Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

iz a kitty wrote:

Broken Loose wrote:As a result, Hive Guards are sold out nationwide and are not be expected to be replenished until late March.

Huh, at my Local Gaming Store, they have about 20 of the blisters waiting to be bought, and there are like another 10 at a different LGS I go to. Maybe they're only sold out at GW?

~ [<3]

Yeah, my stores are only sold out in HG, TG and battleforces. My mates just boughT 4 hive guard from his LGS.

Who knows could be problems shipping as well with the werdo weather everyone has been having. And as the pyrovore, it has potential if used right, personally, the way I built my Hive Fleet and play them, it is not going to make it in. But are there not many units that person A dismisses, and person B finds a niche for because of a diference in play style.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean there are many units

Some units are just bad..

Take vespids, you could use the argument of Player B having a difference in play style when he uses them

However, that difference in playstyle is called "bad list building"

A semi decent player should know how to combat drop pod flamers.. which is to block all access to your weaker units with ones that arent bothered by flamers which makes the flamers useless

imweasel wrote:Most folks I know are proxying biovores and tyrant guard as hive guard for now.

Using them for Biovores was my first, and frankly obvious thought, but I hadn't considered them for Guard... Hmmmm....

Kirasu wrote:Some units are just bad..

Take vespids, you could use the argument of Player B having a difference in play style when he uses them

However, that difference in playstyle is called "bad list building"

A semi decent player should know how to combat drop pod flamers.. which is to block all access to your weaker units with ones that arent bothered by flamers which makes the flamers useless

So now your opponent has to spend points on a shield unit that has to move with or sit with the vulnerable units (since unlike SM drop pods, you don't know when the spores will come in). Which makes a nice grouping for the mawloc to come up under. There aren't many units that can withstand AP 2 hits. And if the Mawloc pushes the units apart, it can set up the pyrovores.

Pyrovores are not comparable to vespids, because Pyrovores can accomplish something. Vespids *could* serve the same role, except half their shots will miss and don't ignore cover... and in the follow up assault you have no power weapons (or just return fire on their 5+ save)

If you don't like Pyrovores, thats fine. But they're not a worthless unit. They may be worthless for the tournaments, but I would say the vast majority of 40k players don't give a rats ass about the tournament scene, or at least not beyond the FLGS tourneys where you're not going to typically find people who shelled out money for two land raiders and six razorbacks, etc.

Random comment... My FLGS has sold out of Pyrovores twice, but still has Hive Guard on the rack. No, I don't get it either.

Simple:

Pyrovores are awesome models. I almost bought two the other day just to paint up after seeing the one the FLGS owner was working on.

Stuck to my guns though and just bought the Tyranid codex, a pair of bottles of CA superglue, and two cans of War Painter British Armour.

Kirasu wrote:

A semi decent player should know how to combat drop pod flamers.. which is to block all access to your weaker units with ones that arent bothered by flamers which makes the flamers useless

That really is not a viable option.

1) Some armies (eldar + orksies + guard + tau) simply don't have unlimited access to units that can shrug off heavy flamers

2) Even you do have those units, pay for them and deploy them protectively, you are playing right into thier hands. You have just built up almost your entire list becuase you gakking youself at the thought of 150pts worth deepstriking in somewhere.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kirasu wrote:

A semi decent player should know how to combat drop pod flamers.. which is to block all access to your weaker units with ones that arent bothered by flamers which makes the flamers useless

That really is not a viable option.

1) Some armies (eldar + orksies + guard + tau) simply don't have unlimited access to units that can shrug off heavy flamers

2) Even you do have those units, pay for them and deploy them protectively, you are playing right into thier hands. You have just built up almost your entire list becuase you gakking youself at the thought of 150pts worth deepstriking in somewhere.

You mean like Wave serpents? battle wagons? even devil fish can take heavy flamers fine.. guard tanks?

As to point 2, ive crushed many drop pod armies in large tournaments by castling.. that and/or reserve tricks is how you beat them easily.. Using your units to COUNTER your enemies is not a waste of points, its how the game is played

Mawlocs kind of change the concept of castling, since they can come up in the middle of your formation...

Also, the same way your forces don't exist in a vacume, neither do the tyranids. Zaoeys come down in one pod, pyrovores in another. One wrecks the transports, the other wrecks the troops. At the very least, worst comes to worst, pyrovores have a chance to penetrate AV 10 and glance AV 11.

Just seems like there are better options to achieve the same goal other than pyrovores.. especially in KP games you just spent 2 kps (spore pod + pyrovores) to maybe kill a unit

Atleast they are good models unlike vespids

With the above example you're prob better off just using MORE zoeys because since most armies use transports.. and most armies are 3+ save you'll most likely have 3+ save models exiting transports which is great for the Ap3 blast zoeys have

*sigh* the codex isn't at fault once again... >.>

The layout, may not be "optimal" but honestly that's really the only thing I can see "wrong" with it if you want to view it like that. Personally, I think it's fine and waiting to see how I want to build my list before I make any major purchases.

A side note, look at any major NEW item sold, when are they not sold out in the first few weeks? I mean come on, supply & demand anyone? Did we not take economics in school? I'm pretty sure if you pre-ordered you would've got them in the mail as soon as they were available. *shrug*

Peace~

Kirasu wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kirasu wrote:

A semi decent player should know how to combat drop pod flamers.. which is to block all access to your weaker units with ones that arent bothered by flamers which makes the flamers useless

That really is not a viable option.

1) Some armies (eldar + orksies + guard + tau) simply don't have unlimited access to units that can shrug off heavy flamers

2) Even you do have those units, pay for them and deploy them protectively, you are playing right into thier hands. You have just built up almost your entire list becuase you gakking youself at the thought of 150pts worth deepstriking in somewhere.

You mean like Wave serpents? battle wagons? even devil fish can take heavy flamers fine.. guard tanks?

As to point 2, ive crushed many drop pod armies in large tournaments by castling.. that and/or reserve tricks is how you beat them easily.. Using your units to COUNTER your enemies is not a waste of points, its how the game is played

You are absolutely right mate. EXCEPT the thing is, you're not building your army to counter his, you're building you're ENTIRE list to counter a FRACTION of his. Going Mech will get rid of any worries concerning Pyrovores, but then you can spen whatever you want getting stuff to take out vehichles. You're dancing around a tiny portion of hid guys, making them a very effective method of mental warfare.

@OP
They wrote the codex perfect, I love the changes. They will change the game!

I guess you only read the second half. You know the part with just numbers and pictures.

First part was amazing, did you know Marneous Calgar got his butt kicked by a huge HT with quad swords and that a marine saved his arse! Thats a game changer new Special characters!

HGuard's ICannon str 8 assault 2 6 to glance a LR.. on a side note.. if they dont need to see the target why do they need a BS? I just dont get it.

I think, Arby failed at many points with this new codex:
1. Why for heaven's sake does only one (1!) unit have fleshhooks?! Wouldn't it have made sense to give these to an army almost always assaulting?!
2. Where did the biomorphs go that allowed us to customize our units? To me at least that was a big trademark for the Nids.
3. Nids now have a horrible abundance of infantry- killers. Okay, but why are there about three weapons in the entire codex to deal with tanks?

Just off the top of my head. But somehow it feels like "OOH! Let's put many really cool and stylish new things into the Dex!!!" without giving too much thought on improvements.

Hey, as horde Orks I don't use vehicles at all excepting walkers and instead of only 2 units with really good anti-tank weaponry I have 2 units with mediocre anti-tank, one of which puts its head up its bum on the battlefield. So don't whine to me about lack of ranged anti-tank.

Culler wrote:Hey, as horde Orks I don't use vehicles at all excepting walkers and instead of only 2 units with really good anti-tank weaponry I have 2 units with mediocre anti-tank, one of which puts its head up its bum on the battlefield. So don't whine to me about lack of ranged anti-tank.

QFT

Fateweaver wrote:That observation makes no sense. Trygons are a "must have" unit and they aren't sold out.

That's because Trygon is plastic, Hive Guards are metal and take longer to make.

(edit: Wow, 3 pages already? This thread grew fast...)

Edit2: Btw, sold out models does NOT mean that a codex is automatically unbalanced, that just means people run out and buy new models.

I dont like the new nid codex.

Broodlords are not HQ
No frag nades on genestealers
Lictors pheremone trail has no effect while they are not on the board, makes no sense, they are still there, they're just hiding...

competitive lists will boil down to maxing out on Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, and maybe the deathleaper, utilizing the tervigon with gaunts for objective holding and the only real "option" in the codex is what you want to take to kill infantry...

So we have one template list, a few disconnects between fluff and rules, and a bunch of sad gamers.

Why hive guard? O.o? I wouldn't max those out at all. Maybe a unit to help but zoeys would be far better for tank hunting. The codex was designed (my opinion) to give multiple options and if you can run tactics halfway decent you won't need all the big bugs to actually be effective on the table. The combinations and powers (psychic) that can be given is amazing. The army is more about everything working together not any one unit out by itself. If you nitpick each unit apart yeah they're not as powerful as their original conterpart from last codex however put the units together and use them as one big assault organism and you begin to see how they're wanting the design and flow of the army to go. As the fluff goes one big hive mind, one goal, not many individual pieces but one massive force working together.

Peace~

ps. Writing from an iPod touch is difficult to many auto-correct errors when typing lol.

I hate how they made so many FW wannabe monsters for the book, but didnt simply make them the real monster!

Harpy--Harridan (Harpy fluff states its the size of a trygon, lol, but its stats make it smaller then a winged tyrant)
Tyrannofex--hierodule (many of the stats are the same, the weapon options are similiar with the flamer spray or big cannon, but the tyrannofex sucks)

Also, why is the toughness of the nids capped at 6? A tyranid monstrous creature, supposedly tough like a battle tank, is wounded by a plasma gun on a 3+. Meanwhile, a vehicle is 'wounded' by a plasma gun on a 3+ if it is armor 10! Tyrannofexes should have been t8.

Kanluwen wrote:BY THE POWERS OF THE PLASTIC GODS

TRYGON, I SUMMON THEE IN A BULK BOX OF FIFTY!


^
That's exactly how Games Workshop's "casting" process works, no matter what Bookwrack tells you!

Consider this sigged.

DevianID wrote:I hate how they made so many FW wannabe monsters for the book, but didnt simply make them the real monster!

Harpy--Harridan (Harpy fluff states its the size of a trygon, lol, but its stats make it smaller then a winged tyrant)
Tyrannofex--hierodule (many of the stats are the same, the weapon options are similiar with the flamer spray or big cannon, but the tyrannofex sucks)

Also, why is the toughness of the nids capped at 6? A tyranid monstrous creature, supposedly tough like a battle tank, is wounded by a plasma gun on a 3+. Meanwhile, a vehicle is 'wounded' by a plasma gun on a 3+ if it is armor 10! Tyrannofexes should have been t8.

You might have a point about the Harpy / Harridan, I haven't really looked at the comparison.

But...

Let me get this straight, the Barbed Hierodule is around 570ish something points (if not more, don't have my FW book in front of my atm), while the Tyrannofex is 265 w/ rupture cannon. Half the cost but the same weapon potency, and almost similiar stat line...

I'm sorry, I don't get your logic on this, he's almost identical to the big bad version in the FW book put into the smaller game with near the same potentcy with reduced cost and you're complaining? Sounds to me like you're just miffed because you, like me, bought the apocalypse book and now you feel slighted. And honestly, I mean did you think Nid's would never change ever again?

I mean by this logic, you should be furious with every Codex that's launched after you bought the first one. "oh no a new codex! my old one I spent money on is wasted." ...well, duh!

I don't mean to sound harsh, but all these quibbles over the new codex just sound like whinning now.

Peace~

No, actually I am miffed because the tyrannofex, while seeming to have the same/similiar stats, was ruined by weapon IMpotency.

IE, the tyrannofex, which didnt exist before this book, shares the same role and similiar stats as a monster that did exist, the hierodule. However, instead of making the tyrannofex half the cost of a hierodule with half the potency, they made it 40% the cost and 1/6th the potency as the apoc hierodule. in other words, The rupture cannon should have been s10 ap3 assault 6 for the price you pay on the beast, and the beast should have been s8-9, toughness 7.

I wonder what the points and stats of the original forgeworld hierodule are, as the forgeworld version might be worth taking in regular games.

Well I can tell you right now the weapon stats are the same. The price is higher, significantly, I do have the FW apoc book that lists his entry and the trygon, etc etc. I don't have with me at work at the moment. But when I get home tonight I'll be sure to show you the stat by stat line (the ones that matter) and we can look at the major/minor differences then.

But honestly there is still a role for both, since the FW apoc book versions are deigned to take on and fight with Titans. These newer models I think were desgned to give players who haven't played or lookEd at the apoc game a chance to see similiar models I their every day games.

Anywasys I'll be sure to get back to this thread this evening.

Peace~


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alright, now I have both books in front of me. Let's look at the Tyrannofex and the Barbed Hierodule.

Original Content:
Barbed Hierodule -
Cost: 540 pts
BS3 S8 T8 W5 Sv2+

Weapon: Bio-Cannon 48" Str10 AP3 Assault 1, Large Blast


New Content:
Tyrannofex -
Cost (w/ Rupture Cannon): 265 pts
BS3 S6 T6 W6 Sv2+

Weapon: Rupture Cannon 48" Str10 AP4 Assault 2

So as we look at these two beasts, you'll notice the stats lines did drop a little (at least the one's we're focusing on) at least. But the Cannon has actually increased in amount of volley's and the only change for that is the AP has gone up from 3 to 4. Not to big of a difference see as how it wasn't popping tanking with AP1 in the first place anyways.

I don't see how this new version which is cheaper would be worse in the games it's been designed for. The weapon can't scatter any more, so it's a hit if you roll a hit, that's not bad. Has an additional wound with the same Sv. And 540 / 2 = 270. So its actually 5pts cheaper then half the cost with the same load out.

Comparing these units for Forge World rules is useless as most FW stuff is either overpriced, underpowered, or both.

Aduro wrote:It's almost as if an army can only field three Trygons max, while Hive Guard max out at some higher number. It might even be something like Three Times as many.

Still doesn't prove that HG are the defacto must have for the codex. Obviously the Trygons they made more of so they haven't sold out......yet. They probably didn't see such a huge buy up of HG models. I personally love the Venomthrope model and Pyrovore and they probably produced the same number. It's just that min-max tournament players went for what works the best on paper...HG. I'm hearing 50/50 on DL so obviously not a "must-have"; they've had years worth of models being made for him but he too is sold out for a couple of weeks yet.

So. Something selling out is just coincidence. Take termagants. You'd think with all the ACL tearing knee-jerking going on about "GW MAKING ME BY MORE TERMAGANT BOXES TO REPLACE MY SPINEFISTS BECAUSE I CAN'T MIN/MAX ANYMORE" that Termagant boxes would sell out. I mean surely they can't keep up if rules drive sales as much as people say they do.

Thanks fexor for the comparison. I agree that the forgeworld heirodule's gun is the same basicly as the current tyrannofex. The stat line, however, is much improved. However, for half the cost the tyrannofex is better than the FW hierodule. However, the tyrannofex is still terrible for the point cost in my opinion.

Of course, Fateweaver makes the assumption that people only ever brought Spinegaunts to 'min/max'. Which technically makes his post a personal attack against all Tyranid players who brought Spinegaunts.

DevianID wrote:Thanks fexor for the comparison. I agree that the forgeworld heirodule's gun is the same basicly as the current tyrannofex. The stat line, however, is much improved. However, for half the cost the tyrannofex is better than the FW hierodule. However, the tyrannofex is still terrible for the point cost in my opinion.

Not a problem on the comparison.

Well, I'll agree it may not fit into everyone's build and I'm not against that, I'd prefer players to play the way they wish. Which is why the new codex, as different as it may be to the last edition, provides more options for Tyranid players to play their army they way they want to. If you don't want to take a Tyrannofex, you don't have to there are other heavy choices that can work just as well. And that's the major thing I'm liking about it, is that you aren't pigeon-hold into the same build as everyone else, you have variety and for the most part if you can make the other Heavy units synchronize with the other parts of the army, you're going to be effective with whatever you choose to take.

Just my opinion.

Peace~