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Theyre girls? Horse faces with pageboy haircuts do not make them a "girly army" to me!

Maybe if they were malibu barbie with bolters and furry boots Id consider them too girlish.. They do seriously need new models

All of the "expansion team" (Tau, necron, DE, WH and DH) armies suffer more or less the same problems.. Lack of diversity and barely updated rules. Tau atleast got a 4th ed codex (not huge changes but changes none the less) but I think every army should be able to shoot and do CC for variety purposes

Even IG can kick some ass in CC with blob squads, commissars and straken

The core armies (Marines, chaos, eldar, IG, nids and orks) all are very multi-faceted, dynamic and interesting... You'll see lots of different builds that can actually do average. Id be surprised if I saw more than 2 different builds for the expansion teams that do "average".. However, they are plenty of builds that lose horribly. Variety makes the armies in the "core" group so much more fun to play (eldar however is really only in the core group because its been around forever.. its variety is sorely lacking)

I foresee a stand alone GK codex either being another SPESS MAHREENS BUT MORE! codex or low model count from high point cost making it uncompetitive.

Luke_Prowler wrote:I foresee a stand alone GK codex either being another SPESS MAHREENS BUT MORE! codex or low model count from high point cost making it uncompetitive.

Low model count doesn't have to be uncompetitive. They just have to make up for lack of models with appropriate badassery.

Melissia wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:I foresee a stand alone GK codex either being another SPESS MAHREENS BUT MORE! codex or low model count from high point cost making it uncompetitive.

Low model count doesn't have to be uncompetitive. They just have to make up for lack of models with appropriate badassery.

And that's normally true, when you have cases like Vanilla marines vs 'nids. However, you get to a point were the number of wounds you can throw out can't catch up to cost of the unit. Let's assume that GKs are still 25 each (except the Justicar, who are now a modest 30). A full 10 unit is 255 (baring any upgrades). Against Orks in the shooting phase, they can kill 6-7 orks. that's 36-42 points back. 23 Orks shoot back. 2-3 dead grey knights, 50-75 points back. Even worse, high cost means less points for specialized units who could handle more dangerous foes. Now obviously, balance can still be achieved, but there's a good chance that they'll have a hard time fighting

Artificer armour man, it's the future (or, considering 40k's fluff... the past?).

Re: Sisters dying horribly, there's that short story in Heroes of the Space Marines, the one where they teamed up with the Black Templars.

CT GAMER wrote:
SOB are most likely gonna go the way of LATD and Genestealer cult, and even if they dont I expect they will get shoehorned into a new =I= codex.

No thanks GW, I'm sick of waiting to be let down and have started selling off my SOB collection...

huh. Hadn't even thought of this possibility. What the hell would I DO with all those sororitas if they got Squat'ed? I suppose i could fold them into the ranks of my IG, but that's a lot of counts as bolters for flashlights. And I have shovelfuls of IG. Suggestions?

Count as tac squads in a SM army.

Hmmmm. As a last resort mebbe.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:An Allies supplement along the same vein as Apoc/CoD/Battle Missions/Planetstrike would be a good idea actually.

It creates a sub-game and an optional set of rules for allowing the mixing of armies and allied units.

that would be a good place to put

- vast imperial forces led by Inquisitors
- rules for combining real daemons with chaos marines (and maybe latd making a return)
- expanded harlequin forces working with either eldar or de
- kroot mercs working with either orks or tau
- expanded alien races for tau

nids and necrons get left out in the cold though

This is a great idea! For Eldar you could also add Exodites and Corsairs, too. 'nids could get genestealer cults and something similar could be created for Necrons. Like groups that have been duped by the Deciever into rebellion, only to be betrayed by the Necrons later. Neither cult would truly be an "ally", but the allied models wouldn't know they're going to get eaten until after the battle.

This would be a great foundation for the much-desired 40K Dogs of War.

As for changes to upcoming model lines, whenever my favorite lines get redone I always want good models first and good rules (meaning fun and balanced, not over-powered) second, good prices third. Not much else really matters to me after that. Getting upset about the army's backstory is about as baffling to me as being upset about the painting on the cover of their codex.

grizgrin wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:
SOB are most likely gonna go the way of LATD and Genestealer cult, and even if they dont I expect they will get shoehorned into a new =I= codex.

No thanks GW, I'm sick of waiting to be let down and have started selling off my SOB collection...

huh. Hadn't even thought of this possibility. What the hell would I DO with all those sororitas if they got Squat'ed? I suppose i could fold them into the ranks of my IG, but that's a lot of counts as bolters for flashlights. And I have shovelfuls of IG. Suggestions?

For every army not yet released, expect someone to tell you that this army will get squatted. But it won't. Sororitas will come ... in a separate Codex ... started by Andy Hoare and taken over by someone else ... as confirmed by GW on a GD.

Nice i guess.
Was there talk of what would happen to the Inquisition?

The Inquisition isn't an army it is a way of combining various allied forces together.

The proposed Allies codex would be the place to put this.

The problem when combining forces is that each separate army is supposed to have weaknesses to offset its strengths. If you are able to combine allies which cover each others' weaknesses you end up with a super army.

So an Inquisitor list needs careful design to stop it being too powerful.

I see where your coming from.
Is that why they stopped dogs of war in fantasy?

I don't really want my 1st army to be invalidated...

Kilkrazy wrote:The Inquisition isn't an army it is a way of combining various allied forces together.

The proposed Allies codex would be the place to put this.

The problem when combining forces is that each separate army is supposed to have weaknesses to offset its strengths. If you are able to combine allies which cover each others' weaknesses you end up with a super army.

So an Inquisitor list needs careful design to stop it being too powerful.

I see where you are coming from but isn't the purpose of allies to offset known weaknesses with strengths brought in from an allied force.

And also the 2nd ed SoB dex mentioned that the Sisters have several very obvious weaknesses written in so you would ally to offset that.
Hardly a way to attract potential buyers, but none the less, that is what GW thought at the time.

Which is why they gave Marines artillery and heavy tanks, the purview of the Guard?

VikingScott wrote:Nice i guess.
Was there talk of what would happen to the Inquisition?

Other than what Melissia and me posted on the first page? No.

There have been far, far fewer inquisition rumors, than Sisters rumors or Grey Knights rumors. As far as from the most reliable sources go, what I've heard leaves two possibilities:

WH and DH codices with a focus on the Sisters and Grey Knights, no allies rules, and little expansion for the Inquisition
(this seems unlikely given the most recent rumors)

Sisters and Grey Knights codices, and an Inquisition supplement.
(this seems most likely, but we don't quite know yet)

Kettu wrote:

I see where you are coming from but isn't the purpose of allies to offset known weaknesses with strengths brought in from an allied force.

And also the 2nd ed SoB dex mentioned that the Sisters have several very obvious weaknesses written in so you would ally to offset that.
Hardly a way to attract potential buyers, but none the less, that is what GW thought at the time.

Sadly the current ally rules don't do it that well for WH that is. IG plug a hole with allying DH in. Space Marines gain nothing from allying WH and they can plug the same hole as IG do for allying DH in. Guard models will be taking away points that matter for the strength of Sisters as the more guard I field the less Sisters I'll be fielding. It then becomes a point where I should just field a guard army, if I am throwing down more guard models than Sisters.

For the record everybody could ally in 2nd edition. In fact a percentage of points was allocated for such in every codex.

Defiler wrote:It seems to me that all the recent sister threads have erupted in pseudo-flamewars.

And what is the common thread?....

Sisters are big on fire, so flame is expected.

How many points for "Melissa"?

Anyhow, does anybody have actual 40k release data to share?!?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Defiler wrote:It seems to me that all the recent sister threads have erupted in pseudo-flamewars.

And what is the common thread?....

Sisters are big on fire, so flame is expected.

How many points for "Melissa"?

Anyhow, does anybody have actual 40k release data to share?!?

Stop trying to end a perfectly good slap party with your requests for "facts."

Melissia wrote:The martyr theme has led to the majority of Sisters fluff being effectively "a bunch of sisters die here, and then a bunch of sisters die there, and they never win any battles".

That does not attract new players to the army.

Assuming, of course, that said new players are in it for the fluff and not for some other reason.

Also, some of these rumors go against some of the others who mentioned a couple of inquisitors who might be included. However, it's all just hearsay anyway, isn't it?

Melissia wrote:The same argument could be made for Necron rules, Sisters metal miniatures and outdated rules, and Grey Knights outdated rules (strangely, GK players seem to prefer metal models...).

To clarify,I wouldn't say that GK players prefer metals,because me and the others that I know have played the army prefer plastics,and I'm very much looking forward to some new plastic GK stuff. However,I don't mind the metal so much because typical 2k GK list was 1 GM w/7-man retinue in a LRC,a 5 man GK Termie squad in a regular LR,a Dread,and 2 10 man GK squads(one may have been a short squad of 9,it's been awhile). When you throw that few mini's out on the table,well,metal just doesn't matter as much. Outdated rules have gotten me away from playing them,though.

puma713 wrote:Assuming, of course, that said new players are in it for the fluff and not for some other reason.

Quite a few people are. Others are attracted to the models, but don't want to paint metal. Others are attracted to the rules, but they're getting weaker as each new fifth edition codex is released (because everything else is getting stronger while they sit in limbo).

All of these things can be rectified. Plastic models, new fluff that doesn't make them complete losers, and new rules which compete with fifth edition-- how much would this improve their profitability? Quite a bit, I imagine, but then that's not a very high hurdle to jump.

I'd prefer a slight redesign (of just the chest and abdomen) portion myself to make it look more like platemail. Would make it look less like they're wearing their underwear outside of their armor.

Plus, the metal GK models look really cool.

Melissia wrote:There's also a lot of people waiting for plastic Sisters in order to get into the army, too.

You can't really judge Sisters very well, because let's face it-- the second edition codex was at the end of second edition, and didn't have time to get any real following before third edition came out. The third edition Sisters codex was a half-assed, craptacular codex whose primary selling attribute (listed on the first page in fact) was that it could be combined with other armies-- not its own list, not its own fluff, not its own models. They have gotten almost no fluff that actually paints them as an army that wins battles, and they have very little variety in official paint schemes.

GW has done a piss-poor job of giving the army a chance to grow, so it's impossible to argue either way. I, for example, can only argue that there will be more people who are into the army when it's plastic than when it's metal, because most people prefer plastic. I can't argue whether or not they'll be into the fluff, because quite frankly the fluff isn't all that good. I like the army as a concept, but the fluff from GW and BL depicts the army as one that always loses, gets wiped out, or falls to chaos (even though they're supposed to be resistant to that!).

The Sisters need a re-imagining as far as their fluff goes. The martyrdom aspect hasn't worked out at all, quite frankly an army of martyrs isn't going to appeal to many people. An army of holy soldiers-- emphasizing BOTH of those words, the holy aspect AND the soldier aspect-- I think would get more people into the army.

Well,I haven't touched my WH/SoB in probably going on 5 years now,but I'm definately waiting on platics to try and fix it into a playable army that actually has a snowball's chance of winning. No,I didn't do 'mech SoB's,which is pretty much the only way you could ever play them.

To me,it wasn't so much the combined forces aspect. It was that the entire army list was pretty much based around dice luck. Every game of 40k is somewhat based around dice luck,but it's magnified in the case of the WH's 'dex. You have models like the Exorcist which are ridiculously awesome if you roll a 6 for their number of shots,but then stink if you drop a 1. You've got spontaniously combusting Arco's. So much of your strategy revolves around whether you can hit this "coin flip" roll to get an Act of Faith off. "Sorry Sister Sarah,you just didn't pray to the Emperor enough today,so now your whole squad is doomed!" The whole randomness of the army just really did not work for me at all as a concept. It sounded fun,but never really worked out all that well for me.

They definately need to be reimagined,and not just from a fluff standpoint,either. The SoB are depicted,to a certain extent,the Chicago Cubs of 40k,but the way faith works in their game mechanics just work well. They have power armor and bolters...but they sit around waiting for divine intervention in order to win. Seriously? An army just doesn't seem terribly cool if it needs 6-7 minor miracles to win a small battle. Faith is a big part of the SoB,but it needs to implemented throughout the army list in a better fashion,IMO. I think that would do a whole lot more to attract people to the army than fluff depictions of Kharne the Betrayer lying prostrate before a Cannoness,licking her boots and begging for mercy before she curb stomps him into oblivion.

I agree that the army list needs to be reworked to be more effective, but the army DOES need to be depicted as winning battles occasionally in order to attract people from a fluff standpoint. If the army's always losing, why play it?

It goes with how they're building the fifth edition codices, too: Aggrandizing the fluff of the factions.

Whatever1 wrote:

To me,it wasn't so much the combined forces aspect. It was that the entire army list was pretty much based around dice luck. Every game of 40k is somewhat based around dice luck,but it's magnified in the case of the WH's 'dex. You have models like the Exorcist which are ridiculously awesome if you roll a 6 for their number of shots,but then stink if you drop a 1. You've got spontaniously combusting Arco's. So much of your strategy revolves around whether you can hit this "coin flip" roll to get an Act of Faith off. "Sorry Sister Sarah,you just didn't pray to the Emperor enough today,so now your whole squad is doomed!" The whole randomness of the army just really did not work for me at all as a concept. It sounded fun,but never really worked out all that well for me.

They definately need to be reimagined,and not just from a fluff standpoint,either. The SoB are depicted,to a certain extent,the Chicago Cubs of 40k,but the way faith works in their game mechanics just work well. They have power armor and bolters...but they sit around waiting for divine intervention in order to win. Seriously? An army just doesn't seem terribly cool if it needs 6-7 minor miracles to win a small battle. Faith is a big part of the SoB,but it needs to implemented throughout the army list in a better fashion,IMO.

This thread is far from rumors now, but...

I disagree. Sisters are not random if you play them right. No more than guard with orders or necrons with WBB or any psychic army with psychic tests. The key to faith is knowing which powers work for which size units. Sure, if you run 7-8 girl units and try to make a faith check you are just asking to fail. But if you run small units who want to be invulnerable and large units that want to ignore armor, you will succeed. Thinking is as big a part of SoB as luck.

Sisters need an update, sure... But damn, look back at some of the quotes in this thread. You'd think that SoB were the bastard step-children of satan himself. People need to chill on the hyperbole. Making yourself a Martyr for the SoB cause does not get them updated any faster.

An amusing play on words, but I was hardly speaking in hyperbole when I said the Sisters aren't really allowed to win in the fluff.

And his complaint about the Exorcist is valid I think. Considering that's pretty much our only HS choice that's worth taking. Acts of Faith probably need to be simplified, probably into something closer to Orders if my guess is right. Dunno what GW will do-- I don't mind them how they are now, but I know people have complained. But then people always complain.

Melissia wrote:An amusing play on words, but I was hardly speaking in hyperbole when I said the Sisters aren't really allowed to win in the fluff.

No, you kind of are. Hyperbole: extravagant exaggeration.
Codex: WH
P27, successful suppression of heretics without loss of Canoness.
P47, the Celestine Crusade 'Hundreds of thousands of heretics met a fiery end at the hands of her armies' (edit: enemies was funnier)

I just spent two minutes in the Codex and found exceptions to your rules. And don't give me 'But Celestine died...' of course she did. Everyone dies.

And his complaint about the Exorcist is valid I think. Considering that's pretty much our only HS choice that's worth taking.

Sure, the Exorcist is Random. So is a Lascannon Predator, or a Vindicator. They just happen to be three different kinds of random.

But then people always complain.

I completely agree.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and Armageddon wasn't a total loss. After initial loss (who didn't lose initially at Armageddon), they were instrumental in winning.

Armageddon wrote:
With the massive destruction at Tempestora, reminiscent of the Tyranids' destruction of the Ultramarines at Ultramar, the Order of Our Martyred Lady was devastated and left with less than three companies upon Armageddon. The loss of Tempestora's Sanctorum devastated the morale of the Sisterhood, and they fought to recover from such a dishonor. Though they lost greatly at the beginning of the campaign, their aid was essential in the final defense of the planet.[6]

On the other side of Armageddon, the Order of the Argent Shroud, with its five companies under the leadership of Canoness Carmina, were used by General Kurov in the Fire Deserts during the war. They later joined with their fellow Sisters to retake the Holy Sanctorum and restore their lost honor.