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I would drop all of them . Make you guys do wha tever you want , I want cheese marines ><

I would make a point cost system to select army disciplines, 10 points for army special rules or something like that... taking advantages would take away from the total, and taking disadvantages would add to the total. Assaulty army -5... add 20% cost to tanks +2 and so on.

40k
1. Adeptus Astartes - all marines
2. Imperium of Man - Mechanicus, IG, PDF, Arbites,
3. Inquisition, all ordos
4. Orks all
5. Tyranids all (with genestealer cults, and build your own creature rules)
6. Eldar all (craftworld, exodite and dark)
7. Xenos Ancient - Necrons, slann/space lizardmen, jokaero
8. Xenos Young - Tau, Squats, Kroot, whatever
9. Chaos marines/daemons/lost and the damned

Fantasy (same as potato)
1) Orcs, Goblins and Ogres (plenty of mingling allowed, but options to create one-race armies)
2) Chaos (North-men and daemons all under one roof)
3) Realms of man (essentially Empire and Brettonians in one book)
4) Elves of light (High elves and Wood elves, but no mingling)
5) Dark elves
6) The ancients (Lizardmen, but with a cooler name)
7) Dwarves
8) Undead (Tomb kings, vampire counts all in one book. Some mingling)
9) Beasts (Beasts of chaos and skaven)

Well that one was done to death already. Shame on me for not perusing thread

OK

1. Black Templar
2. Rest of SM (what can I say, I play BT)<~~~ only combining because I am forced if I want 9 codices
3. Tyranids
4. Imperial Guard
5. Orks
6. Eldar
7. Chaos
8. Necrons
9. SoB


Also, for all of you wanting to combine ALL marine codices into one, with ICs for each and special rules (upgrade units to Death company by including Mephiston? really?).

How is one monster 500 page codex that takes 3 years to write any better than 5 100 page codices that take like a 3 years to get all of them out. Face it, there is too much flavor in the different space marine chapters to include fluff, differentiability, and balance in one codex. It is a pipe dream, and kind of a silly aspiration at that. It would force the majority of GW's customers to use one clunky, cumbersome, unbalanced, bland book. It's just a BAD idea.

Personally I always thought that Tyranids fit nicely into the Fantasy world.

About 13 years ago I had an ace game in a GW store. My 'stealers knocked the living gak out of some Brettonian Knights. And Carnifex v Griffon is a joy for all involved.

You know what, I reckon we could go even lower than nine books- just condense everything into a few massive books, allowing allies to be taken outside of Apocalypse.
Let's see-
1. Codex: Imperium-Space Marines, non-codex Chapters, Imperial Guard, Inquisition, Mechanicus, Grey Knights, SQUATS all in one tome!
2. Codex:Eldar-All Craftworlds, Harleys, DE, but no mixing with the last bit.)
3. Codex: Tau Empire- Tau, Kroot, Niccasar, Human Auxillaries, lots of other species.
4. Codex: Orks- As was said before, custimisation for all the clans, more vehichles, more special characters.
5. Codex: Chaos- CSM, LaTD, Daemons, Renegades, all together
6. Codex: Tyranids- More gaunt varieties, Dominatrixes and Norm Queens.
7. Codex: Necrons- All the C'Tan, more tanks, flyers, infantry besides warriors, monstrous creatures, etc.

Something for next edition eh?

Very nice condensing there Boss. I'm hoping your idea was to include Apocalypse units in them as well, because a Norm Queen might be a little big for regular games.

I think people would be pretty miffed to lose content. My approach would be to make the nine codex literal tomes of wargaming goodness. It seems to me that the content to development time ratio we have now leaves much to be desired.

1. Space Marines, all first founding and significant Chapters (Incl. GK)
2. Tau, Septs/Farsight Enclaves
3. Eldar/Dark Eldar
4. Necrons
5. Forces of Chaos, containing Chaos Space Marines, Deamons, and LOTD
6.Tyranids
7. Orks, with rules for different major klans.
8. Forces of the Imperium (Mostly IG, with special Ecclisiarchy Inquistion and Abhuman Units)
9. Admech
9

Honestly?

Black Templars.

And I say that as a person with the beginnings of a Black Templar army and as someone who really likes the concept of 'Crusading Marines'.

Black Templars were a cynical attempt to cash in on a popular (READ: broken) army, that being the Codex: Eye of Terror BT's, that backfired horribly - the Codex wasn't broken, they spent a lot of money making Rhino and Land Raider doors in plastic that didn't sell well, and the writer of that Codex got the boot and was relegated to writing novels rather than novels and Codices. You'll also notice that they've avoided doing full doors for Land Raiders/Rhinos since, preferring to instead make super-sized icons that you can stick on doors. Makes more sense really.

They're also the first full Codex for a non-First Founding Chapter, and were something that wasn't different enough to be a full army. The Woofs and Space Vampires already cover the angry HTH side of the Marine world, with Dark Angels and Ultras being the shooty side, so BT's really were a fifth wheel (as much as I liked them).

I'd drop them.


And Daemons - the reigning king of the "Codex: Unnecessary" title. That was an even more cynical money making attempt, with the bean-counters basically forcing Gav Thorpe & Co. to split Daemons out from Chaos. We trash the Generic Daemons in the 'Chaos' Codex (and rightly so), but as Gav said, they were the compromise. Without them there'd be no Daemons in the 'Chaos' Codex. Imagine that...



And I'd replace these Codices with the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Lost & the Mother Fething Damned!!!!!!

For 40k:

1. Blood Angels. Who needs sparkly Twilight marines? Or even worse, emo vampire marines?
2. Dark Angels. Oh no, half their brothers turned against them during the war. They are the HH in microcosm.
3. Space Wolves. Please. Drunken space vikings? Squat them.
4. Actually, make ALL marines into Ultramarines. Even if they are painted red (or green, or black or grey).
Leave the rest.

Fantasy:
Squat the lot.

Exterminatus the planet.

(I don't play fantasy, and don't even read the stuff.).

chromedog wrote:1. Blood Angels. Who needs sparkly Twilight marines? Or even worse, emo vampire marines?

Neither of which describe Blood Angels, who are far heavier on the 'Angel' theme than they are on the 'Blood' part.

I mean really, Gold armour, halos and fething wings. There's no sparkly twilight nonsense there.

Try this idea:

Codex: Space Marines (Ultras and their successors)
Codex: Astartes vol I (Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Iron Hands, Whitescars and their successors)
Codex: Astartes vol II (Blood Angels, Salamanders, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists and their successors inc BT)
Codex: Imperial Guard
Codex: Sisters of Battle (including all the Ecclesiarchy stuff - frateris militia, priests, penitent engines, etc)
Codex: Imperium (Inquisitors, assassins, deathwatch, GKs, rogue traders, magos explorators, etc - the 'Big Book of Allies')

Codex: Chaos Space Marines
Codex: Daemons
Codex: Lost and the Damned (traitor guard + mutants and psykers)

Allow units from all 3 Chaos dexes to be used in the same army based on the general: The compulsary HQ (army general) and 2 troops must come from the same dex.
Second HQ can come from anywhere but may not have a higher ld than the general. Rest of troops can come from anywhere.
The first elite/FA/HS slot must be taken from the same dex as the general but subsequent ones can come from anywhere.
If the general has a mark of Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh/Tzeentch then everything else in the army must have either the same mark, mark of chaos undivided or no mark.
If the general has mark of choas undivided (for a lot of points) then you can take any combination of marks in the army.


Hey, there's no xenos at all but everybody else is happy

chromedog wrote:For 40k:

1. Blood Angels. Who needs sparkly Twilight marines? Or even worse, emo vampire marines?
2. Dark Angels. Oh no, half their brothers turned against them during the war. They are the HH in microcosm.
3. Space Wolves. Please. Drunken space vikings? Squat them.
4. Actually, make ALL marines into Ultramarines. Even if they are painted red (or green, or black or grey).
Leave the rest.

Fantasy:
Squat the lot.

Exterminatus the planet.

(I don't play fantasy, and don't even read the stuff.).

If you don't play it or like it, it needs to go?

Er, no?

I'm interested to see that people are putting LotD and cults into a number of different books. Missed opportunity there

I'll get back to that in a bit

I think my codex breakdown would follow most people's with a slight deviation with regards to Cults and Inquisitors

1. Codex : Space Marines
2. Codex : Forces of Man (including Guard, AdMec, Planetary defence (Arbites/PDF) and Traitor guard variants)
3. Codex : Ork clans
4. Codex : Chaos (Marines & demons)
5. Codex : Tau (with lots of extra alien allies; including pure Kroot forces)
6. Codex : Necrons
7. Codex : Eldar (all variations thereof)
8. Codex : Sisters

9. Codex : Cults. (What the hell is this?)

Rather than ramming Chaos/Stealer/LatD cults, rogue psykers, pirate gangs, Inquisitors, Grey Knights, Arbites, Rogue Traders, assassins, Deathwatch (etc. etc. etc.) into one (or more) of the other books, why not do something different with them all? Most of the units mentioned operate in small units or avoid an open battlefield unless forced to by circumstance. As such... make this a skirmish supplement that allows you to pit the Inquisition and their allies against the Cults they were designed to fight. Also allow the creation of skirmish forces from any other codex, with skill progression (with 40K pricing for skills/stats/equipment) so these experts can be ported across into a full battlefield. This would also allow for a character creation system that allows new characters to be made, much like the Apoc vechicle creation rules.

If you want to use the cults or Inquisition in a full 40k/Apocalypse sized battle they can be allied with some of the above books. Chaos cults/LotD can go with Codex : Chaos or the Renegade list in Codex : Forces of Man. Inquisition forces can go with any of the Imperium based lists... or even using an Inquisitor and retinue in a Chaos/Renegade list as a rogue.

Is there an option to just drop Fantasy and have 18 40k codexes? No? Well, I won't worry about Fantasy, because I don't play it.

1. Space Marines
2. Imperial Guard
3. Chaos Marines
4. Lost and the Damned
5. Orks
6. Tau
7. Necrons
8. Tyranids
9. Eldar

I think that gives a pretty good variety to the armies. I would look to design the armies to have some additional variety and allow some simple 'count as' swaps. For example, using LatD to 'count as' Genestealer Cults. Cultists are cultists. Psykers are psykers. The different is the Big Mutties could be some form of hybrid and the 'fast daemonic cavalry' count be genestealers. Also, Special Characters would 'open up' some alternate builds. I'd also look to include some themed and fluff armies in the books, even if they weren't that competitive a build. For example, allowing someone to field an all Kroot army out of the Tau book. Hey, if it's got negligible anti-tank and is going to struggle in some games, I'm okay with that. But, if someone really, really want to field their Kroot, they can outside of APOC.

If you expanded to 12 (which, Jervis has said before about 12 sounds right), I'd add:
10. Dark Eldar
11. Inquisition
12. Chaos Cult Armies


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Honestly?

Black Templars.

And I say that as a person with the beginnings of a Black Templar army and as someone who really likes the concept of 'Crusading Marines'.

As a Space Wolf player, I'd be okay with them becoming "grey, viking werewolf marines that are the same as all the others" if it meant GW did more for other armies. The differences between Black Templars or Space Wolves vs. Ultramarines (or even Blood Angels or Dark Angels) is a lot less than the difference between Marines and any other army.

But, Marines are the iconic image of 40k and carry the company. So, they're not going away. At least GW has started to make the spin-offs different enough to warrant a separate book (even if it's as ridiculous as wolves on wolves).

40k
1 - Codex Astartes: All of them, one book.
2 - Codex Ork: Including all clans and feral orks.
3 - Codex Eldar:
4 - Codex Imperial Guard: Including rules for various Guard regiments.
5 - Codex Chaos: Including all Legions, daemons and Lost and Damned armies. Return Chaos to a unified and utterly diverse army.
6 - Codex Tyranid: Including Hive Fleet variances and Genestealer Cults.
7 - Codex Tau: Including Kroot only armies.
8 - Codex Necrons: Necron armies of the C'tan.
9 - Codex Lords of the Imperium: Inquisition armies, SoBs, GKs and Rogue Trader expeditionary armies (alien mercs, mixed units).

Fantasy should not be condensed down, it has good variation in its armies (other than Chaos should be merged again, and 'daemon army' should become a sentence punishable by death in the design studio).

Alpharius wrote:

If you don't play it or like it, it needs to go?

Er, no?

You missed my point there, alphy.

Codexes/Army books that I would drop.
Not you.

I.
Me.
My opinion.

GW's board of directors annual financial statement as well.

Still, I'm not a mod, so my opinion must be wrong, eh?

40k:
Blue Sphess Mehreens
Red Sphess Mehreens
Green Sphess Mehreens
Black SPhess Mehreens
Light Blue SPhess Mehreens
ANGRY MARINES

Sorry...I'm simply sick of GW's favouring of Sphess Mehreens, so I'll be serious on the fantasy part.

-------------

1: Tomb Kings - Love the concept and fluff, probably my second army, and they are pretty old!

2: Empire - Kind of, sort of old, really cool army and versatile, would like to see it get a new book

3: Orcs & Goblins - Again, old-ish, have real problems regarding around animosity, I'd actually put them ahead of Empire, but I have a personal favorite towards the main antagonist towards my personal army - Beastmen.

4: Daemons of Chaos - Can't stand how terribly this book was written, needs a complete re-make. (This is in the thinking 8th edition isn't going to nerf them in some way, though I still stand by my decision)

5: Warriors of Chaos - Need some help, their either all-melee or all-magic. Also, Chaos Dwarfs SHOULD be implemented into the W.o.C book if they aren't planning on doing Chaos Dwarves on their own. Old-ish as well.

6: Vampire Counts - I don't like Invocation of Nehek in its current incarnation, it should be not past starting size, but may add one more unit for each model slayed by that unit, the number of model's raised directly proportional to unit strength.

7: Dark Elves - A personal favorite from the Drizzt Do'urden books (the best series of fantasy books ever written), and will be one of my armies in the future (far most likely). The question is : Do we tone these armies down (talking Vampire Counts and Dark Elves) or do we raise the other books up to this power level they are at?

8: High Elves - Pretty cool, like the fluff and all the versatility surrounding them.

9: Ogre Kingdoms/Wood Elves - Why not?

Hmm... I never did a Fantasy list:

1. High Elves
2. Dark Elves
3. Wood Elves
4. Beastmen
5. Daemons
6. Ogres
7. Skaven
8. Lizardmen
9. Empire

Hmmm... Fantasy
1. Warriors of Chaos
2. Skaven
3. Orcs and Goblins
4. Dinosaurs (that is, Lizardmen)
5. Dark Elves
6. Ogres
7. Empire
8. High Elves
9. Dwarfs (or is it Dwarves?)

I dont think any army is really worthy of being dropped.. but if I had to I'd drop Sisters as I have no love for them.

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:Hmmm... Fantasy
1. Warriors of Chaos
2. Skaven
3. Orcs and Goblins
4. Dinosaurs (that is, Lizardmen)
5. Dark Elves
6. Ogres
7. Empire
8. High Elves
9. Dwarfs (or is it Dwarves?)

Yes, you're quite right. Correct grammar would turn Dwarfs into Dwarves, but that is the power of GW.

On another note, I'm glad to see everyone keeping Tyranids and Lizardmen.

Tim the Biovore wrote:

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:
9. Dwarfs (or is it Dwarves?)

Yes, you're quite right. Correct grammar would turn Dwarfs into Dwarves, but that is the power of GW.

I think it was Tolkien who decided that the plural of Dwarf would be Dwarfs as opposed to Dwarves. He was quite fussy about it.

Shaman wrote:I dont think any army is really worthy of being dropped.. but if I had to I'd drop Sisters as I have no love for them.

It's not dropping an army it's whether they ought to have their own separate codex when entire swathes of the game are ignored from one edition to the next.

Necrons and DE are still on 3e codexes. The Tau codex is five years old this month. The Eldar book is 4e. Meanwhile, GW produce Space Marines, more Space Marines, and some more Space Marines.

While I am re-organising the armies into nine books, I will take the opportunity to reduce the amount of fluff to six pages, make the painting guide the same, and make the book smaller and cheaper. The leftover fluff will be re-printed with additions as supplements.

The rules will be laid out for quick and easy reference, to save that hassle of looking up three or four pages to find out a single unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Flashman wrote:

Tim the Biovore wrote:

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:
9. Dwarfs (or is it Dwarves?)

Yes, you're quite right. Correct grammar would turn Dwarfs into Dwarves, but that is the power of GW.

I think it was Tolkien who decided that the plural of Dwarf would be Dwarfs as opposed to Dwarves. He was quite fussy about it.

It's the other way around.

Traditional grammar is an unreliable guide.

Leaf => leaves.
Roof => roofs.

Nonetheless it always was Dwarf => dwarfs for the traditional fairytale creatures and persons of restricted growth.

Tolkien wanted a new image for his creatures, who are taller and stronger than traditional dwarfs or real life 'little people'. So he made a point of changing the plural to dwarves.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Hmm... I never did a Fantasy list:

1. High Elves
2. Dark Elves
3. Wood Elves
4. Beastmen
5. Daemons
6. Ogres
7. Skaven
8. Lizardmen
9. Empire

Why Beastmen #4? They got a new armybook 2 months ago.

@Karon: The order is simply the order in which I thought of them.

I really don't think Beastmen are neccesary. You could sneak a few units into the Warriors of Chaos army book and get away with.

Not sure why OP would drop space orcs and dark elves but keep space elves and space tomb kings.

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:I really don't think Beastmen are neccesary. You could sneak a few units into the Warriors of Chaos army book and get away with.

No.

They're two completely different armies. A few units? Beastmen are terribly diverse, and I hope you like lugging around a 200 page armybook...

Mmmm, Tzeentch Flying Circus w/ Cygor and a jabberslythe..yum.

Karon wrote:

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:I really don't think Beastmen are neccesary. You could sneak a few units into the Warriors of Chaos army book and get away with.

No.

They're two completely different armies. A few units? Beastmen are terribly diverse, and I hope you like lugging around a 200 page armybook...

Mmmm, Tzeentch Flying Circus w/ Cygor and a jabberslythe..yum.

But that's the whole point of chaos. It is diverse and its servants take many forms.

No, he has a point. Same goes with the SM Codices, they are diverse enough to have their own Codex. And even then, Beastmen are still more diverse than them.