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AlexHolker wrote:

BrookM wrote:Sounds pretty broken to me then.

No, it's not. Or at least, not based on what has been posted here. Just because playing it wrong makes the game take an obnoxiously long time does not make it broken. I imagine Civilisation 4 would take even longer if you tried to do all the calculations yourself, but that's why you let the computer do all the number crunching. In 2010, when every nerd and his dog owns a laptop, a hybrid game like this might actually be feasible.

Civilization 4 never tried to sell itself as a miniature wargame. If I'm already dragging around a bag full of minis to play a game, I'd prefer to not have to also bring my laptop case as well.

augustus5 wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

BrookM wrote:Sounds pretty broken to me then.

No, it's not. Or at least, not based on what has been posted here. Just because playing it wrong makes the game take an obnoxiously long time does not make it broken. I imagine Civilisation 4 would take even longer if you tried to do all the calculations yourself, but that's why you let the computer do all the number crunching. In 2010, when every nerd and his dog owns a laptop, a hybrid game like this might actually be feasible.

Civilization 4 never tried to sell itself as a miniature wargame. If I'm already dragging around a bag full of minis to play a game, I'd prefer to not have to also bring my laptop case as well.

Exactly. When I play a game I'd prefer to just use minis and dice, not lug along a laptop or power up the PC.

And a thousand pardons for the horrible post, another thousand for any horrible offence that caused your facepalm.

With the software and how it works, this almost seems to be aimed a little more towards the D&D crowd. For years, DMs have been running games and battles doing the calcs and dice roles behind the scenes on a laptop while having the actual battle mat and models out for the other players to use, so it may be a fairly natural transition for them. For me, meh...I like rolling my dice and not having to go back to a computer screen.

As for the models, I'm a sucker for the whole armored archangel thing so they get a +1 there. I like most of the cavalry models and the monks, but the rest are pretty bleh to me.

The mention of the calculators and spreads reminds me of Inquisitor. Oh boy.

A lot of people have asked why?

Why not make it pure mini's game?
Why not make it a computer game?
Why can't I (insert low level game mechanic here)

The more relevant question is, can a game be made that merges a computers processing power, with the immersiveness of a table top war game. More importantly, can this game deliver a fun experience while also providing depth of strategy and several tactical answer. My informed opinion ( informed because I've played the game and exposed several other players to the game who subsequently enjoyed it) is yes. At the end of the day, isn't that the most important criteri by which to judge a game.

Personally, as IT'er I'd like to distance myself from those infernal machines when I play table top games.

BrookM wrote:Personally, as IT'er I'd like to distance myself from those infernal machines when I play table top games.

I can honor that standpoint. At the same time, you could probly concede that it is POSIBLE bastion may have made a dope game for people who don't share that bias.

Ex-illis will be around for a while. If you ever change your mind about processors in gaming and give it a shot, you may be pleasantly surprised at how cool the game experience actually is.

I can see the pros and cons to both systems - traditional and tech-assisted.

On one side, Rulebooks are just so reliable. They don't need power, they won't crap out for no reason when you need them, rules will always say the same thing and be in the same place for each person using it, and they aren't as fragile as a laptop. Plus, if you spill something on a rulebook (And let's face it - EVERYONE knows a "I can't stop knocking stuff over!" gamer), a couple towels and some time in front of a fan and it's good as new.

On the other hand, Laptops are faster - you can usually type a keyword or page number into most .pdf programs and it'll bring up what you're looking for. It isn't much bigger than a BRB or BGB rulebook, you can have music while you game, it has a calc for points and whatnots, and you can look at pr0n while you play. Hey, don't look at me like I'm the only one that thought of that while reading this thread

I guess Exillis would be better off catering to both sides - If players had the choice of hardcover rulebooks and referance sheets -or- bringing their laptop, then I think a lot of concerns would've been nullified.

You are a wild man... Porn while gaming. Thats... Thats.... Hmmmm anyway.

You would have to be SUPER patient or a mensa member to play this game without the software.

There are just too many things to calculate on a turn by turn basis to calculate manually AND keep the game fun. Unless math Is your porn, manual calculation is NOT the way to go.

A small example. After you take an action and before the next turn can be take ( in other words, in between action)
you would have to calculate the action point accumulation for every active unit, calculate the fatigue loss of the activated unit, determin via ACP which unit activates next, calculate all passive effects, such as the marrenes refreshing pressence or the soffrances' dark pressence. Determine all vallid actions for the acailable units, determine new hp, fatigue etc for all units based on buff.and debuff spells etc

Qnd thats just between taking turns. Not fun to me.

Maelstrom808 wrote:With the software and how it works, this almost seems to be aimed a little more towards the D&D crowd. For years, DMs have been running games and battles doing the calcs and dice roles behind the scenes on a laptop while having the actual battle mat and models out for the other players to use, so it may be a fairly natural transition for them. For me, meh...I like rolling my dice and not having to go back to a computer screen.

As for the models, I'm a sucker for the whole armored archangel thing so they get a +1 there. I like most of the cavalry models and the monks, but the rest are pretty bleh to me.

I've been DMing games for over twenty years and have never brought a laptop into play. D&D just isn't complex enough to need even a calculator.

MadNes wrote:...You would have to be SUPER patient or a mensa member to play this game without the software.
...

Evidently you underestimate the number of mensa members and potential members on this site, or you overestimate the difficulty level of the cals. I doubt it's the calc's.

I think that base is brilliant and given that some demon will be on it then shouldn't the blobby look to it indicate that it could be a river of lava.

It seems to me that the base should be painted to show the fires of hell and the souls of the damned trying to get out. They are the souls of the damned trying to claw their way out, that's why they have no faces, that's why they have three fingers - they're not humans and they don't really have true physical forms.

Good point about angels and entrails though maybe these angels do eat, the rest of the comments here seem churlish.

grizgrin wrote:

MadNes wrote:...You would have to be SUPER patient or a mensa member to play this game without the software.
...

Evidently you underestimate the number of mensa members and potential members on this site, or you overestimate the difficulty level of the cals. I doubt it's the calc's.

I think you over estimate how many people want to turn their gaming experience into a excersize in math, genious or not. But if you're keen to try it go head. All the info is on the wiki, go to town.

As far as the souks go - I was wondering upon having a sefond look, are the. Souls trying to escape the pit, or being sucked into it like water down a drain?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cadbren wrote:

Good point about angels and entrails though maybe these angels do eat,.

They do indeed. They take a really different spin on Angels and Demons in this game. I'm yet to understand how celestial beings like Angels can die at all. But Bastion is usually pretty consistent with their fluff, so I'm sure when all the inner workings are revealed it will make sense. For those of you interested, here is a link to the Bio of Lucifer, a playable character in the game. It sheds quite a bit of light on how God, Angels, Fallen Angels, Demons and humans are all intertwined.

Please be advised, the wiki is still in beta mode. There will be gramatical and spelling errors... Get over it and enjoy the story
http://ex-illis.com/wikien/Lucifer

MadNes wrote:

grizgrin wrote:

MadNes wrote:...You would have to be SUPER patient or a mensa member to play this game without the software.
...

Evidently you underestimate the number of mensa members and potential members on this site, or you overestimate the difficulty level of the cals. I doubt it's the calc's.

I think you over estimate how many people want to turn their gaming experience into a excersize in math, genious or not. But if you're keen to try it go head. All the info is on the wiki, go to town.

Evidently you totally missed the point of my post. I made NO claims as to who might or might not want to crunch the numbers by hand. I merely question your mensa assesment.

MadNes wrote:As far as the souks go - I was wondering upon having a sefond look, are the. Souls trying to escape the pit, or being sucked into it like water down a drain?

I'm not sure they're doing either. The last time I saw someone in that pose, it was moments after they had boasted about how much tequila they could drink.

JOHIRA wrote:

MadNes wrote:As far as the souks go - I was wondering upon having a sefond look, are the. Souls trying to escape the pit, or being sucked into it like water down a drain?

I'm not sure they're doing either. The last time I saw someone in that pose, it was moments after they had boasted about how much tequila they could drink.

And then for some reason melted.

Just picked up similar thread on other Popular forum... and a couple intervenients were the same and the content was almost a mirror of what happened at dakka... OP posting this bases is better than sliced bread then regulars telling base was NOT good and then some strange defensive comments.
Its all good folks but a bit of word of advice to the people making this Exlillis net campaign... Instead of trying to convince/ confront the general opinion why not actually read the comments and try to improve sculpts/casts? Would be a win win situation.
I kind of feel disapointed when a new company starts up with the nose so high up... Unless you are a big shark on the pool that can aford to piss potential clients you really should just listen and be abit more friendly... Look at rackham as a example of what you should not do please.

Not sure how you want me to improve stuff... i don't make it. I'm just a fan.

And as far as I can tell, non of my post have been rude or directed at someone personally. I'm making points and rebuttles.... You know, expressing a dissenting opinion.

I'm not affiliated in anyway with Ex Illis either, I just don't feel that it is justified to rip into a company using evidence that is obviously false. To be honest I've only looked at their stuff a couple times. Richard Coeur de Lion is the only one associated with Ex Illis and his posts weren't all that aggressive, he only rebutted the "mono-pose" "lacking detail" arguments. I'm sure everyone has their opinions, but in most cases it's best not to get too heated about them (me included).

Lord-Ironfist UNA wrote:. Richard Coeur de Lion is the only one associated with Ex Illis and his posts weren't all that aggressive, he only rebutted the "mono-pose" "lacking detail" arguments. I'm sure everyone has their opinions, but in most cases it's best not to get too heated about them (me included).

Specially if you want to introduce a new game and company... I'd say if associated people or diehard fans lack the capacity of delivering a enjoyable and unagressive Introduction to their new games then its better to just let the product speak for itself

Believe it or not I'm trying to help.

MadNes wrote:

BrookM wrote:Personally, as IT'er I'd like to distance myself from those infernal machines when I play table top games.

I can honor that standpoint. At the same time, you could probly concede that it is POSIBLE bastion may have made a dope game for people who don't share that bias.

Ex-illis will be around for a while. If you ever change your mind about processors in gaming and give it a shot, you may be pleasantly surprised at how cool the game experience actually is.

Having seen the demo on the site I can't help but wonder why bother with minis when the program does everything for you, except moving the minis. It's one step away from something like Heroes of Might and Magic and the likes. You just move about and that's it, all the other interactive stuff has been taken out already.

The demo is a BAD representation of actual gameplay. Look, as war gamer (ex-illis is not the ONLY game I play, its my favorite game) I would not enjoy a game that plays me. I need a game that gives me real meaningful tactical options, real decisions to make. Ex gives me that in spades. As an added bonus, it removes the aspects of wargaming I don't like much.

Could list them, but I doubt you want to read them.

@ Navarro - I was under the impression you and I were having a good gentlemen's debate. I'm unaware of an inflamatory statement I've made. You should also know, Dakka is infamous for being one of the "flamiest" boards.
I'm sure you can understand how it can be... Challenging to maintain a cool head when your getting dogpiled. Thus far, I've been doing OK.

Anyway - here is my opinion - the base is a good starting place for a what could be a great model, that can make an awesome addition to a fantastic game.

The monster that goes on this base could be so mind-blowing as to render all of this teeth gnashing so much yelling in the wind!

Let's hope so!

augustus5 wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:With the software and how it works, this almost seems to be aimed a little more towards the D&D crowd. For years, DMs have been running games and battles doing the calcs and dice roles behind the scenes on a laptop while having the actual battle mat and models out for the other players to use, so it may be a fairly natural transition for them. For me, meh...I like rolling my dice and not having to go back to a computer screen.

As for the models, I'm a sucker for the whole armored archangel thing so they get a +1 there. I like most of the cavalry models and the monks, but the rest are pretty bleh to me.

I've been DMing games for over twenty years and have never brought a laptop into play. D&D just isn't complex enough to need even a calculator.

I agree. Never used one when I played but I've had several DMs that have used one. A couple ran story games where all the stats and hp and such were completely hidden from players. Those were the only style of games where I think it'd be really useful to help keep track of everyone and not get too bogged down in datasheets.

@ alpharious - we will find out thursday. I will post pics from my phone @ the con.

MadNes wrote: You would have to be SUPER patient or a mensa member to play this game without the software.

The Mensa requirement is pretty low, only top 1% IQ, so, speaking for myself, I could easily do it.

But that presumes that the underlying game values would actually be worth my effort to invest in such rote memorization. So far, the models and themes that I've seen aren't interesting enough to justify such investment.

Also, speaking with my game designer hat on, the reliance on large tables generally means that the designers don't know what they're doing, so have to rely on arbitrary complexity and quantity as a smokescreen for elegance and quality. Clear, simple mechanics are the true hallmark of excellence in game design, not throwing in the kitchen sink and then using a computer as a crutch to muddle through a pile that the designer wasn't smart enough to pare back to the essentials.

lol, i was going to start defending the company since i actually like their minis until i read an interesting bit of the website. so... to recap, a brand spankin' new poster comes onto the site to angrily refute criticisms of the company's upcoming product while at the same time calling people like us a "handful" of "elitist" "nerds".

is that really the best way to advertise your product? to come onto a site and try to push around the people you're calling elitist nerds on your company's page? who exactly do you think is going to buy your products? who do you think attend the gaming convention (gencon) that you're going to in order to advertise your products? cheerleaders and mixed martial arts fighters? lol... you've just lost ANY hope of me purchasing your products.

http://ex-illis.com/wikien/What_is_Ex_illis

Whoop Dee Do is all I have to say about that.

Reading this thread makes me feel like Ex Illis is a game elitist nerds trying to push onto others. Apart from being not so multipose that models look ok. But since thisthread is about the horrendous base on the first let's bash that! Seriuously what is it supposed to be? A pile of goo mixed with a town with dead angels and faceless souls(?) crawling in the ground?

Nice find, warboss. +1 internet for the first people to achieve the following:

Cheat in Ex Illis.

Find a cartoony looking Ex Illis model (oh, the imps... I guess I win).

Start a 'non-nerds should especially apply' Ex Illis club (or any wargame for that matter).

Win a game of Ex Illis without actually thinking, even for a second. This also applies to any other... anything.

Accept evolution as your personal lord and savior! This isn't one of them, I just wanted to say that...



NOW... this thread is about the base, right? I agree with those who say it looks cheaply manufactured, but one cannot blame an up-and-coming for the initial quality of their miniatures when this is being introduced first and foremost as a game system. The imagination behind the sculpt is quite clear, and with better materials and more experience I'm sure the company and their sculptors could come up with much better. Unfortunately, it is very difficult for this business model to get very far without additional sales in the form of... oh, say, miniatures. Gotta start somewhere

In a very short space of time I have seen this game being pushed very hard, and frankly the majority of what I have heard in response is that the manufacturers are ignoring people's genuine criticism of the entire package, be it the rules, minatures, support, or disturbing metallic aftertaste.

If the product is good, it will sell itself, and good advertising/competitive pricing can only help.

If the product is average, it will need more focused advertising, and in my opinion, should not be aimed at 'friends and family [rather] than keeping it elitist'. If it is very low cost/competitive, and as easy to pull out and play as a board game, then it should be marketed as such. One positive part of the game design I can see is that if the game is very simple but there are additional rules for levelling (ie it is not required but a fun addition for more involved players), it will potentially appeal to a wider audience. This is clearly what the manufacturer wants. GW know they sell an involved hobby, although their shopfront business model seems to infer the opposite.

I think that the makers of this game desperately need to begin to address the criticism they are receiving, and they must address it humbly. Obviously it is their game, but if you can't make the main audience feel 'passionate' about it without giving a little away, then it's time to give something away.

Any associated with the Ex Illis game who wants to communicate with their intended market in this forum should study the history of an operation known as 'Battle Foam,' and their interactions on this site. Welcome to the wargaming community. It's hell.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Any associated with the Ex Illis game who wants to communicate with their intended market in this forum should study the history of an operation known as 'Battle Foam,' and their interactions on this site. Welcome to the wargaming community. It's hell.

Agreed, Romeo is an excellent example of listening to and enabling the community. I don't know what that means but IT power phrases sound fitting.