Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

don_mondo wrote:Oh, I like seeing painted armies and all that, but I'm not going to discriminate against someone because they're just getting started and they're all excited about the game and they haven't painted their army yet. That's how we LOSE gamers. Encourage them, support them, help them, play them. But don't get all hoity-toity on them and tell them that you won't play them until they finish painting their army and basing it and all taht crap. That is NOT what building the hobby is all about.

This is a somewhat disingenuous argument, in my experience the bulk of people fielding unpainted armies have not "just started", first evidenced by the size of their army, but because they "don't want to" or "can't be bothered". If you're playing with unpainted miniatures after 6 months then you've made a choice not to. That's their bag, they don't have a right to game, there are plenty of other players. Players and pick and choose who they play with, if a person does miss out on a game because they only play painted armies then so be it, maybe they do only play once a month, maybe that's as often as they can take a whole day out their weekend. And maybe they really enjoy seeing those gorgeous armies lined up to battle over an afternoon even if only occasionally. Because a lot of players don't value the game and the dice rolling over the painting, and don't judge their gaming experiences by the quantity of games they play. A few really enjoyable games is all that's needed.

nkelsch wrote:Wait, I have to sacrifice my experience and enjoyment in order to "bring new people into the hobby" now? My gaming time is limited too... Why should I sacrifice my experience by playing against unpainted models to make others happy? They only care about getting themselves a game and care not for thier opponent's experience so why shouldn't I be exactly the same way. Pushing unpainted minis on opponents is no more or less selfish than deciding not to play someone with unpainted minis because all you are doing is putting your instant gratification first.

Quite right, I've always seen fielding painted models as showing respect for your opponent and the quality of the game. It's always the same story on these threads, people who want painted miniatures get maligned as elitist. It's some kind of fear of judgement by people who don't paint, but there's no equivalent. A person not painting their models doesn't really have anything to get over a person that does. Unless they turn out to be a total douchbag when playing. So that's why we get all this bluster and accusations of elitism. When in fact painting the models has always been part of the hobby as a whole.

The spread of unpainted armies is mostly a GW thing I feel, I don't see it so much in other games systems. I think it's all a result of GWs sell fast policies, that's why they don't demand people paint their figures to use in the shop any more. Because their business is so angled towards making fast sales and bleeding new customers as fast as possible, they want to remove all barriers to playing. If you tell little Timmy he has his AoBR box game but has to paint everything before he can play then it'll end up in the back of a drawer pretty fast. They want him in the shop gaming and buying all the new products they can throw at him quicker than he can build or paint them.

Mattlov wrote:I have no problems playing against and unpainted army, or playing with an unpainted army. It is a game.

The refusal to play against one is utterly ridiculous. You CAN'T support that position without being a total D-bag.

Why? What reasons are acceptable for turning down a game in your book? A person's reasons for gaming are their own, I see nothing wrong in wanting to play painted armies. The hobby has always been this way.

The spread of unpainted armies is mostly a GW thing I feel, I don't see it so much in other games systems. I think it's all a result of GWs sell fast policies, that's why they don't demand people paint their figures to use in the shop any more. Because their business is so angled towards making fast sales and bleeding new customers as fast as possible, they want to remove all barriers to playing. If you tell little Timmy he has his AoBR box game but has to paint everything before he can play then it'll end up in the back of a drawer pretty fast. They want him in the shop gaming and buying all the new products they can throw at him quicker than he can build or paint them.

Actually, most game systems I know of don't require painted models. Privateer doesn't, Corvus Belli doesn't, Wyrd doesn't, Catalyst doesn't... Really, GW is one of the only ones to require painted models for their events.

My club only plays with painted stuff... Never even considered using unpainted stuff to be honest, but we play historicals and I have never seen unpainted stuff in use among historical players...

I guess we are too anal for that sort of carry on!

My club only plays with painted stuff... Never even considered using unpainted stuff to be honest, but we play historicals and I have never seen unpainted stuff in use among historical players...

I guess we are too anal for that sort of carry on!

Historicals tend to be another can of worms entirely regarding painting. I mean, it's not just having it painted, it's having it painted in the proper camo scheme for the unit, front, and time period you're representing, and god save you if you want to have a Gay Hitler army...

I try to play with painted figures only (and since I am really slow at painting, that means my selection is not all that great despite having several armies - I only ever play my CSM ), but I will use partially or unpainted models if I don't have units painted up (ie I use raptors every game but still have not got round to painting them, so they are played just with primer on).

Ideally I'd love to play with and against fully painted and based models on a fully done up board, however, I will play against whatever people will bring - though I don't really like proxies if there are a lot of them. I have trouble remembering what everything is supposed to be

I love playing fullpainted vs. fullpainted, but TBHICGAFF.
Grey on grey is fine by me.

I'd like to see pics of some of the table/terrain setups the people who only play vs. painted armies are using.

I have always found it ironic that many of the "paint snobs" I have encountered have utter ass tables or terrain or accept playing on such.

I personally expect the terrain to match the quality of the miniatures being used on it, so if someone is gonna demand my army be painted they better have some quality terrain to play on.

Detailed, based, painted with shading and highlights, themed to the table being used, etc., etc.

Otherwise shut up about non-painted armies "ruining" the visual, because that coke bottle tower and foam core building that looks like a five year old made it as an art project just aren't gonna cut it, and are ruining my enjoyment of the game...

Most of my 40k models are painted, and about a 1/3 of my fantasy army is, but I won't play against anyone who requires you to have a painted army.

I pay to have my armies painted. It's taken me years to get what I have done, done. I do this because I want my models to look good, and were I to paint them they'd be anything but.

I'll be the last person to prejudice against anyone who doesn't have the skill or ambition to paint their models, and I won't entertain anyone who would.

I prefer to play with and against painted armies, but we have lots of Navy guys here so they don't really have time to paint.
Overall if you have the right parts, or are at least clear what something is i'm up for a game!

I was very excited yesterday walking into my local game store when I saw two guys getting ready to set up for a 40K game. I got my paint, looked at the Tau Empire codex for a while, and wandered back to see their armies. As near as I could tell, they were both playing the headless armless space marine horde, one supported by Tyranid monstrous creatures, the other by Tau drones and vehicles. I was very disappointed.

I almost makes me sad when I play an army that isn't even primed while mine is nearly all painted and definately all primed. I see it as an insult. Afterall, if you put enough time into the game you have got to at least prime your stuff, just professional I think.

Either way, food for thought.

my models have to be fully painted and based for me to use them.

your models can be however you want them to be.

I consider 'how cool my army looks' much more important than 'how often it wins'.

QFT

studderingdave wrote:my models have to be fully painted and based for me to use them.

your models can be however you want them to be.

woot!

I can't stand playing with my army if it's not painted... the last couple of parts are on their way in this week!!!

But I'd never be a jerk enough to refuse to play someone whose minis weren't painted... disappointed, yes, not not a jerk...

CT GAMER wrote:I'd like to see pics of some of the table/terrain setups the people who only play vs. painted armies are using.

I have always found it ironic that many of the "paint snobs" I have encountered have utter ass tables or terrain or accept playing on such.

BITE ME...










Automatically Appended Next Post:

Laughing Man wrote:

My club only plays with painted stuff... Never even considered using unpainted stuff to be honest, but we play historicals and I have never seen unpainted stuff in use among historical players...

I guess we are too anal for that sort of carry on!

Historicals tend to be another can of worms entirely regarding painting. I mean, it's not just having it painted, it's having it painted in the proper camo scheme for the unit, front, and time period you're representing, and god save you if you want to have a Gay Hitler army...

Blessed be the rivet-counter. Its something us historicals have to put up with... I like to make them sweat by having fictional wars using historical figures.

Though I once saw a guy at a show moan about the way some naked Greek slingers were painted...

Big P wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:I'd like to see pics of some of the table/terrain setups the people who only play vs. painted armies are using.

I have always found it ironic that many of the "paint snobs" I have encountered have utter ass tables or terrain or accept playing on such.

BITE ME...










Automatically Appended Next Post:

Laughing Man wrote:

My club only plays with painted stuff... Never even considered using unpainted stuff to be honest, but we play historicals and I have never seen unpainted stuff in use among historical players...

I guess we are too anal for that sort of carry on!

Historicals tend to be another can of worms entirely regarding painting. I mean, it's not just having it painted, it's having it painted in the proper camo scheme for the unit, front, and time period you're representing, and god save you if you want to have a Gay Hitler army...

Blessed be the rivet-counter. Its something us historicals have to put up with... I like to make them sweat by having fictional wars using historical figures.

Though I once saw a guy at a show moan about the way some naked Greek slingers were painted...

Nice table.

And good job taking my above quote out of context.

The second part which you conveniently left out clearly states that I have no complaints if said persons ALSO put as much of a demand on terrain as they do minis, which your pic is an example of. It is the hypocrites who refuse to play people because it "ruins the visual" and then proceeded to play on a table with horrible terrain (I see it all the time). I think it's less about "the visual" and more about elitism and snobbery...


Also, you might be the exception not the rule, so while your pic is nice, it really doesn't change much, and also I'm talking specifically about the people that posted in this thread that they wouldn't play people...

I can see this is a polarising issue . . . surely it's a little counter-productive to call anyone with the opposite view a douchebag, are you personally offended that one person would rather play miniature games with someone else?

I didn't vote in the poll, on account of being a normal person with flexible standards. I would not refuse to play someone whose army was unpainted, but if there are two strangers offering a game, I know nothing about them except one's army is unpainted and one's is painted, I'm picking the guy with the painted army as my opponent.

Conversely, with my own army I try to have everything painted. I have often fielded at least some of the army black or grey/metal. But I reduced the amount of unpainted stuff until I could play with a fully-painted force. (of course now, I want to add more units and change my tactics, so I will buy more, and then play a half-painted army for a while longer . . . I really wish I could paint faster)

My point is, very few people will always play fully painted, and I consider that fine. What I prefer, with myself and opponents, is people who work towards painted armies. If someone's stuff starts unpainted, and he can only make very slow progress, that's fine. Shows he has a life outside models, if anything. But if there was a bloke in my group who showed up for months with the same crap-looking, unpainted force, I'd really start playing the other available opponents and avoiding games against him.

Don't be a nazi about it, but if you paint your models, it is natural, reasonable and expected that you will want to play painted opponents. (and on decent terrain)

P.S. If you hate painting, dear god, why did you start this hobby!? Feel free to play against other like-minded people, but you will probably never be my favorite opponent. I may think you're a great guy, and relish the occassional game with you to try tactics or have a laugh, but overall, I'd rather look at a pretty table.

CT GAMER wrote:

And good job taking my above quote out of context.

No its not out of context.

You asked, and I showed you that some 'paint-snobs' as you so wittily put it, do play on 'acceptable' tables.

I cant comment on others, all the games at my club are like this and we tend to put as much effort into terrain as the armies... Perhaps thats another historicals hang-up? Then again I have seen some shocking tables used for historical games... Plain chipboard with the terrain features drawn on with chalk. Ok if it floats your boat but terrible to my 'Elitist' viewpoint.

None of my club, even the 40k players, will play with unpainted stuff. Just the way some of us are I guess... Never even considered it as the hobby to me is playing with painted stuff, otherwise I may as well use counters.

What others do is upto them... Couldnt careless if people play with unpainted stuff... Just not my thing, and as all our club feel the same (several ex-GW staff and long-time players amongst us) its never been an issue.

Big P wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

And good job taking my above quote out of context.

No its not out of context.

You asked, and I showed you that some 'paint-snobs' as you so wittily put it, do play on 'acceptable' tables.

I cant comment on others, all the games at my club are like this and we tend to put as much effort into terrain as the armies... Perhaps thats another historicals hang-up? Then again I have seen some shocking tables used for historical games... Plain chipboard with the terrain features drawn on with chalk. Ok if it floats your boat but terrible to my 'Elitist' viewpoint.

None of my club, even the 40k players, will play with unpainted stuff. Just the way some of us are I guess... Never even considered it as the hobby to me is playing with painted stuff, otherwise I may as well use counters.

What others do is upto them... Couldnt careless if people play with unpainted stuff... Just not my thing, and as all our club feel the same (several ex-GW staff and long-time players amongst us) its never been an issue.

My FLGS is the other way around from this.

We have beautifully painted Terrain (And lots of it) on a well-made table crafted by our dedicated staff.

And most of them play with unpainted, half-assembled armies.

CT GAMER wrote:And good job taking my above quote out of context.

The second part which you conveniently left out clearly states that I have no complaints if said persons ALSO put as much of a demand on terrain as they do minis, which your pic is an example of. It is the hypocrites who refuse to play people because it "ruins the visual" and then proceeded to play on a table with horrible terrain (I see it all the time). I think it's less about "the visual" and more about elitism and snobbery...


Also, you might be the exception not the rule, so while your pic is nice, it really doesn't change much, and also I'm talking specifically about the people that posted in this thread that they wouldn't play people...

You made a total strawman argument based on generalizations. I have made and donated loads of painted terrain over the years. I have worked on more than a dozen 'static cinematic tables', some of which are still alive and kicking in GW stores. For every 1-2 units I paint, I usually also crank out a piece of terrain so we will always have stuff to play on.

If you can make a worthless generalization and you say it is about 'snobbery' and not actually about painting models... then I can make one too!

Not painting is about being a power WAAC gamer who has no real skill at the game and simply buys up 300$ of the new flavour of the month army codex to try to beat people with an army no one is familiar with and they know not gluing/painting the models means they can easily get top dollar on eBay when it comes time to dump this army and move to the next flavour of the month army. Primed, assembled and painted models often lose value on eBay. They care nothing about the game, or the models, or opponents... just being the first to win as many games by exploiting new codexes and to move on to the next WIN.

See? I can make total generalizations based on a minor shred of truth but probably doesn't actually apply to 95% of the people out there. I know most people are just simple gamers trying to build an army and are WIP trying to paint as they can. I know the 'refuse to paint for eBay value' is a very small subset and while not common, does exist.

I know it is odd to some, but I care more about how my army looks than if I win games. The game is nothing more than an excuse to push painted minis around a board. Anyone who thinks 'the game' is serious business needs to look into chess. Warhammer, 40k in particular is an unbalanced trainwreck of a game system which is hardly capable of being played competitively and is so random and actually so simple I kinda laugh when people claim "you may learn some skill or tactics from these excellent non-painters who take the game so seriously."

The only GW game I consider a true test of some skill is Bloodbowl as it is one of the better balanced and tactical games GW has made. If you want to call in a game that is real mental skill and capacity, let's do an all human BB tourney. I probably wouldn't mind as much about painted minis simply because the expectation would be this is a game-based event.

Everything else 40k, the game is to occupy time and facilitate the painting and social activities that go with it. If you really think 40k is all about skill and tactics and some sort of test of competitive gaming then maybe you should go play connect 4 or checkers...

Modquisition on.
Lets all mellow out people. Warning-I haven't banned anyone in at loeast three days and am getting antsy. Just putting that out there.

Now to show my beneficence, enjoy the awesomeness of weiner dogs.

I always try to get a painted army but that takes time, and sometimes i buy to much. I do get my armies painted though

I try to always field a fully painted army. Sometimes I'll field WIP's, but never anything less than that. I take it as an insult if someone plays with bare plastic or primed only models. So I will try to avoid playing them if possible.

I try to paint most of my stuff and I really don't care what the state of my opponents models are so long as I can figure out what is what mid game. I think the fact that my stuff is painted is the reason I win most of my games.

I will not play in public with an unpainted army and I am not really often in a situation where I would expect to have an oppenent with an upainted army (nor would I want to).

If someone suggested they wanted to play a game and had an unpainted army I might play to be polite (and really it would depend more on whether I wanted to spend a few hours with this person than the painiting situation) -- and I do try things out with proxies and occasionally unpainted figures (in the privacy of my own home, mostly -- we did have a few Russians bulking up an Italian unit in a FOW campaign game this weekend as a few people were behind in their painting).

In our club we try to encourage new people by having loaner armies, running small games that only require a few figs and running games where the GM supplies all the figs (something which seems more acceptable in historical games than others). We have people at our club who have played for years without (as far as I know) painting a single figure but they are happy to use someone else's.

If I went to game in a public space where unpainted armies are allowed and someone had an unpainted army, of course I would play them because that is what is expected there (and I think it would be rude to refuse to play someone for that reason in that case) BUT that is not really what I enjoy so I am not likely to put myself in that situation.

I don't put models on the table that aren't painted. Like others have noted, I enjoy my army better that way and feel I am offering my gaming partner the best experience I can.

My order of preference with a mixture of variables; Dicktitude is more of an issue for me :

1. Not a dick, fully painted. and I didn't play you yesterday.
2. Not a dick, mostly painted.
3. Not a dick with nothing painted - sure a small game, then lets go chat at the painting table and work on something.
4. Not a dick, fully painted and I did play you yesterday - rather play the same guy everyday then the next bunch.

5. Dick with all painted - a dick is still a dick but I'll play them rather then go home sometimes. At least the battle reports will look nice.
6. Dick with most painted - not likely.
7. Dick with nothing painted, I'd rather chat with the others at the paint table or go home and wash my dog

Dick could probably be put in some gradations too as there are people I'd just never play with no matter how well done their army is.

Apparently Very Polarizing.

There is something always to be said about Painted Mini's on Painted Mini's fight. It just looks good. In tournments, I have never seen one held that doesnt have the 3 color Rule! I am not against that.

However, for fun games. Unless you are a Dedicated League with established rules with regards to this, I have never had a problem with Plastic of Primed Minis. I have been playing 40k for just over Ten years now, have about 5 seperate armies of 1500+ points and only 3 of them, honestly are fully painted. I simply dont have the time or focus to paint them. Or honestly, that skilled. Unfortunately I get disheartened easily when I see 100+ models to paint..

I have been a longtime removed from a Club/Gaming Store atmosphere, but the one I Was in we all strived to paint our Models. This was before the Hayday of Ebay so alot of times, people would play that day with freshly assembled models. We even had a setup out back to prime them if they so wanted.

Personally, I think you should at least Prime the models. That shows at least an intention of Painting them. Its the first step in Prep work. However, as some have pointed out, this line can and should be drawn if a player shows no intent on advancing an army's appearance. Afterall, I have recently poured myself into Tyranids. Collecting off EBAY for unpainted or primed models. Wholesellers and what not and have a rather sizable brood. Sporting roughly 240 Hormoguants. Its unrealistic for me to not want to play with that many before each individual is painted. However, they are all "based" so they stay standing and all are primed. It is my intention (with a deal with my wife on the matter) to complete this army!

To those that would refuse to play with me on the grounds that my army wasnt painted and somehow, I would be insulting their dedication to the Hobby, reducing their experience and enjoyment of the game, de-valueing their minatures, or some other inane excuse as to why you wouldnt play with an unpainted army. screw off! All you are doing is making yourself look like a self-righteous snob and are losing perspective oppenents in the future. I certainly wouldnt play with you again on those reasons alone.

Would it be so hard to come up with a "lame" excuse to get out of the challenge? Like, I feel like taking a break, or simply not interested?

Big P wrote:My club only plays with painted stuff... Never even considered using unpainted stuff to be honest, but we play historicals and I have never seen unpainted stuff in use among historical players...

I guess we are too anal for that sort of carry on!

Ditto.

I don't see the point of playing miniature wargames unless you do it with nice figures. For me that means painted.

Comintern wrote:

Would it be so hard to come up with a "lame" excuse to get out of the challenge? Like, I feel like taking a break, or simply not interested?

Are you saying you would accept 'simply not interested' as an answer? Would you then be all fussy and redfaced if 20 minutes later I ended up playing against someone else with a painted army? And I laugh again at the idea of 'challenge' due to the uncompetitive nature of 40k...

I see a lot of "You can't fire me, I QUIT!" attitude from angry people who are upset that someone somewhere won't play against them and then a lot of insults and personal attacks.

Good news is for people who like painted armies:
1. Most events or game venues usually have a 'store' standard so you can know what to expect and choose where to go before you step foot in the location. Then you basically can choose if you are willing to play by 'that standard' by attending or leaving the store. Considering there is no end to events that require painting, this makes it really easy to find opponents.
2. There are lots of ways to bring people into the hobby and support painting without requiring it. Escalation leagues are a good way to promote painting and allow lower point games as people build up. it also builds mutual respect and support in helping people paint armies.
3. You can always 'not play' the game and paint at the public painting table, which is fun to do.

But I guess it is more fun to rage against the machine because someone somewhere doesn't want to play against your unpainted minis than accept most people are very reasonable and there is nothing actually wrong with wanting to play against painted opponents.

Discrimination: treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit:

"not painting" is not a protected class... Not playing against you because your models are unpainted is not discrimination or prejudice because you are being treated as is an individual judgement based upon your own actions and merit. You are not unfairly being denied from events and avoided by opponents due to something out of your control but based solely upon your own actions or in-actions. If you want to be able to play against 100% of opponents, the standard required is 100% painted and WYSIWYG.