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Therein lies the disconnect.

Generally, one is not allowed to place models XXX
DS says place anywhere.

vs.

DS says place anywhere.
Generally, one is not allowed to place models XXX

agnosto wrote:
We'll just have to disagree.

I would just have to say, that your model being on top of my model does not constitute being "placed" upon the table; it is in fact on my model which is not a permanent fixture of the table. So, yes, feel free to place your model anywhere on the table. I will even argue that you be able to place it in base to base with my model; however, you may not place it on top of any of my models.

Agree to disagree is fair enough. In reality, I view the RAW interpretation of either circumstance to be broken, as I would never physically place my model on top of someone else's out of respect. I just wish people could look at these rules arguments objectively, as the game mechanics they specifically are. The point I'm trying to argue is that from a strictly RAW perspective, Deep Strike DOES allow for placement anywhere. Whether or not that's how the game should be played is a separate question altogether.


FWIW, I've never played an opponent who has argued with me using a die to represent the center of my deep-striking model's base.

kirsanth wrote:Generally, one is not allowed to place models XXX
DS says place anywhere.

...without specifically over-riding the prohibition.

So it still applies.

nardman wrote:

agnosto wrote:
We'll just have to disagree.

I would just have to say, that your model being on top of my model does not constitute being "placed" upon the table; it is in fact on my model which is not a permanent fixture of the table. So, yes, feel free to place your model anywhere on the table. I will even argue that you be able to place it in base to base with my model; however, you may not place it on top of any of my models.

Agree to disagree is fair enough. In reality, I view the RAW interpretation of either circumstance to be broken, as I would never physically place my model on top of someone else's out of respect. I just wish people could look at these rules arguments objectively, as the game mechanics they specifically are. The point I'm trying to argue is that from a strictly RAW perspective, Deep Strike DOES allow for placement anywhere. Whether or not that's how the game should be played is a separate question altogether.


FWIW, I've never played an opponent who has argued with me using a die to represent the center of my deep-striking model's base.

And that's where we'll disagree because my point is that on the table is not on my model.

Anywho, I enjoy these discussions; they take me back to the legal classes I took before I decided being a lawyer was not for me. There's nothing wrong with a healthy disagreement if we can do it in a civilized manner (i.e. minus name calling, etc) and I truly feel that the truth is usually somewhere in the middle, inside any controversy.

FWIW, I still think we should be able to shoot it with a thunderfire cannon if it's coming up from under the ground.

nardman wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Was the model not physically moved?

For all purposes of game rules, whether a model is physically moved or not has no bearing upon whether it has "moved." If you want to get into a logical twist of that sort, how far did your models move from your case to your deployment area? The "physical realm" makes no difference, that's not how games operate. The importance is the category of action peformed.

Furthermore, Deep Strike is a Mission Special Rule, not a "movement phase" rule or a "Reserves" rule. The Reserves rules(Arriving from Reserve, and Outflank) utilize normal movement within their rules, and are therefore subject to the movement restrictions. Deep Strike does not, therefore, whether you are physically moving the model or not, you are NOT performing a normal move action.

The Deep Strike rules tell you to refer to the Reserves rule on how to utilize it. The Reserves rule dictates that it takes place at the start of the movement phase. Deep Strike is not only a Mission Special Rule or else Jump Infantry or units with the Deep Strike rule in their entry would not be able to use it whenever they feel like.

As far as "move" versus "move", the rules on page 11 make no distinction between the two. Mawloc deep strikes, fine. You cannot then [i]move[/i] the model onto another or move him within 1" unless assaulting.

And honestly, the argument presented by you is to try to gain an advantage in-game via twisting of the rule set. Deep strike and scatter dice go hand in hand, and yet you are trying to get around the in-game mechanic to which a scatter dice represents by trying to skew the odds closer in your favor of landing directly on or within 1" of an enemy.

I on the other hand am not trying to circumvent the purpose of the scatter dice and its relationship to deep striking. I am clearly allowing the in-game mechanic to which the scatter dice represents to take place without trying to kill the chances of Terror of the Deep nor increase the chance of it triggering.

insaniak wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Generally, one is not allowed to place models XXX
DS says place anywhere.

...without specifically over-riding the prohibition.

So it still applies.

For the love of...

You're arguing a point of view, not a rule. There is nothing to be gained here.

Be a mod and lock this crap.

Brother Ramses wrote:I am of the school of thought that you play the Mawloc as you would any other deep striking unit. He does not have a special rule for deep striking, ONLY if he has a mishap. Once a mishap occurs, such as scattering onto enemy troops, then his special rule goes into affect.

Nothing in the Deep Strike rules allows him to specifically place himself on a unit. He must scatter onto said unit to trigger his special mishap rules.

I am at work right now and my Nid dex is at home, but is there a rule for the Mawloc if he scatters off the board? Does he move the minimum distance to get on the board or does he finally have to roll on the regular mishap table?

Please quote me the line that says I can't place my marker in impassable terrain / on top of enemy models. . .

Also, I would BET this gets FAQ'ed in the Mawloc's favor. Why institute a rule that gets used only by accident? And for the record, I think you not letting it work is twisting what the movement rules says in YOUR favor, not the other way around. And I don't even play nids, so I'm objective =P

Fizyx wrote:You're arguing a point of view, not a rule. There is nothing to be gained here.

When two people disagree on an interpretation of the rules, discussing points of view is generally what it comes down to, yes. What is potentially gained from that is an understanding of the other person's point of view.

Be a mod and lock this crap.

Locking a thread because someone disagrees with me is the exact opposite of appropriate behaviour for a mod.

There are a couple of different arguments running here ... so long as there is still civil (and relatively on-topic) discussion going on, there's no reason to lock it.

apwill4765 wrote:Please quote me the line that says I can't place my marker in impassable terrain / on top of enemy models. . .

Also, I would BET this gets FAQ'ed in the Mawloc's favor. Why institute a rule that gets used only by accident? And for the record, I think you not letting it work is twisting what the movement rules says in YOUR favor, not the other way around. And I don't even play nids, so I'm objective =P

p.14 RB: "Models may not be placed in impassible terrain"

You can't place a model on top of another one for your deep strike position because enemy models are considered impassible terrain (as are friendlies), but there is nothing I can see that stops you from placing it in B2B.

Dracos wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:Please quote me the line that says I can't place my marker in impassable terrain / on top of enemy models. . .

Also, I would BET this gets FAQ'ed in the Mawloc's favor. Why institute a rule that gets used only by accident? And for the record, I think you not letting it work is twisting what the movement rules says in YOUR favor, not the other way around. And I don't even play nids, so I'm objective =P

p.14 RB: "Models may not be placed in impassible terrain"

You can't place a model on top of another one for your deep strike position because enemy models are considered impassible terrain (as are friendlies), but there is nothing I can see that stops you from placing it in B2B.

That would be a quote from the movement rules. From deepstrike rules: "first place one model from the unit ANYWHERE on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive, and roll the scatter dice."

Also, this is NOT a movement, it is a deployment: "roll for arrival of these units as specified in the rules for reserves and then DEPLOY them as follows"

Also, that "on my models is not on the table" stuff is bull-hockey. If that's true, then you can't deepstrike on top of 3 story terrain pieces either.
In those following rules it makes NO mention restricting placement into impassable terrain.

So, yea.

apwill4765 wrote:That would be a quote from the movement rules. From deepstrike rules: "first place one model from the unit ANYWHERE on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive, and roll the scatter dice."

Also, this is NOT a movement, it is a deployment: "roll for arrival of these units as specified in the rules for reserves and then DEPLOY them as follows"

The section the rule is from is irrelevant, it says you can't place them in impassible terrain, and deep strike wants you to place models.

Any action you take whereby you are placing your models on impassible terrain is breaking that rule.

FYI, you can't deploy in impassible terrain normally either.

Dracos wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:That would be a quote from the movement rules. From deepstrike rules: "first place one model from the unit ANYWHERE on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive, and roll the scatter dice."

Also, this is NOT a movement, it is a deployment: "roll for arrival of these units as specified in the rules for reserves and then DEPLOY them as follows"

The section the rule is from is irrelevant, it says you can't place them in impassible terrain, and deep strike wants you to place models.

Any action you take whereby you are placing your models on impassible terrain is breaking that rule.

FYI, you can't deploy in impassible terrain normally either.

The section the rule is from is quite relevant, because the rules for each phase is specific to that phase.

What? Yes you can. Please quote from the deployment section of the rules that says I can't deploy in impassable terrain.

The exact same rule as applies to Deep Strike applies to normal deployment. You can't place models in impassable terrain.

Where that rule is located in the rulebook is irrelevant.

insaniak wrote:The exact same rule as applies to Deep Strike applies to normal deployment. You can't place models in impassable terrain.

Where that rule is located in the rulebook is irrelevant.

PLEASE quote me the passage that says I can't place my models in impassable terrain. I can't move them once I am there, but please let's quote rules and not our opinions.

Also, nowhere in the deepstrike passage does it say that these models use the normal rules for moving on the turn they arrive.

apwill4765 wrote:PLEASE quote me the passage that says I can't place my models in impassable terrain. I can't move them once I am there, but please let's quote rules and not our opinions.

p.14 RB: "Models may not be placed in impassible terrain"

Dracos wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:PLEASE quote me the passage that says I can't place my models in impassable terrain. I can't move them once I am there, but please let's quote rules and not our opinions.

p.14 RB: "Models may not be placed in impassible terrain"

Again, from the terrain section, not the deepstrike or deployment section, which are the relevant passages. "For now, we're going to discuss terrain only in terms of how infantry move through it" BRB Same page. Basically, does not apply to deepstriking. Forcing a mishap is perfectly legal, and the only argument against is "waah it hurts my army". There's no rules leg to stand on. I guess we will see when the FAQ comes out.

Okay let me play devil's advocate for a second here. If rules from previous sections really are irrelevant, then how do you know what a unit is? It tells you to deploy units, and that some units have deep strike, but it does not explain what a unit is.

See how your method of reading the rules does not work? The rulebook builds each section up on top of and in addition to rules from previous sections.

Dracos wrote:Okay let me play devil's advocate for a second here. If rules from previous sections really are irrelevant, then how do you know what a unit is? It tells you to deploy units, and that some units have deep strike, but it does not explain what a unit is.

See how your method of reading the rules does not work? The rulebook builds each section up on top of and in addition to rules from previous sections.

No but I don't apply rules for drawing LOS to declaring an assault either. LOS rules have no bearing on who I can assault, because nowhere am I restricted to assaulting units I have LOS to. Nowhere am I restricted from deploying units in impassable terrain, as per the DEPLOYMENT rules. Because deepstrike is defined as a DEPLOYMENT, the movement rules have no bearing.

pg 14 finishes the oft quoted "Models may not be placed in impassible terrain" phrase with "unless specified otherwise".

Place anywhere is a specification that "anywhere" is ok for placement. Which is otherwise stating, and more specific, being that it is for DS not general placement rules.

Really, the whole sentence does matter.

kirsanth wrote:pg 14 finishes the oft quoted "Models may not be placed in impassible terrain" phrase with "unless specified otherwise".

Place anywhere is a specification that "anywhere" is ok for placement. Which is otherwise stating, and more specific, being that it is for DS not general placement rules.

Really, the whole sentence does matter.

My new name shall forever more be known as the "on the table" dude, as "anywhere on the table". I know, I know; it's much easier to be obtuse and refuse to believe that "on the table" means it actually must physically take up space "on the table" and not "on your opponent's model which happens to be 'on the table".

kirsanth wrote:pg 14 finishes the oft quoted "Models may not be placed in impassible terrain" phrase with "unless specified otherwise".

Place anywhere is a specification that "anywhere" is ok for placement. Which is otherwise stating, and more specific, being that it is for DS not general placement rules.

Really, the whole sentence does matter.

Thank you, an even better argument. The rules for deepstrike say ANYWHERE on the table people!!!! Is there something about the word ANYWHERE that is unclear? Please answer that if you wish to continue this argument. If you address that specific argument then there is a point to continue the discussion. If you ignore it I'll wait for the FAQ


Automatically Appended Next Post:

agnosto wrote:

kirsanth wrote:pg 14 finishes the oft quoted "Models may not be placed in impassible terrain" phrase with "unless specified otherwise".

Place anywhere is a specification that "anywhere" is ok for placement. Which is otherwise stating, and more specific, being that it is for DS not general placement rules.

Really, the whole sentence does matter.

My new name shall forever more be known as the "on the table" dude, as "anywhere on the table". I know, I know; it's much easier to be obtuse and refuse to believe that "on the table" means it actually must physically take up space "on the table" and not "on your opponent's model which happens to be 'on the table".

Agnosto: When deepstriking, you place the mawloc on the table AFTER the intervening models have been moved, as per "Terror from the Deep" rules. If you deepstrike onto impassable terrain with a normal unit, it mishaps (AKA, never placed). When am I setting my model on top of yours? Answer: never.

apwill4765 wrote:No but I don't apply rules for drawing LOS to declaring an assault either.

Of course you wouldn't. But if there is a rule in the LOS section that applies to models in close combat, then it still applies.

The rule that has been quoted multiple times in this thread is in the movement section... but is not a movement rule... because it refers to 'placing' models in impassable terrain, not 'moving' models in it.


So it applies any time you want to place a model in impassable terrain, unless a rules specifically says otherwise.

'Specifically' meaning the rule would have to actually state that the model can be placed in impassable terrain.

kirsanth wrote:pg 14 finishes the oft quoted "Models may not be placed in impassible terrain" phrase with "unless specified otherwise".

Place anywhere is a specification that "anywhere" is ok for placement. Which is otherwise stating, and more specific, being that it is for DS not general placement rules.

Really, the whole sentence does matter.

Actually that is not what it says. The rule continues "unless the models concerned have a special rule in their profile granting them an exception (like being able to fly above the terrain) or both players agree to it."

So you can strike the part about players agreeing, cause that is actually irrelevant.

However, now we come to what a special rule would have to say to grant an exception. To me, it would have to say in the special rule that it may alter its interaction with impassible terrain. Examples of this are Skimmers and Jump Infantry. These are special rules found in the profile that specify that they can go over impassible terrain and land on it in some cases.

Deep strike makes no such exception, and therefore still is bound by this limitation.

apwill4765 wrote:
Agnosto: When deepstriking, you place the mawloc on the table AFTER the intervening models have been moved, as per "Terror from the Deep" rules. If you deepstrike onto impassable terrain with a normal unit, it mishaps (AKA, never placed). When am I setting my model on top of yours? Answer: never.

There's nothing in the Mawloc's rule that exempts him from deep strike rules just the negative consequences of a mishap. You must follow the rules up to and until it is determined that the Mawloc's special rules is even valid. Which means, say it with me people; "Place your model anywhere on the table." thanks.

insaniak wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:No but I don't apply rules for drawing LOS to declaring an assault either.

Of course you wouldn't. But if there is a rule in the LOS section that applies to models in close combat, then it still applies.

The rule that has been quoted multiple times in this thread is in the movement section... but is not a movement rule... because it refers to 'placing' models in impassable terrain, not 'moving' models in it.


So it applies any time you want to place a model in impassable terrain, unless a rules specifically says otherwise.

'Specifically' meaning the rule would have to actually state that the model can be placed in impassable terrain.

Please see my above argument. What does ANYWHERE mean insaniak? That is specifically where the deepstrike rules say a model may be placed. Does it have to say "anywhere, including clear, difficult, dangerous, and impassable"? No, because anywhere means:

an-y-where. adv. : in, at, or to any place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

agnosto wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:
Agnosto: When deepstriking, you place the mawloc on the table AFTER the intervening models have been moved, as per "Terror from the Deep" rules. If you deepstrike onto impassable terrain with a normal unit, it mishaps (AKA, never placed). When am I setting my model on top of yours? Answer: never.

There's nothing in the Mawloc's rule that exempts him from deep strike rules just the negative consequences of a mishap. You must follow the rules up to and until it is determined that the Mawloc's special rules is even valid. Which means, say it with me people; "Place your model anywhere on the table." thanks.

Yes. and so it goes like this

1. Place Mawloc on enemy models
2. Roll Scatter
3. If hit, see mishap rules for mawloc, he still has not been placed, he has just mishapped.
4. oh wait, mawloc has special rules EXEMPTING HIM from normal mishap rules.



. . .So where is he breaking deepstrike rules? He isn't, get over it.

apwill4765 wrote:
Yes. and so it goes like this

1. Place Mawloc on enemy models
2. Roll Scatter
3. If hit, see mishap rules for mawloc, he still has not been placed, he has just mishapped.
4. oh wait, mawloc has special rules EXEMPTING HIM from normal mishap rules.



. . .So where is he breaking deepstrike rules? He isn't, get over it.

Yes, but enemy models are not "the table", so you're not meeting the requirement of "placing your model anywhere on the table" now are you?

And the on the table dude strikes again.

agnosto wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:
Yes. and so it goes like this

1. Place Mawloc on enemy models
2. Roll Scatter
3. If hit, see mishap rules for mawloc, he still has not been placed, he has just mishapped.
4. oh wait, mawloc has special rules EXEMPTING HIM from normal mishap rules.



. . .So where is he breaking deepstrike rules? He isn't, get over it.

Yes, but enemy models are not "the table", so you're not meeting the requirement of "placing your model anywhere on the table" now are you?

And the on the table dude strikes again.

Look at the sequence again, I have placed them in order from first to last for your convenience. The model's final placement is not determined until after scatter is rolled. The rest works itself out.


EDIT: Also, impassable terrain (i.e. enemy models) are on the table. Or aren't they?

Apwill, what is the Deployment phase? I can't find it in the turn sequence at all.

Brother Ramses wrote:Apwill, what is the Deployment phase? I can't find it in the turn sequence at all.

Bro. Ramses, what does "anywhere" mean? Dictionary.com is down =*(

What is terrain?
Is it allowed to include paint, for example?
Is it not part of the gaming surface that is defined?


the issue is that "anywhere" is allowed in a specific catagory of placement.