Imperium of Man vs. United Federation of Planets

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**Necroman**

The Kirk thing is more of a joke.

Gorgarak wrote:"We have time travel" Which cannot be re-created reliably, frequently, and seems to only happen when freak occurances in the universe permits for an episode or two.

Actually, it is reliable (Due to incredibly bad script writing). However, time travel is Star Trek through that method is fething stupid, as it creates an alternate universe and leaves the original unchanged. Ergo, all the UFP accomplishes with time travel is running away.

But yeah, what advantages does the Imperium have?
-Numbers
-Industrial capacity
-Travel speed
-Firepower
-Numbers (Yes, I said it before, but seriously, the Imperium is HUGE compared to the UFP)
-Creed
-Doomsday devices
-Doctrine (Let's face it, the UFP are pansies when it comes to fighting a war)
-Land combat

What advantages does Star Trek have?
-Kirk
-Transporters
-Logic (Something the Imperium can be a bit short on)

Melissia wrote:Not to toot the Ultramarines Chapter horns (so to speak) or anything, but I think just that chapter alone could deal with the UFP. That chapter and the various Guard regiments that owe them their loyalty due to marny being the (sub?)sector governor basically.

Well, I could see them easily winning in an offensive war due to just having to bomb the crap out of UNSC planets.

Defensive? Much more difficult. Maybe they could.

**Frazzled**

And yet they can't beat Tau, or Demiurg, or DE. They can't improve their technology. Most of their worlds are craptacular backwards places unfit for humans here. Rule is barely maintained through a stalinist level of oppression on most worlds. Show the people an opportunity and everything changes. The UFP adapts, their imperium just loses worlds to...orks.

**Necroman**

Frazzled wrote:And yet they can't beat Tau, or Demiurg, or DE. They can't improve their technology. Most of their worlds are craptacular backwards places unfit for humans here. Rule is barely maintained through a stalinist level of oppression on most worlds. Show the people an opportunity and everything changes. The UFP adapts, their imperium just loses worlds to...orks.

Your problem there: Be specific.

How does the UFP "adapt?" Do they somehow just increase their industrial capacity a bajillion fold? Do they somehow make warp faster? Do they actually start a dedicated ground army, when they had no such thing in the past?

There are hundreds of billions of guardsmen. That's more than there are people in the entire UFP.

Also, the only reason the Imperium hasn't beaten the Tau is because they are distracted. The only reason they haven't beaten the Dark Eldar is that getting to their city is a bit hard. If the Imperium were to bring all of its forces to bear on the Tau, the Dark Eldar, or the Demiurg, it's hard to imagine them surviving for more than a few years.

**Melissia**

The reason Tau survived is because they're just not important enough.

**Frazzled**

Melissia wrote:The reason Tau survived is because they're just not important enough.

Exactly. Why do you think the UFP would be any different. Unlike the Tau, they aren't even trying to expand via conquering worlds. Witrh 10,000 more vicious threat vectors, the imperium wouldn't waste the time.

Substitute Dominion, or Romulans and the threat level goes substantially higher however. They're all about conquering other races.

**Necroman**

Speaking of the Tau... I could definitely see the Tau absorbing the UFP or vice versa. They both have similar beliefs, they both have a wide assortment of species, and they both are rather small.

Frazzled wrote:
Melissia wrote:The reason Tau survived is because they're just not important enough.

Exactly. Why do you think the UFP would be any different. Unlike the Tau, they aren't even trying to expand via conquering worlds. Witrh 10,000 more vicious threat vectors, the imperium wouldn't waste the time.

Substitute Dominion, or Romulans and the threat level goes substantially higher however. They're all about conquering other races.

So... The Imperium just ignores Starfleet then? I guess that just leaves it like the current situation with the Tau, as you said; if the UFP ever gets uppity, the Imperium will just send in forces to crush them.

Dominion are far more of a threat numberswise, but they still lack firepower (And are currently rebuilding after the war). Romulans? Too small, although they're sneaky.

**karimabuseer**

Btw guys. 40k lads CAN time travel. Not on purpose, of course. But the warp can frick up when they arrive

AND....A chaos legion learns of the UFP. Simply more cultists to them. Heck, the 9th Grand Host of word bearers (maybe the wrong numbered host) could corrupt the whole of the UFP. In Dark Creed they corrupt billions of guardsmen....by doing absolutely nothing. Just being there.

**Frazzled**

Imperium vs. UFP not chaos.

**Necroman**

For some odd reason, I really want to see the Tyranids invade the UFP.

Maybe it's just Schadenfreude.

**karimabuseer**

So...if it's only the imperium vs the UFP...they can crush them? It's Imperium vs UFP, not Imperium vs UFP and others. Imperium would win

**Melissia**

Yep . I'm not sure the UFP could survive in 40k even without the Imperium going after them. Nevermind if it was.

**Frazzled**

UFP would thrive. If they get into a necron tombworld and get that tech, in a decade or two they are invulnerable (or similarly get some nice eldar tech-all your secrets are belong to us!!!)

**Melissia**

Frazzled wrote:UFP would thrive. If they get into a necron tombworld and get that tech, in a decade or two they are

Dead from pissing off the Necrons and C'tan.

**Frazzled**

Melissia wrote:
Frazzled wrote:UFP would thrive. If they get into a necron tombworld and get that tech, in a decade or two they are
Dead from pissing off the Necrons and C'tan.

nah, same issue as the Imperium. Bigger fish to fry. The necrons appear to be gearing up for the big fight (those that can, the new BB showed them much more crapped out than their codex). PLus there are no tomb worlds in UFP space so no natural reason for them to appear.

**Melissia**

And if there are no tomb worlds, then there is no Necron tech for the UFP to make use of, so either way the example didn't work out did it?

The same argument could be applied to the Eldar tech, as well. Besides, they couldn't use Eldar tech anyway, except for maybe the simpler stuff.

**Frazzled**

Melissia wrote:

The same argument could be applied to the Eldar tech, as well. Besides, they couldn't use Eldar tech anyway, except for maybe the simpler stuff.

Other than their ships, weapons, and vehicles you're completely correct.

Actually I'd proffer the galaxy of 40K has much more to worry about in a crossover than StarTrek. Borg, all powerful energy beings that pop up with regularity, time travellers, a plethora of aggressive races not limited by the warp or its worries. Yea ha.

**Melchiour**

I dunno, I think UFP would stand a decent chance. They can more than outperform 40k in speed. Warp travel in Star Trek is in the thousands of times the speed of light. That and they don't have the habit of time passing in different lengths during travel. Hit and run attacks would be brutal. Also if they managed to somehow disable Terra and the Golden Throne no more warp travel for Imperium.

**Melissia**

Erm, no, quite a bit of Eldar technology relies on the fact that Eldar themselves are an entirely psychic race.

Also, the Inquisition deals with a borg-like threat in Dark Heresy, and has mostly kept it under control.

**Frazzled**

Melissia wrote:Erm, no, quite a bit of Eldar technology relies on the fact that Eldar themselves are an entirely psychic race.

Also, the Inquisition deals with a borg-like threat in Dark Heresy, and has mostly kept it under control.

Thats not correct for their fleet. thats not correct for their vehicles. Thats not correct for their weapons. They often channel warp energy as a power source, and some fo their materials are easily shaped psychically, but its all technology. In the First Happy Time (see who catches that reference) before Tau, before Necrons, Eldar were the technologically superior race in 40K.

**adam_gipson**

Star Control?

**Klawz**

Um, you mean the time inbetween man's rising and old one's falling?

**Frazzled**

Klawz wrote:Um, you mean the time inbetween man's rising and old one's falling?

Cold! getting Colder! involves a little bit of Terran naval history.

**Ribon Fox**

Earth, 1941/2, the Wolf packs and the trans atlantic convoys?

**Frazzled**

Ribon Fox wrote:Earth, 1941/2, the Wolf packs and the trans atlantic convoys?

**Kilkrazy**

Gorgarak wrote:I think everyone knows who would win the battle in the end. Fact is no one is ever gonna admit it. Whenever someone from the 40K side offers evidence of "hey, we have uncountable ships, men, military power, and technology that, while may not be as advanced as yours, it still is pretty close to par, and we pracitcally own the entire galaxy except for a few small areas" it gets counter argued with things like

"Kirk in invicible." He hasn't fought a space marine yet. Or a Nid. Or and eldar Exarch. Or really anything that would have him crushed, eaten and smashed to pieces in seconds. Only thing Kirk has fought is human sized and speed aliens that have claws and can't seem to best him in hand to hand combat. And Klingons. Neither of those have power armor.

"We have environment bombs." As someone has stated already, they dont have that technology anymore, it's dead.

"If kirk fought chuck norris and pirates, Kirk would obviously come out on top." I dont even need to point out how un-related this is.

"We have time travel" Which cannot be re-created reliably, frequently, and seems to only happen when freak occurances in the universe permits for an episode or two.

"The imperium would never notice the UFP! They'd be dead by the time they did" even though they notice tons of small races of creatures on new planets frequently which are put to the flame....and still alive, and still the majour military might in the Galaxy. And which many other races know not to provoke them unless they draw their fury, and be smashed.

Even Eldar, who can see the future, whos technology is vastly more advanced than the UFP and the imperium, don't mess with them. They pick small guerilla warfare battles and win small battles. However when drawn into major conflicts, they lose and then go off and cry about it. Wars of attrition is something the imperium CAN do. It's not something the UFP could do. The imperium has been at war constantly, and still is, for tens of thousands of years, and it STILL rules their known Galaxy, which is probably 100 times larger than the star trek sector. The feds rule a tiny little sector in their galaxy, and whenever war comes up they negotiate peace talks because they openly admit that they would lose too many men. It's a numbers game. And Feds come up short.

I don't understand how that can all be true yet the Imperium trembles on the edge of extinction.

**Ribon Fox**

Frazzled wrote:
Ribon Fox wrote:Earth, 1941/2, the Wolf packs and the trans atlantic convoys?

Yay for me

All that useless history that i like has paid off

**Gorgarak**

I don't understand how that can all be true yet the Imperium trembles on the edge of extinction.

Agreed, but its cause they have what...necrons, Orks, Chaos and Nids to contend with. Three Races which, as far as can be told, have limitless numbers at their hands. Imperium is too big...if they consolidated half of their space into a smaller area they would tactically be undefeatable. Problem is they hold key areas like the Cadian gate and fight off tyranid incursions from every angle in the galaxy, so they have to hold the posistions lest every other race in the galaxy die as well.

Don't get me wrong. Im no fan of the imperium. I play Xenos and always will. But in this area, i gotta give the imperium credit..they are, in this case, superior to UFP. At the very least in military power and what not. As far as science and stuff the UFP kicks the crap out of imperium. hands down.

**Kilkrazy**

But the Imperium wants every other faction in the galaxy to die.

So do the Eldar, the Orks, Chaos and the Necrons.

They should all be helping the Tyranids as much as they can.

**Nightsbane**

You can't ever have a real discussion about this topic...because trekkies always sniff their running noses, push up their broken glasses and tell you about the science of star trek being supreme to all. It doesn't matter if it is 40k, star wars, or something else you will always hear *sniff* genesis torpedo, lasers" *chuckle chuckle*

I say this with tender love, I am a huge star trek fan...but come on... Look at the canon, the feds have had near federation ending defeats to the klingons?!, the dominion, and the borg. ALL of these foes are worthless compared to one small contingent of space marines. Let the flesh tearer's loose on a galaxy class ship and the captain's log alone would be enough to make the federation surrender.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:But the Imperium wants every other faction in the galaxy to die.

So do the Eldar, the Orks, Chaos and the Necrons.

They should all be helping the Tyranids as much as they can.

not really...that's what the inquisition wants. Arguably the vision of the emperor was only to restore sundered worlds and live in peace. The xenophobia and general supremism came from the inquisition after the emperor fell, not the age of man itself.

**The Unending**

The fine people at factpile (a website that has actual debating rules for what is and isn't a logical fallacy) have already spoken on the matter.

http://www.factpile.com/warhammer-40k-vs-star-trek.htm/comment-page-1#comments

Highlights: Star Trek universe was a joke. The only defence they have is Q and even that is being debated saying the Chaos Gods would murdelize him (which they would)

Here we have the debating rules for Factpile for those who want to see them.

http://www.factpile.com/factpile-debating-rules.htm

if we want to have a serious debate I suggest we use them

edit: also i know this is IoM vs UFoP not 40K vs. ST but most of the discussion focused on IoM vs. UFoP so read through if you want details