Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I complain as I do about SW because I shy away from the overpriced plaguemarines, 1ksons, and inflexible berserkers. I use regular CSM and Noisemarines - really only 5 to get the doomsiren champion, and that's mostly for nostalgia reasons since I'm SUPPOSED to be playing Emperor's Children, despite having lost all real impetus for doing so.

Thus, since the basic CSM is the best thing chaos has, supported by its characters and some elite and heavy support options, enter the SW codex with better characters, customizable [and still effective] wargear builds, a more representative elites choice [wolf guard are what chosen should be!], better basic troops that are cheaper and better heavy support....

Gets my blood boiling, really.

Back to missles vs metagame though. It's not hard to have tervigons behind tervigons or tervigons behind trygons. One in front has FNP, one behind has cover. It's a catch 22 that your missle launchers are just not up to the task.

I personally use obliterators for their twin-linked flamers and plasmaguns, followed up by charging with their powerfists.

For 75 points though, they should have kept their S5 and their T4(5) if not T5.

mrwittwer wrote:

Guitardian wrote:Hey I can't even GET a heavy weapon in a 5 man squad with either of my armies. Oh wah wah I only get 1 lascannon in a 5-man squad? puuhhhleeez... Eldar can only put them on models that can't shoot straight, and Marines can only take one for every 10 men. I'm not whining about that because I know my army has its strengths and weaknesses too, but how can you complain about getting boo hoo only 1 out of 5 guys with heavy weapon options?!

Yes you are whining. You have done it this entire thread about your silly eldar. Why you are footslogging guardians with heavy weapons is beyond me, and i can complain about wave serpents full of fire dragons and banshees if you really wanna go there. But this is a chaos thread, quit complaining about eldar.


As to OP's statement. Halsfield got it right away. Chaos havent gotten worse, everything else has just gotten better. I have never used Lash, Oblit, and PM spam. Mainly because my daemon princes are always in CC and lash would be a waste for them. If i really wanted lash i would get a sorc and throw him with some CSM in a rhino. I think that is way more powerfull. A lash sorc in a rhino gets armor and a nice csm squad for wound shielding. But this isnt the real point of the thread i suppose.

CSM are still a very viable option depending on how you play them. This is true with all dex's. Dark eldar are still used and their codex is older than the hills, but strategies are made.

As to the jab at bezerkers being ineffective it really goes like this, if they get the charge they will kill the squad. If they dont, chances are they will die. But the only reason that is true is because bezerkers are a threat, so my opponents send tough things at them. A 10 man squad of bezerkers has around 40 attacks on the charge, on a 30 strong ork boy squad. Hitting on 3's wounding on 3's zerkers shouldnt have a problem. I have had a 10 man squad of zerkers take down 3 grey knight terminators on the charge, a difficult task.

Overall, still a viable list just need to try and think beyond Lash.

Man I am very much not whining... I'm not saying wah wah my Eldar got nerfed so much as saying... we all have strengths and weaknesses with any codex, and using my Eldar as an example. Yeah I know a footslog of guardians is weak, but we get drop and pop dragons for instance. Which other players can complain about all they want, but when my troops go down to flashlights, and their power armor is beaten my my army's strength, I figure it all kind of evens out. I'm so friggin sorry the Chaos lash list isn't quite as abusively overpowered as it once was as other codex get released, but older armies find a way to adapt if the players do. Don't accuse me of whining when I am just trying to use an example. meanie.

The main thing that i think is lackign in the CSM codex when compared to, for example, C:SM is ICs that grant an army-wide bonus (Vulcan with meltas, Pedro with Stubborn) and the ability to make oter units scoring (catain on bike etc etc).

On the other hadn we do have 5 different troops choices, each with their own flavour. Which is more than a lot of armies can boast.

our dreads, i believe, get an extar cc attack when compared to SM dreads.

Finally, and i am now fan of this unit, the Defiler is a walker, with fleet, with up to 4 DCCWs, a battle cannon and Tl autocannon! For 150 points. bargain.

Praxiss wrote:The main thing that i think is lackign in the CSM codex when compared to, for example, C:SM is ICs that grant an army-wide bonus (Vulcan with meltas, Pedro with Stubborn) and the ability to make oter units scoring (catain on bike etc etc).

On the other hadn we do have 5 different troops choices, each with their own flavour. Which is more than a lot of armies can boast.

our dreads, i believe, get an extar cc attack when compared to SM dreads.

Finally, and i am now fan of this unit, the Defiler is a walker, with fleet, with up to 4 DCCWs, a battle cannon and Tl autocannon! For 150 points. bargain.

But often our dreads will be force to shoot when we need them to fight, or forced to run forward when we need them to shoot.

Yeah, but every other army has their little discrepancies too. Why do SMurfs cost more than grey hunters for instance? I just really don't see how "He get's this and I only get this!" sort of thing helps, because, on his end he can call "Hey why doesn't my psyker get lash?" or "why is your xx unit so cheap?" whatever uneven codex balance on one area just becomes a rant from another player. Just trust your dice gods, they have far more effect than a point here or there between armies. Chaos is great.

SM prob. cost a bit more to lump the points into a 'free' Vet and the weapons that come with reaching 10 members.
_________

That aside, I agree Chaos is great...whether you use the CSM codex, SM codex, SW codex, or the upcoming BA codex

That's a different kind of chaos though bro.... hee hee hee...


---btw notice the 'free' vet isnt actually free as the first 5 marines cost more than the added 5 marines. blame guilleman for only thinking in 10s, and insisting on a leader, and not allowing weapons to squads that don't obey his numbers.

Praxiss wrote:

Finally, and i am now fan of this unit, the Defiler is a walker, with fleet, with up to 4 DCCWs, a battle cannon and Tl autocannon! For 150 points. bargain.

...on a massive AV12 model with no some launchers, in a meta geared towards killing light vehicles. You might get to fire that battlecannon once before your heap of scrap metal goes down in a hail of autocannon fire.

Defilers get smoke launchers

Every model is expendable though. Maybe their entire purpose is that they are so ridiculously offensive (battcan + CC badass) but somewhat easy to bring down makes them a decoy to the badguy's plans having to divert shots just to bring it down? That's how I use my Vypers... just a distraction to psyche the other guy out.

@Guitardian:
I don't think you read my 'free' part the way I intended it. What I typed there was basically saying what you said... that's why there are ' ' around free and not just free by itself .

Like I said, SM are more expensive because they lump in the weapons and the vet into it. In a direct sense it's a free Vet, indirectly it's 'free' as in you've paid for it, see?

Well sure, but CSM get the option right? That's a big difference IMO when you want to max out heavy weapon troop squads. That's why they're chaos, right? Not obeying Guilleman's rule of 10?

@Guitardian:
Sheesh, I was only giving one answer to your question as to why SM cost a bit more... I had not intention of getting into SM vs CSM troop unit comparisons. IMO they are entirely different and do not warrent this comparison...

Um... CSM still obey Guilleman's rule of 10 if they want a second Special weapon or a single heavy weapon to mimic the Tactical squads...

Sure, the CSM get the option for getting a Champ, whoop-di-do. They prob. need it for the Ld10 as they don't have ATSKNF or they fork out the points for IoCG, etc, etc. Different units, different roles, different synergy, different edition of entry even.

/shrug. I'm prob. just not as informed as others are when it comes to comparing troop choices across armies.

The chaos space marines have alot of advantages. One thing that i truly love is the lesser deamons. I love tossing icons on my plague marines because its cheap and i get some awsome CC reinforcement for my plaguemarines that my enemy never knows where they will come in and charge asap(with no random landing place, hurray for icons)

I hate the concept of tiers, because its a rare day that you play an equally skilled opponent with fully tooled up lists. Its very what if. And closes peoples minds.

But chaos is not the king of the hill in the standard what if situation.

However

CSM suck for me because

I hate:

DP
PM
Fzorgle
Obilts

I.e all the strong gak.

And spamming melta CSM in rhinos is not fun.

Also previous list written (with the 20 PMs) suffers form death star unit syndrome.. I want redundancy dammit.

epil wrote:The chaos space marines have alot of advantages. One thing that i truly love is the lesser deamons. I love tossing icons on my plague marines because its cheap and i get some awsome CC reinforcement for my plaguemarines that my enemy never knows where they will come in and charge asap(with no random landing place, hurray for icons)

Just want to point out that the randomness of lesser daemons is both helpful and hurtful. I would also like to point out how expensive they are when you could spend a tiny bit more and get a csm with all the trimmings(and only have to spend more time getting them there). The shooting round of a turn should not be undervalued.

@Halsfield:
I don't know... the worst Lessers could do is come in turn 1...anything else is creampie IMO.

As for Lesser Daemons vs. CSM...
130 for 10, while CSM who need to be kitted to do their job are what...255? (10, fist, IoCG, 2 Meltas, Rhino).

Lesser daemons are 'cheaper' by alot because of their lack of upgrades. The CSM to perform their role need those upgrades.

Realistically speaking it would end up those 10 CSM with their tools paid for would have the oppurtunity cost of 20 lesser daemons.

Obviously everbody has thier likings between the two, but in my CSM list anyway, the 20 lesser daemons make their way into my lists more than Defilers/Raptors/CSMs. They add alot of bodies truely.

I would heartily disagree with your assessment of LDs versus CSM.

To do the job of the lessers, CSM need 10 bodies and a rhino. That puts them at 55 points more, but they have guns and a vehicle. They've also got grenades, and a better armor save offsets the 5+ invul.

If you're going to fully kit out the CSM squad, then quite clearly they can do a good deal more than LDs.

Can we get off the Lesser Daemons? I don't think anybody is questioning that they are a fine use of your last X points, if you've got some icons around. A scoring unit that can charge on the turn it shows up isn't exactly controversial.

If I understand the thrust of this topic, it's not that CSM aren't variable, nor that they aren't fluffy, or whatever. The topic claims they can't compete nowadays. That they are second tier, when compared with the new books.

My take on that is that your basic CSM list beats Nids handily, loses to Guard slightly less handily, and has an even game vs. Space Wolves. None of these seem like terribly controversial assertions. That's a respectable matrix, you can take it to a tourney without feeling guilty about giving points away. In other words, it's a strong list, certainly as much so as Space Wolves or Space Marines.

@Sourclams:

Ugh...I'm not gonna get into that here...as I've written about it extensively on it elsewhere.

Agree to Disagree.

When an identical model from one codex costs more points than the same model taken from a different codex, the more expensive codex is obviously at a disadvantage.

CSM have this problem.

Vindicators and Predators are outright cheaper in the newer marine codexes. Exact same models, cost more. Other units are more expensive than their equivalents too, although the details can be quibbled. Bikes, Jump-packers, Devs/Havoks, etc.

Compare the 1500 point lists below:

Space Marines:

Librarian w/ Null Zone & Avenger
Dread w/ TL Las
Tac Squad w/ Lascannon, Melta, Sgt w/ powerfist & combi-melta, rhino
Tac Squad w/ Missile Launcher, flamer, Sgt w/ powerfist, combi-flamer, rhino
10 assault marines w/ 2 flamers, powerfist sgt
Vindicator
Predator w/ autocannon, HB sponsons
8 Devs w/ 4 ML


C:SM
Sorceror w/ Wind of Chaos
Dread w/ TL Las
10 C:SM, Lascannon, Melta, champ w/ powerfist, combi-melta, rhino
10 C:SM, Missile, flamer, champ w/ combi-flamer, rhino
10 Raptors w/ 2 flamers, powerfist champ
Vindicator
Predator w/ autocannon, HB sponsons
8 Havoks w/ 4 ML


What's different here?
Let's see, the CSM troop squads get 2 attacks each.

In exchange...
The Space Marines can combat squad, fielding twice the scoring units, and allowing their special weapons to get in range while their heavy weapons sit back at range.
The SM have ATSKNF and Combat Tactics.
The SM's dread isn't going to go insane and shoot his own unit - or charge forward when that lascannon shot is needed.
The SM's librarian lacks an inv. save, but has a psychic hood!! and two powers.
One of the SM dreads gets to shoot with BS5.
The SM vindicator comes with a storm bolter (while still costing 10 points less)

Oh yeah, and the SM list still has roughly 150 more points to spend. They can still add a pair of MM/HF land speeders.


Anything that is generically marinish is overpriced in the C:CSM. You have no psychic defense, which is huge in a tournament. You have unreliable dreads, a lack of decent inexpensive units (like speeders), and overpriced basic men.

The only way that C:CSM is competitive is if you stick to the things that you can't do better and cheaper in the standard Marine codex. Cult Troops, Oblits, Daemon Princes, Marks, to some extent - if you're going to make a competitive CSM list, that's what you need to look at. Cause if you're running the Marine part of Chaos Space Marines you can't compete on even footing.

Well, as you say the Spiky SMurfs are not supposed to operate with a mirror list to the Smurfs.

CSM get 2 Attacks, yup.
Combat squad is cool, but it has its pros and cons, the most you can say is that the option is nice to have, but CSM are not really the sort to go with Hvy weapons, so IMO it's moot to point this out.
ATSKNF/combat tactics: IoCG should really parallel with ATSKF and the extra point of Ld too, as for combat tactics, much like combat squad, it's nice to have the option, but has it's pros and cons.
CSM Dread: it can also go the other way: getting 2 shots with the multi-melta on the enemy LR facing you or fleeting into combat with the enemy monolith.
SM Libby is more for utility, while the Chaos Sorc is more of a fighter.
I don't know why you brought up the Ven dread if you are trying to compare the two lists with no Ven dread in sight...
As for the vindi, no arguements there, but the Vindi should really be Possessed or bust.

That aside, the CSM is not supposed to mirror the SM list...they are different armies, different units, applied differently.

Cause if you're running the Marine part of Chaos Space Marines you can't compete on even footing.

I agree, IMO it's unthinkable to want to mirror a SM codex with CSM, bonuses or not.

Redbeard wrote:<Snip>
C:SM
Sorceror w/ Wind of Chaos
Dread w/ TL Las
10 C:SM, Lascannon, Melta, champ w/ powerfist, combi-melta, rhino
10 C:SM, Missile, flamer, champ w/ combi-flamer, rhino
10 Raptors w/ 2 flamers, powerfist champ
Vindicator
Predator w/ autocannon, HB sponsons
8 Havoks w/ 4 ML

So what youre saying is dont try to play exactly like Space Marines with a book that is completely different?

Chaos Marines are better than Tacticals. Infact, theyre so much better that you will even see 40 Chaos Marines in a standard list. I have never seen 40 tacticals in a SM list. I find more often than not that tacticals are kept to a bare minimum because theyre worthless. 2 meltas, an icon and x2 the amount of attacks is a pretty big difference.

I now use dreads to help with long range fire support, and I would never equip them with a lascannon. Keep them cheap and safe with Missiles or Plasma Cannons (or even an extra arm giving them 4 attacks, 5 on charge). I used to hate dreads because of their rules, but I find that theyre so cheap and add so much armour to my list that they actually do extremely well.

Chaos Predators are better than Space Marine Predators. Not because of their points, or because of additional options, but because of the role they play. For example, if someone shoots my predator as a Chaos player, Im happy. The odds of destroying it are low, and if they stun it, its not big deal because the troops in rhinos (the core of the army) just moved up another 12". If Im a general SM player, having my predator get stunned is a bad thing (against most armies) because I would need that shooting to say...shoot Chaos rhinos heading towards my line.

Havoks are better than devs because of autocannons. Autocannons are beastly. There is absolutely no need for obliterators (theyre a good option, just not necessarily needed).

I hate the Chaos Vindicator, infact its one of two models I dont own. I would rank it 6th in the Heavy Support category.


Pretty much my point is, you cant make a SM list with its own goal in mind, convert it to a CSM list, and say "this doesnt work, the marines in the CSM dex suck".

By the way, a Prince is a marine.

Something I'll point out is that I started back into 40k with a Blood Angels/Chaos Space Marine army - designed to be playable under either list, and I was astonished at how differently they played despite using the same models.

The problem seems to be that people expect Marines to be Marines whether they're Blue, Red, Furrie, or Spiky. Each army needs to be played to their own strengths. Codex Space Marines are defensive and low risk, while Chaos Space Marines are high reward and high power, etc.

Redbeard wrote:Compare the 1500 point lists below:

Space Marines:

Librarian w/ Null Zone & Avenger
Dread w/ TL Las
Tac Squad w/ Lascannon, Melta, Sgt w/ powerfist & combi-melta, rhino
Tac Squad w/ Missile Launcher, flamer, Sgt w/ powerfist, combi-flamer, rhino
10 assault marines w/ 2 flamers, powerfist sgt
Vindicator
Predator w/ autocannon, HB sponsons
8 Devs w/ 4 ML


C:SM
Sorceror w/ Wind of Chaos
Dread w/ TL Las
10 C:SM, Lascannon, Melta, champ w/ powerfist, combi-melta, rhino
10 C:SM, Missile, flamer, champ w/ combi-flamer, rhino
10 Raptors w/ 2 flamers, powerfist champ
Vindicator
Predator w/ autocannon, HB sponsons
8 Havoks w/ 4 ML

.

I dont mean to offend but all this does is prove that CSM are not the same as C:SM. I would never ever run a Chaos list like the your example. Your comparison highlights all of the space marines good points and none of chaos's good points. Chaos Marines should in no way be played the same as Space Marines.

Double melta, plasma, or flamers on CSM squads and NO HEAVY WEAPONS. Chaos Dreads should never use a lascannon, the best way is double CC weapons with flamer. Autocannons on the havocs. Raptors are generally bad, unless they are used as tank hunters with double melta. And a plain Sorcerer with nothing but wind is very poor.

While the two lists are comparative, it makes absolutely no difference what the cost difference is as CSM should never be loaded out as such.

Mind you, I think it would be very instructive for people to play one game as the Codex list and another game as the Chaos list.

I'm not saying they should be played the same. Geeze, you guys don't even read whole posts do you.

Redbeard wrote:
The only way that C:CSM is competitive is if you stick to the things that you can't do better and cheaper in the standard Marine codex. Cult Troops, Oblits, Daemon Princes, Marks, to some extent - if you're going to make a competitive CSM list, that's what you need to look at. Cause if you're running the Marine part of Chaos Space Marines you can't compete on even footing.

That said, regardless of the book, it is poor game design to have point costs based on how you believe a codex should play.

The stated design goal of using points is so that two players can show up and play a game and know that their forces are reasonably balanced.

That is the stated design goal. It's stated explicitly on page ix of the rulebook. "Whatever you choose within this total, the battle will be a fair match, decided by good tactics, and a little bit of luck."

If I want to play my chaos marines as recently rebelling traitors and renegades (isn't that the new fluff??) who haven't yet dedicated themselves to chaos or set off to become daemons, my army should still be able to sit on the table and expect a fair match.

With that as the stated design goal, it is a failure if a player shows up with identical models, but due to the book they chose to use to make that army, has to face off against an obviously superior enemy that has both superior rules, and also two extra units (the land speeders) to boot.

If Chaos Space Marines aren't supposed to be able to function like marines, then this needs to be reflected in what the codex allows me to take, not the point costs of what I am allowed to take.

Telling me that my stuff is bad because the codex isn't meant to be used that way only reinforces the fact that GW cannot meet their own stated design goal, and that the C:CSM codex is underpowered. But then we all know that GW rules-writers cannot do a decent job.

I know the way it is - and that's that you can make a decent C:CSM army, if you focus on the Chaos part, not the Marine part. But that's not how it should be.

Redbeard wrote:I'm not saying they should be played the same. Geeze, you guys don't even read whole posts do you.

Redbeard wrote:
The only way that C:CSM is competitive is if you stick to the things that you can't do better and cheaper in the standard Marine codex. Cult Troops, Oblits, Daemon Princes, Marks, to some extent - if you're going to make a competitive CSM list, that's what you need to look at. Cause if you're running the Marine part of Chaos Space Marines you can't compete on even footing.

Except thats the part I disagree with. I do not use oblits, defilers, cultists, daemons, etc. The closest thing I use is a Prince, who also happens to be a marine.

I use Dreads, Preds, Havocs, and even Raptors - all things you just said are not competitive.

Redbeard:

Suppose, just for a second, that we might actually reject your premise that the CSM list you've cited is not on an even footing with the SM list you've cited. Suppose also that we might reject the notion that GW has somehow missed a design goal in not ensuring that Chaos Space Marines can be played in the same way as Codex Space Marines. Then you can see why we might reject your conclusions, and hence appear as though we have not be entirely convinced by your cunning arguments.

Furthermore you say:

Redbeard wrote:That said, regardless of the book, it is poor game design to have point costs based on how you believe a codex should play.

Redbeard wrote:I know the way it is - and that's that you can make a decent C:CSM army, if you focus on the Chaos part, not the Marine part. But that's not how it should be.

So you believe that the points-costs should be otherwise than what the designers believe they should be. How is your approach to the army any better than theirs?