Launchers are Ballistic Skill 5 thanks to the Dev Sarge's Signum.

I use a ten-man Devestator Squad with Lascannon, Missle Launcher x 3 in my half-company lists. Hitting on 2 with the Lascannon makes my day a lot better most of the time. The single shot nature of the weapon makes the extra insurance even more valuable.

Are 2 shots at BS5 over BS4 worth 70 points?

Volkov wrote:I don't really feel like rallying to the defense of space marines but here goes...by min maxing squad sizes like the wolf lists posted here, SM would be able to get 6 more heavy weapons, whereas the SW have close to 500 points of troops scratching their ass. That kind of seems to take away from the argument of devastators being more expensive. I don't have a SM codex with me at the moment but I am sure I could fashion a list with just as many if not more heavy weapons as the SW. Panzer leaders list wasn't made to maximize heavy weapons it just leans in that direction

Thank you. My army is designed to be a competitve shooting army, but I did not attempt to maximize heavy weapons in it. For example, I include the 4th tactical squad because I prefer to have 8 scoring units in objective missions. this allows me to leave 4 heavy weapons in my backfield strictly to shoot/hold near objectives while giving me 4 Razorbacks and 20 Marines to maneuver with. While the SW list has 30 infantry models in it, he can only commit 15-20 to the same fight as my 20 marines with power weapon/fists sergeants while leaving the rest back to hold home objectives. While his basic guys fight better than mine in assault, Sarge should give me a little edge. I think the current SW list, while shooty, is less competitive than a more balanced build.

sourclams wrote:This is exactly what Therion is talking about. Of course these units are not identical. Unit A is being compared to two of Unit B, who is also getting the benefit of 150% resource allocation, and cheating on the point cost. Let's actually *try* to compare apples and apples here.

2 LF squads with 5 bodies and 4 MLs - 230 points
2 Dev squads with 5 bodies and 4 MLs - 300 points

A perhaps more pertinent point is that neither of these selections are any good at all.

Volkov wrote:I don't really feel like rallying to the defense of space marines but here goes...by min maxing squad sizes like the wolf lists posted here, SM would be able to get 6 more heavy weapons, whereas the SW have close to 500 points of troops scratching their ass.

One codex has cost-effective troops, the other really doesn't. Scoring units are a fact of life; the SW codex can give you scoring units with duality in the form of SW squads with flamers in Razorbacks with las/plas for anti tank, anti MC, and anti horde. Trying to duplicate the SW list with SM would force you to downgrade to a unit with no CCW+BP and no special weapon. In short, it's got no duality.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

PanzerLeader wrote: I think the current SW list, while shooty, is less competitive than a more balanced build.

Eh, out-shoots just about everything else on the table. It's a truly focused gunline whereas yours is a mixed bag. The focus of the thread, however, is "Space Wolves shooting versus Space Marines shooting", and in a shoot-out, the Wolves can beat down Marines pretty easily.

A perhaps more pertinent point is that neither of these selections are any good at all.

Possibly. The ability to run reduced Long Fang squads easily is a big swing in their favor. The cheapest that Devs will ever get is 150 points. If you want, you can run a LF squad at 65 with 3 models and 2 MLs. This would work well in a Thundercav list, for example, where minimal heavy support popping light transports works very well with the super assault units.

Hey guys, I just want to throw some Maths out there for consideration when you talk about that Signum. I've compared a basic Lascannon, a BS 5 Lascannon under a Signum, and a Tank Hunting Lascannon to illustrate one of the other shooting tricks regular Space Marines can perform. I've compared them against AV14, and Toughness 6 (as in a TMC).

vs AV14

Lascannon
1 x
Hit on 3+ 66%
Result on 5+ 33%

22%


BS 5 Lascannon
1 x
Hit on 2+ 83.5%
Result on 5+ 33%

27.555%



TH Lascannon
1x
Hit on 3+ 66%
Result on 4+ 50%


33%



vs T6

Lascannon
1x
Hit on 3+ 66%
Wound on 2+ 83.5%

55.11%


BS 5 Lascannon
1X
Hit on 2+ 83.5%
Wound on 2+ 83.5%

69.7225%

TH Lascannon
Same as regular

55.11%

Now, I just did the basic math to get a result on AV14, and a wound on a T6. Factoring in cover, LOS, and Invulerable saves will be up to you to plug in for your various situation.

I'm not saying that Devs are better, but different. I think Long Fangs represent efficient _quantity_ of heavy weapons, but Devestators (and Sicarious when he grants Tank Hunters) can improve the _quality_ of heavy weapons output.

Sicarius can't give Devs Tank Hunters. Only Tacticals. But yeah... the Signum is nice, but not worth 70 points IMO.

I didn't say he could. As I stated, I was pointing out another trick the Space Marines can use for shooting superiority. This thread is about SM vs SW shooting overall, Devs vs LF is just the latest spiral of the discussion. I threw that out there to a) try to break the tunnel vision in here, and b) to illustrate that there is more than one way to skin a cat with the Space Marines.

If I thought that Sicarious could give Dev's Tank Hunters, I would have done math for a Tank Hunting BS 5 Lascannon. Which I clearly did not.


Also, the 70 points from the previous scenario was for 2 signums. That makes them 35 points each.

Sorry. I misinterpreted what you said. I've just seen people make that mistake in the past with Sicarius's rules.

Having said that, the improvements you showed aren't worth 35 points to me. That's more than enough points for another ML LF.

Quanity has a quality all its own... which SW has over SMs.

Lascannons cost 20 points additional, so that would actually widen the gap between the units to 55 points.

As to the actual value of the Signum, we can break that down in cost in points per hit with heavy weapon.

4 missiles at BS4 will hit 2.66667 times. 3 missiles at BS4 plus 1 missile at BS5 will hit 2.833333 times.

Long Fangs @115 pts /2.66667 = 43.12 points/hit
Dev squad @150 pts /2.83333 = 52.94 points/hit

The signum Dev squad still isn't as points-efficient as the Long Fangs.

Wow. You guys are really serious about putting down non SW aren't you?

I said, without your snide remark, that SW have better _quantity_, whereas SM have improvements to _quality_. Where in that did I make any statement of valuation?

Nowhere.

I just stated the facts. I think you read too quickly, and make snap judgements without thinking. This could also be why you are so hung up on quantity, and refuse to see the comparative yet different value of quality and resilience.

I do believe I'll be exiting this thread now. You guys aren't interested in learning anything, you just want to bash on anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Quantity and quality can be quantitatively compared by looking at the points efficiency of the selections, as I've already laid out.

Your heuristic argument doesn't stand up to actual analysis.

Since the entire original purpose was to vaunt SM shooting over SW (a dubious claim that I think has been refuted a couple times now), the onus of proof is actually more on your camp's shoulders than mine.

@General Retreat:

I'm sorry if my remark came out snide, as that was not my intent. It's just that in 5th Edition, I think more shots are more effective than better shots. Ask any IG player about that. Yes, Devastators are slightly more survivable and can do some cool stuff with Combat Squads and whatnot. However, they don't do it well enough to justify their increased cost, especially when you factor in things such as CA, AS, and ubergrit.

Sourclams has shown some pretty solid math as to why at least LFs seem to be more efficent (aka effective) than Devs.

Personally, I think the Stelek list could be tweaked to be much closer to Panzer's list (which I do love as an SM player) which I think would be a better example than how it stands now.

*shrug* If you want to max heavy weapons in an SM list, you could do something like this:

HQ: Space Marine Librarian (1#, 100 pts)
1 Space Marine Librarian @ 100 pts (...in Power Armour; Null Zone; The Avenger)
1 ...in Power Armour (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Psychic Hood; Bolt Pistol; Force Weapon)

Troops: Tactical Squad (6#, 165 pts)
4 Tactical Squad @ 165 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x4; Bolter x4; Razorback)
1 Sergeant (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol; Bolter)
1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Troops: Tactical Squad (6#, 165 pts)
4 Tactical Squad @ 165 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x4; Bolter x4; Razorback)
1 Sergeant (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol; Bolter)
1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Troops: Tactical Squad (6#, 165 pts)
4 Tactical Squad @ 165 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x4; Bolter x4; Razorback)
1 Sergeant (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol; Bolter)
1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 120 pts)
1 Predator @ 120 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Autocannon; Lascannon (each side))

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 120 pts)
1 Predator @ 120 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Autocannon; Lascannon (each side))

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 120 pts)
1 Predator @ 120 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Autocannon; Lascannon (each side))

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 125 pts)
1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 125 pts)
1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 125 pts)
1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)

Fast Attack: Attack Bike Squad (3#, 150 pts)
3 Attack Bike Squad @ 150 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol x3; Multi-Melta x3)

Fast Attack: Attack Bike Squad (3#, 150 pts)
3 Attack Bike Squad @ 150 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol x3; Multi-Melta x3)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (3#, 270 pts)
3 Land Speeder Squadron @ 270 pts (Heavy Bolter x3; Typhoon Missile Launcher x3)

That gives you the following:

Lascannons: 9
Twin-Linked Autocannons: 6
Autocannons: 3
Multi-Meltas: 6
Typhoon Launchers: 3
Heavy Bolters: 3
Twin-Linked Plasma Guns: 3

Gives you 33 Special/Heavy weapons with 100 points to go on the list. I just do not think it is resilient enough to be competive, same as the SW army. While both are focused gun lines, all of the heavy weapons can be taken out of play each turn by something as simple as a "Crew Shaken" result (minus the attack bikes in the SM list). That really is a huge disadvantage for a vehicle based army that foot based heavy weapons help offset to some degree. You also have no real depth at infantry, which is what you need to win. I personally consider about 40 scoring MEQs to be the minimum at 2000 points for a competitive build, but to each their own.

I tried to recreate Panzer's original list in the SW Codex. I had to do a few substitutions:

Speeders for Bikes
Longfangs for TFC (couldn't get closer)
5 man GH for Combat Squads (3 with Plasma, 3 with Flamer)
5 man Wolf Guard with PW/MB x3 and PFx2 for Sargs
Rune Priest for Libby (did not give second power)

Overall I think it translated well, with the exception of the TFC. You get transports for all the scoring bodies and make up for the loss of the Lascannons with the extra armaments on them. You have 36 scoring bodies with 2 extra Sargs.

2000 Pts - Space Wolves Roster

HQ: Rune Priest (1#, 110 pts)
1 Rune Priest @ 110 pts (...in Power Armour)
1 Rune Priest in Power Armour (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Chooser of the Slain; Bolt Pistol x1; Runic Weapon x1; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack; Independent Character; Psyker; Jaws of the World Wolf; Living Lightning)

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (6#, 150 pts)
5 Grey Hunters Pack @ 150 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x5; Bolter x4; Close Combat Weapon x5; Flamer; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack; Razorback)
1 Razorback (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (6#, 150 pts)
5 Grey Hunters Pack @ 150 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x5; Bolter x4; Close Combat Weapon x5; Flamer; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack; Razorback)
1 Razorback (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (6#, 150 pts)
5 Grey Hunters Pack @ 150 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x5; Bolter x4; Close Combat Weapon x5; Flamer; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack; Razorback)
1 Razorback (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (6#, 160 pts)
5 Grey Hunters Pack @ 160 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x5; Bolter x4; Close Combat Weapon x5; Plasmagun; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack; Razorback)
1 Razorback (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (6#, 160 pts)
5 Grey Hunters Pack @ 160 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x5; Bolter x4; Close Combat Weapon x5; Plasmagun; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack; Razorback)
1 Razorback (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (6#, 160 pts)
5 Grey Hunters Pack @ 160 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x5; Bolter x4; Close Combat Weapon x5; Plasmagun; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack; Razorback)
1 Razorback (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (3#, 180 pts)
3 Land Speeder Squadron @ 180 pts (Multi-Melta x3)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (3#, 150 pts)
3 Land Speeder Squadron @ 150 pts (Heavy Bolter x3)

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 120 pts)
1 Predator @ 120 pts (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Autocannon; Lascannon (each side))

Heavy Support: Vindicator (1#, 130 pts)
1 Vindicator @ 130 pts (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Extra Armor; Demolisher Cannon; Storm Bolter)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (1#, 90 pts)
1 Land Speeder Squadron @ 90 pts (Heavy Bolter x1; Typhoon Missile Launcher)

Elite: Wolf Guard Pack (5#, 175 pts)
1 Wolf Guard Pack @ 175 pts (Wolf Guard in Power Armour; Wolf Guard in Power Armour; Wolf Guard in Power Armour; Wolf Guard in Power Armour; Wolf Guard in Power Armour)
1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon x1; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack)
1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon x1; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack)
1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon x1; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack)
1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolter x1; Power Fist x1; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack)
1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolter x1; Power Fist x1; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack)

Heavy Support: Long Fangs Pack (5#, 115 pts)
4 Long Fangs Pack @ 115 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Close Combat Weapon x4; Missile Launcher x4; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack; Fire Control)
1 Squad Leader (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack; Fire Control)

Gornall wrote:I tried to recreate Panzer's original list in the SW Codex. I had to do a few substitutions:

Speeders for Bikes
Longfangs for TFC (couldn't get closer)
5 man GH for Combat Squads (3 with Plasma, 3 with Flamer)
5 man Wolf Guard with PW/MB x3 and PFx2 for Sargs
Rune Priest for Libby (did not give second power)

Overall I think it translated well, with the exception of the TFC. You get transports for all the scoring bodies and make up for the loss of the Lascannons with the extra armaments on them. You have 36 scoring bodies with 2 extra Sargs.

Ugh. Thats a nasty SW army. I really think the extra 16 infantry plus the squad power weapons/fists make a huge difference. The LFs are a decent substiution for the Thunderfire cannon too. I think the SW army does anti-vehicle better with the extra lascannons and missile launchers, but I think my SM army has a slight edge in anti-infantry with the extra twin-linked bolters on the attack bikes, their ability to assault, and the the Thunderfire cannon. Nothing can really replace the ability to remove cover saves at ranges beyond 8".

I would agree with that assessment. The TFC does bring some magic that cannot quite be duplicated, including the 3+ ruin save and ability to force lots and lots of MEQ saves. I would argue that the SW list has slightly more mobility and better short-range and CC abilities, simply because they can RF and then take advantage of ubergrit and CA. The vanilla list has a some more flexibility with deployment and combat squads/tactics.

TBH, that exercise showed me that it is not quite as cut and dry as I expected. Losing Attack Bikes is a bigger problem than I thought as Landspeeders are more expensive. However, I do think it demonstrates that shooty SW isn't too far fetched, and actually does some things better than vanilla SM.

Well as a guard player both those lists would give my typical guard list a nice battle. Landspeeders don't worry me as much as bikes because my chimeras can drop speeders no problem, and as I said earlier my fire wont be spent on grey hunters because they pose no threat to me at range. But overall both are effective lists