Adepticon 2010 Cheating and letting you deicide!

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**Matthias**

Redbeard wrote:
As I stated somewhere else, the reason people don't say things at the time is that they often don't realize there's anything funny going on at the time. When I play games, I give people the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps that's a bad habit on my part. My opponent hands me his list, I glance at it, but for the most part, I trust his models to be WYSIWYG, because those are the rules for the event, and that's how I play. If someone had an extra missile in there, I probably wouldn't catch it until after the event when I was collecting my thoughts and typing in their list as I was writing a battle report. If someone forgot to take a weird codex-specific test, I might not realize they had to until I recounted what happened to a friend after the game who then mentioned that such a test was part of the rule. You can catch people on some stuff at the time, and correct it on the spot, but most players, in my experience, only really know a few codexes front-to-back, and have to trust their opponents on the others. I think the quiz results from Adepticon back that view too.

It would be nice if we could just play games without feeling that we have to be hyper-vigilant, but I know that it's unrealistic to expect judges to catch stuff in advance at smaller events, and doubly-so at large events. That doesn't mean the event isn't good or even that the judges aren't good. It might mean that some people need to win their toy soldier games a little too much... It's a lot to ask any given player to keep track of everything an opponent does with an unfamiliar codex within a 2-hour game.

I don't necessarily disagree with you here Alex, but there is a reality to this whole thing that is often overlooked. The game is imperfect. The playing of the game is imperfect. Sometimes legitimate mistakes are made and sometimes people willingly cheat. Nick was vigilant, he called the guy on it and he received no benefit form an extra missile launcher that game. That is exactly how it should of happened. Things like that do not require intimate knowledge of every codex in existence.

I fully realize the varying levels of investment out there. Not everyone can be a 40K-guru, nor should they have to be...but if people are going to hold events like this to the competitive-fire and make all sorts of sports analogies - then I fully believe they should also be required to have full knowledge of the rules and resolve issues that arise in their own games. No one has to sit the Chicago White Sox down before each game an explain to them the rules of baseball...

**Redbeard**

Matthias wrote:No one has to sit the Chicago White Sox down before each game an explain to them the rules of baseball...

Well, they did get caught cheating that one time...

Though I do understand what you're saying about an imperfect game, and I agree with you. I think that holding 40k events to this level of competitive scrutiny is kind of silly as well. The game isn't designed for it. There was probably more at stake at the poker game than during any of the 40k events...

**kronk**

Darkwynn wrote:
kronk wrote:

After a full weekend of gaming, I can see fatigue or whatever setting in and just not giving a damn at that point. So I wouldn't begrudge anyone that just said "whatever, man" and let it go. Nor can I say that I wouldn't do the same. We're only human, right?

you hit it on the spot for me Kronk, It was the last game of the day on 3 hours of sleep and I went whatever, lets just finish the game and move on. I want to go play the poker game and obviously he wanted the game more then I did. Plus I already had won a thunderhawk to cuddle up to on my way home.

Been there, and I understand it completely.

**Darkwynn**

Redbeard wrote:
Matthias wrote:No one has to sit the Chicago White Sox down before each game an explain to them the rules of baseball...

Well, they did get caught cheating that one time...

Though I do understand what you're saying about an imperfect game, and I agree with you. I think that holding 40k events to this level of competitive scrutiny is kind of silly as well. The game isn't designed for it. There was probably more at stake at the poker game than during any of the 40k events...

I agree on that one holding events like this is kind of silly... on the other hand wait you guys still have a baseball team? Though after you picked up Jordan it went all down hill back in the 90's

**Redbeard**

Wasn't it a Texan team we beat (swept...) in the World Series only a few years ago?

**Darkwynn**

Redbeard wrote:Wasn't it a Texan team we beat (swept...) in the World Series only a few years ago?

I have no idea what your talking about

**njpc**

Its interesting to see how posts spiral. There are really simpler steps to all this tournment issues.

1. If you are being video taped, request not to be. Be polite. But give a real reason. Me, I just don't like being taped. Its come up before, I've asked my opponent if we mind halting at the next game turn to address it. If its one of his mates, I ask if he can ask the guy.

2. There really is not that much blatant cheating in the us. And its rarely at the top tables! This comes up every tournment. If it comes up in game, it needs to be handled by the guys in game if they feel its impacting. Post comments days removed does nothing.

3. If I see a guy with a 12 inch tape out, for something that's a 6 inch move. I mention something politely. "He, just pointing out you really only need 6 inches, can we back that down?" Consistency is the key. You mention it on turn 1. If you wait until turn 6, then you should have been more proactive.

4. Its a little different in the North east. Most of the guys at GT's and on the upper tables all know each other. You don't see these type of things that seem to come up at a more National scale, like the adepticon's. I just don't want to see this give US events a bad name for people screaming cheater.

**bushidoredpanda**

Redbeard wrote:Wasn't it a Texan team we beat (swept...) in the World Series only a few years ago?

That's not really saying much.

GO RED SOX!

On topic: I agree with Nick that we should really move on. I'd honestly have preferred that none of the video was released and that the matter was dealt with in a more private manner. Even if that meant we just learned to keep an eye out in the future...

**Matthias**

Redbeard wrote:Though I do understand what you're saying about an imperfect game, and I agree with you. I think that holding 40k events to this level of competitive scrutiny is kind of silly as well. The game isn't designed for it. There was probably more at stake at the poker game than during any of the 40k events...

Absolutely. The truth is - I can video tape any game of 40K played and find something I could call into question/consider suspect. The second either player bumps the table, moves a model 1/2" too far, rolls a cocked die, knocks over a model, forgets a special rule, forgets to deploy a unit/roll for reserves...the game is bunk. This list is endless really and these things are bound to happen all the time for the eternity of 40K. No one plays this game professionally and to claim so in any form is extremely silly.

**RiTides**

I kept searching through the posts, trying to find out where Redbeard had contributed... and now I see you've just changed your avatar, and that's what confused me

**asugradinwa**

We have confirmation that the player (Tim) used 4 missile launchers in more then 1 game in the tournament.

That is cheating if his list only said he had 3.

It doesn't matter if he knowingly did it or not, the first time he rolled 4 dice for missiles he should have been DQed from that game.

**gorgon**

Yeah, I'd really hate to have a camera trained on me for every minute of a 5-game tourney. I always measure accurately, etc., but I'm sure I goof up a rule once in a while. That wouldn't make me a cheater, it'd make me human.

And yeah, if someone dragged my name all over the internet calling me a cheater for an honest in-game mistake, they'd probably receive a letter from my attorney.

But really I hope as a community we can start dealing with issues at the event in question whenever possible instead of this next-day/week stuff all over the internet. Look at what's going on at GWUS. Let's not give them reasons to second-guess some things, if you get my drift.

**kronk**

Darkwynn wrote:
Redbeard wrote:Wasn't it a Texan team we beat (swept...) in the World Series only a few years ago?

I have no idea what your talking about

I think that was directed at me. To quote the Cubs, wait until next year!

asugradinwa wrote:
We have confirmation that the player (Tim) used 4 missile launchers in more then 1 game in the tournament.

That is cheating if his list only said he had 3.

It doesn't matter if he knowingly did it or not, the first time he rolled 4 dice for missiles he should have been DQed from that game.

I was really hoping it was just a 1-time, honest mistake. I don't know what your source is, asugradinwa, nor am I asking for it. I just find the whole thing to be sad. I've got nothing more to add.

**Frazzled**

Timmah wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Timmah wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Blunt Force Trauma wrote:
Timmah wrote:Wow, you guys really get upset over people video taping your game at a public venue?

.

Sure do. I hate kibitzers, onlookers, and people taping/talking about my games. Why tape? Are they playing? Did they ask for permission? Are they going to follow a player into the bathroom and tape that too? Please. I've nothing to hide but I do not want my face, persona, or likeness on the internet, blog or any other hack media site. Last thing I need is to be called out on BoK for some BS I didn't do and then be asked to defend myself. No thanks. I play fair no need to record unless you get my permission.

Exactly. I have no problem with bystanders if they are quiet however, except for "OOh AAhng". It is a tournament and they shouldn't be giving advice or commenting except for an orklike roll of dice etc.

Notice I did not say talking, I said taping. Taping a public game at a public venue is completely legal and completely different from your other situations.

If you go to a football game do you get mad if the stadium camera gets you in a group shot?

I do not need your permission to record your game. I might ask out of politeness, but there is nothing that says I have to get consent to tape it.

Kid its private property and a private event. I can sue you for sport. I say this not in happiness-I'm on the receiving end of it.

Son, it is a public venue that allowed cameras into it. Meaning its fair game to do any sort of video reporting you want as long as its not for a profit.

Clue, you not have. Internet armed, vs. $50,000 - $100,000 legal bill, you be.

**asugradinwa**

kronk wrote:

asugradinwa wrote:
We have confirmation that the player (Tim) used 4 missile launchers in more then 1 game in the tournament.

That is cheating if his list only said he had 3.

It doesn't matter if he knowingly did it or not, the first time he rolled 4 dice for missiles he should have been DQed from that game.

I was really hoping it was just a 1-time, honest mistake. I don't know what your source is, asugradinwa, nor am I asking for it. I just find the whole thing to be sad. I've got nothing more to add.

SPARKEYG wrote:First point, I played Tim in the first round.
Second point, he did play w/ a four missile launcher Dev squad in the game we played.
Third point, I can't watch and listen to the videos from work so I cannot comment as to their contents, at this time.

The source is SparkeyG from page 1 of this thread.

**skkipper**

We all have to remember 40k is a game between 2 people. If player A lets Player B cheat him that is player A's problem. This stuff needs to be stopped mid game by the opponent.

after dice are down it doesn't matter if you cheated.

**Valhallan42nd**

Quite frankly, I'd be upset with anyone filming one of my games w/o my permission. Not that I'll ever be on a top table...

**Black Blow Fly**

Some people are saying Tasty Taste pulled this stunt solely to increase traffic at his blog spot with no real concern for true justice.

G

**12thRonin**

Matthias wrote:
No one has to sit the Chicago White Sox down before each game an explain to them the rules of baseball...

There are also 3-4 umpires running every baseball game and watching every play. Even then shady things still happen (Joe Niekro anyone?). There's no such mechanism here.

**Darkwynn**

Valhallan42nd wrote:Quite frankly, I'd be upset with anyone filming one of my games w/o my permission. Not that I'll ever be on a top table...

everyone did consent to allow the table be filmed by a bunch of people. I know we had our camera there on my right shoulder recording to put it up on the blog just for the thrill of the game and give people a idea of the table but like I said before I was a idiot and blocked ours with my shoulder.

**Frazzled**

Black Blow Fly wrote:Some people are saying Tasty Taste pulled this stunt solely to increase traffic at his blog spot with no real concern for true justice.

G

There is no Justice, Just Us.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darkwynn wrote:
Valhallan42nd wrote:Quite frankly, I'd be upset with anyone filming one of my games w/o my permission. Not that I'll ever be on a top table...

everyone did consent to allow the table be filmed by a bunch of people. I know we had our camera there on my right shoulder recording to put it up on the blog just for the thrill of the game and give people a idea of the table but like I said before I was a idiot and blocked ours with my shoulder.

And I am sure if one of the players asked you to stop you would have.

**Darkwynn**

ya, I would have had one of the guys take the camera or turn it off or something but no one did such a thing...

I am still kind of confused why people are getting so upset about the camera thing when people had consent and didn't mind it. Wyatt and I had our game tapped for gladiator to and it was great. If you don't liked getting taped or viewed fine cool, but no one said anything like that so I guess I am a little confused why people are bringing that up.

**Frazzled**

Darkwynn wrote:ya, I would have had one of the guys take the camera or turn it off or something but no one did such a thing...

I am still kind of confused why people are getting so upset about the camera thing when people had consent and didn't mind it. Wyatt and I had our game tapped for gladiator to and it was great. If you don't liked getting taped or viewed fine cool, but no one said anything like that so I guess I am a little confused why people are bringing that up.

You answered your own question my man and I might add, did it properly. Everyone gave their consent. I said I would be annoyed if someone started videotaping. Hence, I would not have given my consent.

**Matthias**

12thRonin wrote:There are also 3-4 umpires running every baseball game and watching every play. Even then shady things still happen (Joe Niekro anyone?). There's no such mechanism here.

Sure there is. You can make the calls and then call for official ruling at any point. You have dominion over your own game.

Things go uncalled in professional sports all the time...bad calls are made in professional sports all the time...these things are bound to happen in 40K too, if you view it as a sport...

**Brother Ramses**

Frazzled wrote:
Darkwynn wrote:ya, I would have had one of the guys take the camera or turn it off or something but no one did such a thing...

I am still kind of confused why people are getting so upset about the camera thing when people had consent and didn't mind it. Wyatt and I had our game tapped for gladiator to and it was great. If you don't liked getting taped or viewed fine cool, but no one said anything like that so I guess I am a little confused why people are bringing that up.

You answered your own question my man and I might add, did it properly. Everyone gave their consent. I said I would be annoyed if someone started videotaping. Hence, I would not have given my consent.

And I would have kept taping and then just blurred your face out before posting it online. Problem solved.

**Frazzled**

not to me. That would be impolite and I would respond in kind.

**Brother Ramses**

I am covered from any privacy issues by blurring you out. Any other issue you want to cite about me taping you is moot since I am just taping the game, not you.

I would even edit the video so your face is replaced with angry Leonatos from 300.

**faeslayer**

Brother Ramses wrote:I am covered from any privacy issues by blurring you out. Any other issue you want to cite about me taping you is moot since I am just taping the game, not you.

I would even edit the video so your face is replaced with angry Leonatos from 300.

Speaking personally, I just wouldn't want to play while having a video camera on me the whole time. It'd be weird and distracting. I wouldn't care if they assured me it'd be blurred out, or whatever (why would I care if someone saw my face?).

But regardless of whether I'd like it or not, I certainly think that, if one of the people actually playing the game asked the cameraman to please not do that while they're trying to play, the request should be honored out of basic courtesy.

**Saldiven**

MVBrandt wrote:
Timmah wrote:I know everyone has the same question on their minds, so I'll be the jerk and ask it for everyone's sake.

Man his army list looks bad, how did he even make top tables?

3 rounds with 120 people = hard to guarantee everyone is getting proper pairings. Some top finishers went up against things like multiple mech guard, while others didn't even have to play a single "optimized" army list. Take Adepticon results with a grain of salt, perhaps?

OT, but I kinda agree with this.

If there are more than 20-30 players, calling someone a "winner" of a tournament after three rounds is kind of a joke.

**Iron_Chaos_Brute**

Saldiven wrote:
MVBrandt wrote:
Timmah wrote:I know everyone has the same question on their minds, so I'll be the jerk and ask it for everyone's sake.

Man his army list looks bad, how did he even make top tables?

3 rounds with 120 people = hard to guarantee everyone is getting proper pairings. Some top finishers went up against things like multiple mech guard, while others didn't even have to play a single "optimized" army list. Take Adepticon results with a grain of salt, perhaps?

OT, but I kinda agree with this.

If there are more than 20-30 players, calling someone a "winner" of a tournament after three rounds is kind of a joke.

Guys, I agree (and I'm telling you that to stop you yelling at me for no reason

)...but we don't need to bring this up again.