Autoguns MIA?

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**Melissia**

The heavy stubber is not an autoweapon. It's a stub weapon. Autoguns are caseless weapons, while stubbers of all kinds aren't. That's really the only difference mind you, just clarifying that fact.

I always wondered why there wasn't a "Heavy autogun"....

**skysky**

I was just goofing off really with a munda type rule lol. Yes it would be terribly unbalanced, especially when you double tap, "Look my tac squad unoaded and fired 18 bolter rounds, 12 hits and 18 wounds" yeah I would be pretty unhappy if I was on the recieving end of that.

**Melissia**

Or worse. Look, my twenty battle sisters unloaded fourty bolter rounds. Hey, I got really lucky, 18 hits and 36 wounds!

6 of them don't allow armor saves!

**Scott-S6**

Belphegor wrote:In Rogue Trader (1st ed Wh40k, not the role-playing game), autoguns were basically lasguns with a 32 inch maximum range. This was changed to 24 inches in 2nd edition.
Another notable deviation in regards to small arms, boltgun shots had a 1/2 inch blast radius.

Which book are you getting this from? It's not RT.

**Kilkrazy**

The bolter is often thought of as being equivalent to the modern day 40mm grenade, although it has a much smaller throw weight.

The 40mm grenade round shoots fragments over an area.

However the problems of simulating this by giving every individual bolter a mini blast disc are obvious.

If people want to simulate such an effect they need to make a rule relating the number of bolters firing at a target to a variation in the blast marker size and strength.

For example.
Bolters
1-3 = small blast, S3
4-5 = small blast, S4
6-7 = large blast, S3
8-9 = large blast, S4
Something like that.

**Belphegor**

In response to Scott-S6:
Aah whoops, my bad. The years were causing me to overlap the Shotgun's blast profile with the Bolter.
Damn, thanks for pointing that out. Trivia banks corrected.

**Norade**

The Odessey wrote:Fluff wise here’s the basic overview with sources:
Las Weaponry- Heats up target using lasers
-Large ammo capacity, can be charged like a battery
-Cauterizes wounds, not a lot of bleeding- however can sever limbs similar to a cutting laser (Source-Gaunts Ghosts)
-No deviation of fire (accurate) its a beam of pure energy the only time it'll stop is if something is in the way.
-Hot shot packs. 1 full power blast (Omnibus and Gaunts Ghosts)
-Reliable, cheap and easy to produce
-Punches through flesh and bone. ITS A LASER

Solid Slug weapons Such as auto-weapons and slug style weaponry
-Stopping power, stopping power, stopping power. Nothing halts a charger like a pound of flying lead.
-Punishing rate of fire (referring to the Heavy Stubber here, as quoted from Codex:IG)
-Hard rounds cause massive wounds (like real bullets, they have a small entry hole and a LARGE exit)
-Can accept silencers (Gaunts Ghosts) and flash suppressers (snipers, last story in IG Omnibus)
-Cheap to produce
-Think modern weapons. Autoguns are old school.

You're missing lasguns making people's heads explode and limbs blow off and punching very large holes in people in many other books. In most books they can actually kill a space marine more easily than you would expect as well, the issue being the SM is killing them even faster.

**Ultrafool**

I always thought that lasguns were like the AK-47. Cheap, reliable, even the most backwards of people can use it, and there are many variations of it that can operate differently because so many armies have it and need it to function to there needs.

But the autogun, I don't know much about it. Although it does look like a m16.

**Melissia**

Actually the autogun is basically a caseless AK47 AFAIK.

The lasgun is even MORE reliable.

**Grey Templar**

What's the source on Auto weapons being caseless?

i have never seen evidence that they are and yet people claim they are.

**Melissia**

IIRC, it was either the Wargear book or third edition C:IG.

Basically the difference between Autoguns and Stubbers is whether or not it's caseless.

**CT GAMER**

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote:
NuggzTheNinja wrote:

The Bolter needs to be an assault weapon, the Lasgun needs to stay the same, and the Shoota needs to be S3.

What you just said was, "Space Marines need to be better, Orks need to be worse". I'm . . . not quite sure how to respond to that.

To be more accurate, Space Marines need a better Troops choice, while Orks could easily be more balanced with a less shooty troops choice.

I 'd love to have half the options tactical squads have for my boyz mobs...

Tactical squads are one of the best all-purpose units in the game and a rock solid troops choice. Solid stats and armour, access to range of heavy and special weaponry, multiple transport options , and all the marine bonuses thrown on top (ATSKNF, combat squads, etc.)

And if we want to start rearranging stats then when you drop shootas to S3 be sure to raise the ork's stength stat to 4 where it belongs...

**sebster**

Belphegor wrote:The 18-24" inch mark feels more like the end of the close quarter range rather than 12". I think having the design element for non-assault flat-shot weapons would allow for greater diversity of small arms. A sort of a light-heavy weapons. It would also give more of a reason to stray from the 6" range thresholds.
The increased functionality of units with alternate deployment and the inclusion of objectives serves the purpose of moving the shooters more than weapon type.

Nah, close quarters can only be considered in the sense of the tactical game, and that means units getting into assault range and double tapping their rapid fire weapons. There is no 'feel' for what 18-24" is in an in-game context, as there's no true scale in 40K.

I believe Rapid Fire should stay, as with Assault, Pistol & Heavy Weapons. I do think the system is missing a more Basic category that would allow more deviance for small arm design, outside of damage capability.

Except that you're basically looking to build an assault class of weapon without the ability to assault after firing. This can be achieved by giving the unit an assault weapon, and relying on the fact that they're really rubbish in assault to discourage them from assaulting after shooting.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Odessey wrote:Anything more on topic? For example any PROPOSED RULES for the autoguns. I think counting them as lasguns is a half-assed solution, if you'll excuse me.

No, it isn't a half-assed solution. It's recognising that a game can be negatively impacted by the drive to distinguish every variant weapon. At the level of detail recognised by 40K there is no meaningful difference between a lasgun and an autogun.

It's a really big design consideration that most people completely ignore - will this rule change produce a more interesting tactical game?

**Scott-S6**

There's already too much pointless diferentiation of weapons in 40K imo. (bloodstrike missiles? they couldn't have just had one of the three different aircraft missile already in use?)

Lasguns and autoguns are essentially indistinguishable. The primary difference is in the support logistics, something that's not taken into account in 40K at all.

**Rinkydink**

Melissia wrote:I always wondered why there wasn't a "Heavy autogun"....

...There is an autocannon however.

**Melissia**

Which isn't a heavy autogun in the same vein of the heavy stubber and heavy bolter.

**Belphegor**

to sebster, on Basic class weapons:
I still feel it's missing though for primitive style weapons wielded by those who are not pants in melee. Think mutants with muskets and warriors with heavy crossbows, things that are getting a limited number of shots, that are not run-and-gun and would be a liability in assault.
- Keep in mind, it's not like I would except the mainline armies to be toting these weapons, rapid fire works much better in almost every case. A hammered out mechanical option would be nice for renegades, daemon worlds & the occasional xenos.

to sebster, on close quarters:
I guess the context for the close quarters firefight, for me, is the range where melee assault is not quite possible but maintains it's threat. The 12 inch band seems more like point-blank, due to how fast units are compared to the number of shots get fired. If movement/charging was base: 4", I would completely agree with you.

**Melissia**

Regarding muskets: So make them Heavy 1. Reloading and firing those things couldn't exactly be done on the move.

**MenOfTanith**

The Odessey wrote:
Solid Slug weapons Such as auto-weapons and slug style weaponry
-Stopping power, stopping power, stopping power. Nothing halts a charger like a pound of flying lead.
-Hard rounds cause massive wounds (like real bullets, they have a small entry hole and a LARGE exit)
-Can accept silencers (Gaunts Ghosts) and flash suppressers (snipers, last story in IG Omnibus)
-Think modern weapons. Autoguns are old school.

OLD SCHOOL FOR THE WIN
BRING BACK BULLETS !!!!

**sebster**

Belphegor wrote: to sebster, on Basic class weapons:
I still feel it's missing though for primitive style weapons wielded by those who are not pants in melee. Think mutants with muskets and warriors with heavy crossbows, things that are getting a limited number of shots, that are not run-and-gun and would be a liability in assault.
- Keep in mind, it's not like I would except the mainline armies to be toting these weapons, rapid fire works much better in almost every case. A hammered out mechanical option would be nice for renegades, daemon worlds & the occasional xenos.

I don't know man, I think if a unit is decent in melee you'll see them running and assaulting whenever possible and just not firing their primitive weapons.

to sebster, on close quarters:
I guess the context for the close quarters firefight, for me, is the range where melee assault is not quite possible but maintains it's threat. The 12 inch band seems more like point-blank, due to how fast units are compared to the number of shots get fired. If movement/charging was base: 4", I would completely agree with you.

Fair point, the 12" band seemed a lot bigger back in 2nd ed when a move was typically 4" and a charge was 8". That said, I think we're at a point where the number of shots fired/number of hits/number of hits that wound pretty much does not make sense. Nor does the amount of distance able to be travelled between shots. We're basically left with accepting the whole thing as an abstract concept, with no individual move simulating anything in particular.

**The Odessey**

Melissia wrote:IIRC, it was either the Wargear book or third edition C:IG.

Basically the difference between Autoguns and Stubbers is whether or not it's case less.

Ok.... looking at the Codex: Imperial Guard on my nightstand (the old codex and old Wargear book, 4th ed? 3rd? IDK) shows the autogun's clip as a clip with 12 rounds of ammunition that look just like modern ammo, brass cases and all. Plus the illistration of the IG Engineer/Special Weapons troop states that he has an Autopistol in a holster. The holster has bullets in cases on the side.... I as far as I can discern.

Here I thought that the Auto meant that the pistol/rifle was an autoLOADER, not that the bullets/projectiles fired on their own accord.

**ThatMG**

I Made this from DOW II / Gray Knight Book

Autoguns: R: 12, S: 3, AP: -, Type: Assault 3

The idea is that they use number of shots + number of people in the squad to overcome the enemies armor
rather than penatration.

Pistol are assault 2 (due to smaller mag) but have the pistol type so gain the bonus to attack
it says in the pistol weapon type they count as assault 1 unless stated otherwise. This is overwise.

squad is 10-30

point per cultist is 6-8