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Ren, you can list things and try to fuzzy it up all you want. End of the day, it's still not a unit of grey knights, it's a mixed unit and therefor cannot use any of the GK only special rules.

Ah, quite the little debate I've started.

Honestly, I agree with Ren. None of you have given any legitimate sources for your claims.

If unit A joins unit B, it is now the single unit C. However, unit C is still composed of the seperate units A and B, and therefore if you were to shoot unit C, you are shooting unit A and B. If unit A has an ability which restricts your fire, since unit A is a part of the unit you are shooting at, you have to take that test.

There is not a single thing in the BRB or DH Codex (that I know of) that contradicts this.

You guys are working under the assumption that you can avoid it because the entire unit doesn't have it; but that's not true. You can't avoid Typhus' defensive grenades just because that Terminator squad he's attached to doesn't have them.

It's really not that hard to comprehend...and it's not all that "crazy". It seems perfectly clear to me.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
...if other mechanics of the game are not to be referenced when "Makin' Da Call" then what grounds would you say can/should be used as justification for how a rules call would be made (that is what this is, a rules call.)...

The only valid sources of information a GW Errata to the GK Codex, GW Errata to the BRB and the GK Codex and BRB themselves. These are the only relevant sources unless the GK are in some way interacting in a specific manner with another army in which case the alternate codex and assocaited Errata are valud.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
"Units of GK and non GK benefit from the Shrouding Special rule, because I say so"

No the opposing argument is specific to the exact wording in the codex. A unit of Grey Knights. What is a unit of Grey Knights...one composed entirely of Grey Knights. Why? Because adding anything else causes it to cease being a unit of GK and start being a unit of GK plus some other stuff (which is not what the codex says)

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
I am using other examples of similar mechanics in other codexes to JUSTIFY MY ARGUMENT.

This is like using wikipedia for your term paper.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:
Grey Knight terminology is specified in the definition you posted. The rule for shrouding states it applied to a unit of 'Grey Knights,' that is a unit having the designation 'Grey Knights' as specified by the definition above. When the unit is not composed of models with said definition, then it is not a unit of 'Grey Knights'

As I have asked a thousand times already, what is your justification for this statement.

The codex says what a GK is? A bushel of apples ceases to be a bushel of apples once you add a pear. It becomes a bushel of apples with a pear.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
ATSKNF DOES(Or Should, I've NEVER heard of any other situation) help the Unit in case they were to be beaten in Close Combat and fail their moral check (or, chose to fail in the case of an Inquisitor Lord with Iron Will) and they are victim to a sweeping advance. I personally thing that a "No Retreat" rule is favorable to a "Simply wiped out" situation...

I referenced an Elite OH Inquisitor, not Inquisitor Lord. It would be nice if they could use ATSKNF, but the Inquisitor does not have that rule...which means neither do the SM he joined...Check the SM codex, there is even an entry specifying an exemption to this in the case of servitors from the SM codex which would not be there if ATSKNF was transferrable.

calypso2ts wrote:
A bushel of apples ceases to be a bushel of apples once you add a pear. It becomes a bushel of apples with a pear.

Tenets of You Make Da Call (YMDC) wrote:
3. Never, ever bring real-world examples into a rules argument.
- The rules, while creating a very rough approximation of the real world, are an abstraction of a fantasy universe. Real world examples have no bearing on how the rules work. So quit it.

But I'll play along...so going by what you're saying, if that pear was rotten and I ate the entire bushel of apples as well as the pear, that just because the pear is with the apples it is no longer rotten, and therefore, I should not get sick.

Lolwut?

calypso2ts wrote:

This is like using wikipedia for your term paper.

I'd rather use Wikipedia then "a hunch" which IS ALL you have provided as justification.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

don_mondo wrote:Ren, you can list things and try to fuzzy it up all you want. End of the day, it's still not a unit of grey knights, it's a mixed unit and therefor cannot use any of the GK only special rules.

Where in the GK special rules does it say that ONLY units which consist of ONLY Grey Knight may benefit from these rules? There is no such thing as a "Mixed Unit" (unless Planters recently started making them) there is a "Combined Unit" and as stated earlier, the major debate in question is whither

A:

A Combined unit consists of "Meta-Units" which are the originating units which form the "Combined unit" (The BRB Supports this theory)

or

B:

A Combined unit is a new type of unit entirely, which abandons its old unit type in favor of the new "Hybrid Unit". (There has not been any solid supporting evidence of this theory)

The codex says what a GK is? A bushel of apples ceases to be a bushel of apples once you add a pear. It becomes a bushel of apples with a pear.

and if that bushel of apples has the ability to confuse anyone trying to look at them, why does that pear negate that ability. You said your self, its a Bushel of apples with a pear, so it is still a bushel of apples (at least in part)

I referenced an Elite OH Inquisitor, not Inquisitor Lord. It would be nice if they could use ATSKNF, but the Inquisitor does not have that rule...which means neither do the SM he joined...Check the SM codex, there is even an entry specifying an exemption to this in the case of servitors from the SM codex which would not be there if ATSKNF was transferrable.

Thats only because Servitors are the only "infantry" without ATSKNF in the dex

Wolves have the same "exemption" but it includes Cyberwolves and Fenrisian wolves, as well as servitors, if anything, this "exemption" is proof that if anything without ATSKNF were to join something WITH ATSKNF then it GAINS ATSKNF!

Unfortunately, your argument works against you. The codex specifies "a unit of Grey Knights". It doesn't specify a unit consisting mostly, partially, or entirely of Grey Knights or even just that the unit has to contain Grey Knights, it just says "a unit of Grey Knights". And it unfortunately doesn't say "When enemy units fire at Grey Knights ...", either.

As you point out, the rules don't define anything for what constitutes "a unit of X" so we're left to fall back to common usage, and for common usage we have the ever popular box of fruit:

Let's say that you have a box of apples. How many pears do you have to add to that box for it to become a box of pears? It's pretty obvious that no amount of pears will turn a box of apples into a box of pears, it's a box of mixed fruit.

So why do you persist in claiming that the addition of a Grey Knight model can turn a unit of Storm Troopers into a unit of Grey Knights?

solkan wrote:Unfortunately, your argument works against you. The codex specifies "a unit of Grey Knights". It doesn't specify a unit consisting mostly, partially, or entirely of Grey Knights or even just that the unit has to contain Grey Knights, it just says "a unit of Grey Knights". And it unfortunately doesn't say "When enemy units fire at Grey Knights ...", either.

Because it doesn't need to? It doesn't matter what the ratio is; a combined unit is a combination of multiple, seperate units. It is one made of several. You can say "I'm shooting the big old Stormtrooper/GK unit" but in the end, you are still shooting a Storm Trooper unit and a Grey Knight unit. What does it say happens when you shoot a Grey Knight unit? Exactly.

The only way you could avoid shooting the GK unit within the GK/ST amaglamation is if you could pick out the Storm Trooper unit, which (you guessed it) you can't.

solkan wrote:
Let's say that you have a box of apples. How many pears do you have to add to that box for it to become a box of pears? It's pretty obvious that no amount of pears will turn a box of apples into a box of pears, it's a box of mixed fruit.

This is a completely invalid argument for two reasons:
1) It breaks rule three of the YMDC forum.
2) It is kind of irrelevant and doesn't prove your point. If anything, it proves ours. But I'll play along, and to do so, let me break it down for you:

I have a box of pears and a box of apples.

I am not allergic to the pears. I am allergic to the apples.

If I put the box of pears and the box of apples into one box, I will have a box of mixed fruit.

What will happen if I eat everything in the box?

Answer: I will have an allergic reaction, because my allergy to the pears did not disappear by putting the apples and pears in one box. I may be eating a box of mixed fruit, but I'm still eating two seperate fruits (one of which I am allergic to). Therefore, I will have an allergic reaction.

Now, look at this:

I have a Grey Knight unit and a Storm Trooper unit.

The Grey Knights get the Shrouding. The Storm Troopers do not.

If I combine the Grey Knight unit and the Storm Trooper unit, I will have a combined unit.

What will happen if I shoot at the combined unit?

Answer: They will get the Shrouding, because the Shrouding did not disappear by putting the Grey Knight unit and the Storm Trooper unit into one combined unit. You may be targeting the combined unit but you're still shooting two seperate units (one of which is the Grey Knight unit). Therefore, they get the Shrouding.

WOAHOMGWTFMAGIC


Why is this so hard to comprehend?

Because shrouding has an affect on Grey Knight units, and the unit you just shot isn't one hence no affect.

Or with my personal favorite~

Darth Bob wrote:

Why is this so hard to comprehend?

It's not, so I have no idea how you keep getting it wrong.......................

Please show where you still have two units.

You don't. The BRB specifically states an IC JOINS another unit. What happens when you join two things together? You get one "thing" which is a composite of both those things.

Finally: You are stating that you are shooting at 2 units. THis is not allowed in the shooting rules, the shooting rules REQUIRE you to shoot at ONE unit. AS such I will shoot at the combined unit, whcih is NOT a GK Unit, and therefore no shrouding.

AS don said, this really isnt difficult, and we're not sure why you're getting it so wrong.

So yes when Grey Knights join another unit (or vice versa) they still maintain shrouding, as there is no precedent for losing special abilities. HOWEVER! The other unit doesn't have shrouding. Meaning that they are still visible. So the shooting unit (or whatever) shoots at what they think is a normal unit in some fog, and then just happen to kill one, some, or no Grey Knights . . . Done and done =D

The Grey Kngihts gain no benefit from their special rules while in a "Combined Unit". =D

Oshova

ChrisCP wrote:Because shrouding has an affect on Grey Knight units, and the unit you just shot isn't one hence no affect.

Or with my personal favorite~

What is that little purple area made of? A different unit and a Grey Knight unit. I'm not saying the blue has become a unit of Grey Knights, nor am I saying that the Purple has become a unit of Grey Knights (so don't put words in my mouth). I'm saying that one of the ingredients of that purple unit is a Grey Knight unit. Because there is a Grey Knight unit within that purple area, if you shoot the purple area, you are shooting at a Grey Knight unit, and therefore, test for Shrouding.

don_mondo wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:

Why is this so hard to comprehend?

It's not, so I have no idea how you keep getting it wrong.......................

The feeling's mutual, especially since you have yet to give any support to your claims other than "Because I said so and other people agree with me."

nosferatu1001 wrote:Please show where you still have two units.

You don't. The BRB specifically states an IC JOINS another unit. What happens when you join two things together? You get one "thing" which is a composite of both those things.
Finally: You are stating that you are shooting at 2 units. THis is not allowed in the shooting rules, the shooting rules REQUIRE you to shoot at ONE unit. AS such I will shoot at the combined unit, whcih is NOT a GK Unit, and therefore no shrouding.

AS don said, this really isnt difficult, and we're not sure why you're getting it so wrong.

You just proved my point...what are the things that make up that one thing? The things that makes up that one thing are some other unit and a Grey Knight unit. Even though the new unit is its own unit, it is still composed of a Grey Knight unit and another unit. If you shoot that combined unit, you are shooting a Grey Knight unit and another unit. However, you're venturing to say that there are no longer seperate units within the combined units. Which is wrong, as that is the difference between an IC joining a unit (what we have here) and an IC with a retinue. An IC attached to a unit is one whole unit, but the IC and the other unit are still seperate units in their own right. An IC with a retinue is one whole unit, the retinue is not a seperate unit from the IC.

With your logic: If I assault a Terminator Squad with Typhus they will not get Typhus' defensive grenades because I'm not assaulting Typhus (because apparently it's no longer Typhus because it doesn't make up only Typhus.)

Oshova wrote:So yes when Grey Knights join another unit (or vice versa) they still maintain shrouding, as there is no precedent for losing special abilities. HOWEVER! The other unit doesn't have shrouding. Meaning that they are still visible. So the shooting unit (or whatever) shoots at what they think is a normal unit in some fog, and then just happen to kill one, some, or no Grey Knights . . . Done and done =D

The Grey Kngihts gain no benefit from their special rules while in a "Combined Unit". =D

Oshova

That comment made no sense...(very odd wording, in my opinion).

From what I can gather, you're opperating under the assumption that they can shoot around Grey Knights, where in reality, they can't. Again, I'll turn to Typhus and his Terminators. Are you saying that because he's in a combined unit that doesn't have defensive grenades, he in turn cannot benefit from his defensive grenades? Try to pull that one on a Chaos player and I guarantee you they will slap the gak out of you.


None of you can provide solid proof that it works the way you claim, whereas DAR and I have provided precedences, detailed reasoning, and common sense to support why we are right. Explain to me again how we're wrong? Stop falling back on "LOLOLOL IS DIS A GREY KNIGHT UNIT?" because we're not claiming it is. We're saying there's a Grey Knight unit in it. If you shoot something with another thing in it. You are still shooting that other thing. If there's a rule that says shooting that other thing incurs the Shrouding, than by shooting a unit with that other thing in it, you incur the Shrouding rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote: What happens when you join two things together? You get one "thing" which is a composite of both those things.

Then would you like to explain to me how someone who is 1/16th Cherokee is just as eligible for the American Indian College Fund as someone who is 100% (or close to it) Cherokee? According to your logic, when you MIX two things the NEW thing is NOT the same as the OLD?

Now heres a BIG question. You say that when One unit joins another, it is no longer a unit of X.

BRB page 90 says
Scoring units
: Paraphrase : The presence of other units may deny an objective but only Troops can control it : Paraphrase :

So, based on the GK ruling, YOU MUST AGREE that a unit of troops with an Independent Character (of any type other then Troops) DOES NOT COUNT AS SCORING (as it is no longer exclusively a unit of Troops).

Rebuttal?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oshova wrote:So yes when Grey Knights join another unit (or vice versa) they still maintain shrouding, as there is no precedent for losing special abilities. HOWEVER! The other unit doesn't have shrouding. Meaning that they are still visible. So the shooting unit (or whatever) shoots at what they think is a normal unit in some fog, and then just happen to kill one, some, or no Grey Knights . . . Done and done =D

The Grey Kngihts gain no benefit from their special rules while in a "Combined Unit". =D

Oshova

Also, if you went by this logic, the "Combined Unit" is still safe as the SPECIFIC wording on "The Shrouding" says that:

"A unit which fails to detect Gery knights misses its chance to fire at an alternate target"

AND

"This is the number of inches the GREY KNIGHTS (The GKGM) can be spotted at and if the unit is within this range then firing is conducted normally"

So, if you are in range of the GKGM you can fire at the COMBINED UNIT normally.

If you fail to detect the Grey Knights (The GKGM) you miss your chance to fire at an alternate target (which would be ANY unit, combined or otherwise)

All right let's take a look at a situation. We have 1 Grey Knight Hero in Terminator Armor joining a unit of 10 IG infantry figures. Let's concede for the sake of argument that we have 1 unit with a mixed configuration (it is both a GK and IG unit). How would this situation be handled for shooting purposes? I'm going to avoid the shroud for now and just assume either it doesn't work or the opposing unit makes the appropriate die rolls to be allowed to shoot at the unit.
Going by your (Darth Bob) logic when I shoot at the unit after rolling to hit I should make some rolls to wound vs the GK's toughness and the others vs the IG's toughness. Now looking at the BRB p38 the rules say to use the majority toughness and apply the wounds afterward as normal. So, the rules seem to suggest when you have mixed units use the majority's ability.
Now every figure must make saves against the wounds with each figure using it's armor value (and not the best armor value in the unit). So it seems that a unit does not benefit from having one something special in its midst.
Overall it seems that 1 figure in a unit can not impose itself onto the unit without some special rule. But wait that's what the GK has "the shrouding" so maybe that will work. The BRB says that unless specified otherwise a character's USR does carry over to the unit that it joins. However, "the shrouding" is not a USR (u standing for universal) it is a specific rule from the DH codex. So let's see what the DH codex says about how "the shrouding" works. The pertinent part says "every time an enemy unit fires at a grey knight unit...". So let's see if we fulfill those conditions enemy unit firing (check) at a grey knight unit (uh maybe not). The is an exhaustive list of what a grey knight unit consists of. The list does not include IG infantry but it does include GK heros. So now we're to the point everyone has been split. Darth Bob says that since there is a legal GK unit inside of the whole unit the unit as a whole should benefit from its being there. Pretty much everyone else disagrees.
I would say based on the BRB that the majority of figures rule the situation. In this instance 1 GK can not overcome the fact that he is with 10 IG. If the situation were reversed, an IG IC joining a GK unit made of 10 GKT then the shrouding would work. Both the current rules and a Codex from the last edition (the same edition as the GK codex was written for) say that it is the majority of figures that determine the outcome of mixed units. That other codex is the Black Templar codex when discussing neophytes in the same unit as normal troops. The neophytes gain the benefit of the toughness of the veterns and their better armor as long as the veterns outnumber the neophytes.
Otherwise until GW produces a warhammer dictionary neither side is going to be able to convince the other side. Because it comes down to whether GW meant a pure GK unit or a unit with GKs in it as to when the special rules come into effect.

Sorry for the wall of text but it's the only way that I could present my argument in a cohesive way.

For the love of Kahless, man, paragraphs!

This is asked and answered. Non-GK units with a GK attached do not benefit from shrouding.

This is the actual RAW interpretation, and no proof has been provided using the GK codex itself to show a combined unit counts as a unit of GK. This is because such proof does not exist.

One or maybe two people think (incorrectly) that this is not the case, they are welcome to play whatever future space game they want because they are certainly not playing WH 40k.

Daemon Archonren - you have still to rebut what JOIN means in the IC rules.

When you join two units together, you have one unit, until they split apart.

It really is as simple as that. Your rebuttal on your failure to understand what "join" means?

The unit of GK ceases to exist as soon as it is joined by a non-GK unit; the composite unit is not a GK unit. IF you split them up, you regain the GK unit, but while combined - nope.

IT really is as simple as that. Until you can prove that it is 2 units (you cannot, the IC rules deny this event EXCEPT in close combat) and that I am somehow targetting the non existant GK unit (I cannot, I would have to have the abiliity to hit components of a combined unit. LIke a Vindicare) despite ONLY being allowed to target ONE SINGLE UNIT (the combined unit) you have really got no argument.

So: you need to rebut how your version of "join" is different to the English definition, how you have two units when the rules tell you you have one, how you are able to target 2 units when the rules only allow you to target 1, and how you are able to target components of a unit without express permission (aka the Vindicare / Tellions rule) while shooting.

Oh, and to rebut your off target Stealth suit arguemnt: evidence of redundancy does not imply evidence of requirement. In other words having redundant rules (mentioning "entirely") does not require redundancy elsewhere. Ref: Bike entry in BRB, which references the ID rules despite this not being needed at all.

calypso2ts wrote:This is asked and answered. Non-GK units with a GK attached do not benefit from shrouding.

It is answered. But if this is your answer, it's wrong (until you can prove otherwise).

calypso2ts wrote:
This is the actual RAW interpretation, and no proof has been provided using the GK codex itself to show a combined unit counts as a unit of GK. This is because such proof does not exist.

How many times do I have to say we are not claiming the combined unit counts as a unit of GK's? I thought that was made perfectly clear. We are saying there is a GK unit within that combined unit, and by shooting at said combined unit, you are shooting at the GK unit. Hence, Shrouding. You have not provided a single RAW claim to support your standing, so don't act like you have.

calypso2ts wrote:
One or maybe two people think (incorrectly) that this is not the case, they are welcome to play whatever future space game they want because they are certainly not playing WH 40k.

We are playing a completely legitimate form of Warhammer 40k. Claiming our argument is wrong when you can't think of a decent argument against it is just silly. If you really think this is over and done with, by all means, leave the thread and allow the rest of us to have an intellectual debate instead of making under-the-radar personal attacks.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The unit of GK ceases to exist as soon as it is joined by a non-GK unit; the composite unit is not a GK unit. IF you split them up, you regain the GK unit, but while combined - nope.

Page please?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
IT really is as simple as that. Until you can prove that it is 2 units (you cannot, the IC rules deny this event EXCEPT in close combat) and that I am somehow targetting the non existant GK unit (I cannot, I would have to have the abiliity to hit components of a combined unit. LIke a Vindicare) despite ONLY being allowed to target ONE SINGLE UNIT (the combined unit) you have really got no argument.

Actually, I just read the entire entry and it never denies it. In fact it never mentions it, nor does it state (anywhere) that the seperate units being joined lose their status as seperate units by combining with another (to do so would imply the seperate unit being combined with the IC is a retinue). So it seems it is you who "have really got no argument". You don't have to pick out the particular unit within the combined unit to incur its effects. Again, if I assault Typhus with his Termies, I'm going to incur those defensive grenades.


Both of your arguments' flaws lie in the fact that you cannot prove that the seperate units that make up a combined unit lose their status as seperate units. Until you can prove this, you've got nothing.

P48 - ICs JOIN units. First bullet point

What does join mean again?

That is what I mean by denies it: you are arguing that join does not mean join.

2nd bullet point - "While an independent character is PART OF a unit"

PART OF a unit. How much clearer do you need this to be?

You will notice the word join is used continuously. You are asserting "join" means something other - and have provided no proof of this.

P48 / 49 - The Assault Phase

"the independent character assaults too as it is part of the unit."

Gee, look, theres that phrase again...

Same paragraph:

"treated as a separate single-model unit "

Treated as means they arent actually a separate single model unit, you know that right?

Final sentence:

"once again treated as normal members of the unit they
have joined"

Wow, so they are treated as normal members again, not a seperate unit? Who'd have thought!

Ready to concede yet? You have yet to provide a single rule which states that:

1) both units still exist as seperate entities *while joined*
2) you can target individual elements OR
2b) that by targeting the only thing you are allowed to target (the combined unit) you are somehow targeting the non existent GK unit.
and finally 3) That joined means something entirely differently than how English treats it.

You really have no argument here. Your entire premise is flawed, your assumptions are flawed and your conclusion is, guess what, flawed.

Ok, lets do this...



Proof that ICs are Units, also, proof that there is no such wording to suggest that an IC, or ANY unit it joins/is joined by loses its Unit type.



The rules for ICs joining units. NOTHING states t that an IC, or ANY unit it joins/is joined by loses its Unit type, nor that they are some sort of "new hybrid unit" in fact, the rules SPECIFY that the original unit and the joining character are NOT TREATED THE SAME if the original unit did not move, and the joining character did. (Which is contrary to the rules for firing heavy weapons for instance....)


How special rules work for ICs that join other units. As you can see, while the IC/Unit do not share special rules with each-other, they do NOT LOSE their special rule EXCEPT in certain situations.


Special rules that are lost by/to an IC/Joined Unit have an asterix, implying that all other special rules (UNLESS NOTED OTHERWISE) are not lost by "Combining Units".

SOOOOOO Lets look at the special rule of the shrouding!

Starting with the GK Terminology ruling



So, when reading the next rule, know that a GKGM counts as a "Unit of Grey Knights"



So, if a unit of grey knights (the GKGM) is targeted, then the enemy unit must preform a "Shrouding Check" to see if they can see the GKs and if they can fire on them, if they cannot see the unit, they MAY NOT choose another target.

So, lets look at the "Shooting at IC rules."



As you can see when you shoot at a "Combined Unit" the IC is considered part of the unit, nothing in this section implies that the IC or the Joined Unit looses any of its special rules, so the shrouding would still apply. Infact, if you notice, they have an exception for NOT being able to pick out an IC or the Joined unit (which would be an IC that is a MC) HOWEVER the MC-IC would STILL be unable to be picked out if its joined a unit of MCs or a UNIT WITH SPECIAL RULES THAT OFFER THEM PROTECTION (I would consider "The Shrouding" a special rule that offers protection) which ALSO IMPLIES THAT SPECIAL RULES WHICH PROVIDE PROTECTION ARE NOT LOST BY A COMBINED UNIT UNLESS SPECIFICALLY STATED!

SO, as stated before, IF ANY PART OF A COMBINED UNIT (which NOTHING in the rules implies that a COMBINED UNIT is not a UNIT COMPOSED OF DIFFERENT UNIT TYPES AND STILL MAINTAINS THEIR DIVERSITY ((Such as GK + Non GK)) INFACT THE BRB HAS MULTIPLE MENTIONS OF THE CONTRARY!) has "The Shrouding" (or any other GK special rule that would act similarly) then you must be able to comply with "The Shroudings" limitations before being able to fire at THE ENTIRE UNIT.

[IF the counter arguement is "A Unit of GKS + a Unit of Non-GKs are no longer a Unit of GKs, so therefor they do not benefit from 'The Shrouding' special rule" my rebuttal is such.

A Unit of Troops joined by an IC (Example, Sanguinary Priest, so an ELITES choice) still counts as scoring, even thought the RULES FOR SCORING UNITS STATES:


So therefor, even though the rules hold NO MENTION OF COMBINED UNITS (Of Troops + Non Troops) a Combined unit which contains troops, still counts as scoring.

So, if a unit of Troops + Non Troops still count as troops for scoring

A Unit of Grey Knights + Non-Grey Knights count as Grey Knights for the purposes of being targeted by shooting (and as such, are protected by "The Shrouding") ]

If you do not agree with the above [bracketed] text, I again request you provide proper justification for WHY it is wrong (as opposed to "Because I said so")

If you cannot do that then...

YOU GET NOTHING


~DAR

DAR just laid down the law so hard I think it broke. "Considered part of the Unit..." What kind of unit? Grey Knight Unit. Shrouding and Aegis powers activate!

Oh snap.

Monster Rain wrote:DAR just laid down the law so hard I think it broke. "Considered part of the Unit..." What kind of unit? Grey Knight Unit. Shrouding and Aegis powers activate!

Oh snap.

Except the unit is no longer a Grey Knights unit.

Gwar! wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:DAR just laid down the law so hard I think it broke. "Considered part of the Unit..." What kind of unit? Grey Knight Unit. Shrouding and Aegis powers activate!

Oh snap.

Except the unit is no longer a Grey Knights unit.

Prove it, without proof, its just "hot air"

~Edit~

Dear Gwar:

The RAW section of IC's joining other units, which specifies that if the IC has moved, but the Joined unit does not, the Joined unit does not count as shooting, but the IC, whom according to you is now a member of the "Combined unit" instead of still a "Grey Kmight unit", does count as moving...

The rule for Heavy Weapons SPECIFICALLY SAYS if ANY model of a unit with a "Heavy" weapon moves, the entire unit counts as moving.


~~~
IC joins a unit that did not move, but the IC did.

Rules for IC state the 'joined unit' does NOT count as moving but the CHARACTER does

Rules for Heavy weapons state that if any model of a unit has moved they all count has moved.

SYNTAX ERROR!

~~~

Also, see "Units of Troops with an IC joined still counting as scoring"(In order to count as scoring, you must be a Unit of Troops)

Sincerely,
~DAR

Grey Knight squad are not "units containing", they are defined "units", though?

Also, even if the Grey Knights cannot be targeted, for example, in a multi unit the other models CAN be for the same reasons?

Except for the actual AoE prohibited bit or is that the model?

GAME OVER.

Continue?

kirsanth wrote:
Also, even if the Grey Knights cannot be targeted, for example, in a multi unit the other models CAN be for the same reasons?

As far as the first part of your post... I am sorry, but I can't really tell what you are tying to say (GK squads are not units? idk about that, but it may be due to a typo or something...)

however the second part of your question can be easily answered.

"Even if the grey knights cannot be targeted"

well, IF "The Shrouding" did not specifically state otherwise, then yes, you would be correct.

however, if you look at the 3rd underline from my post (on the shrouding) you will see WHY the "Rest of the multi-unit: cannot be targeted". The previous sentence states that ONLY if the Grey Knights are spotted can the unit conduct normal firing.

Aegis would work the same way, if for instance, the multi unit were the target of "Doom" and the "Meta-Unit" of GKs pass their Aegis save ((The mini psychic hood thing)) then the Power fails. (so it would fail on the other members as well.)

I cannot refute what you are saying because nothing in what you have said actually proves Nos's assertions wrong.

Further, you are asking for proof, but the burden is on you (which you have not met other than by creating a Frankenstein's monster of vaguely related rules references and selected excerpts). It is, in fact, impossible to prove something does not exist - which is the burden you are trying to put on other posters.

Lets go through your bullets..

IC are units - Yes? no one debated this, what was contested is that they retain a distinction when joined to form this ideas of a 'combined unit'.

Shooting reference - Counting as not moving for a specific set of models does not constitute separate units. This is an irrelevant point.

Special Rules - You seem to think everyone claims the GK loses special rules, I don't think anyone has claimed that. In general if you examine the special rules that are 'lost' they are limited to parameters that influence the entire unit and not just the IC.

Wording of Shrouding - You posted this before - operative statement is unit of grey knights. Cool, we all agree a unit of grey knights gets to be shrouded. Now you need to prove an IC joined to a non GK unit is a unit of GK...

Part of unit - Okay I agree they are part of the unit - a unit that is not a unit of GK, a unit that is a unit of one GK and something else. Maybe this distinction appears later?

Nope I do not see that, in fact here is my favorite part of the argument...

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
So therefor, even though the rules hold NO MENTION OF COMBINED UNITS ...

Interesting, so where does this combined unit idea come from? Right, you made it up because it has no basis in actual fact.


Be careful when you taunt someone, it is likely to end up in a dakka vacation for you.

DAR - erm, so please:

1) prove that joined doesnt mean "join". Oh wait, PART OF the unit was in the quotes. Try again with both.

2) YOu do realise that when an IC joins a unit, it is an exception to the normal rules? You are seizing on an exception to the normal rules and holding it as "proof" that ICs are different to the unit they join.

Nope.

3) Noone stated that Shrouding is lost. Try again.

Shrouding does not apply as it requires you to TARGET a UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS.

4) I am NOT Targetting a unit of GK; as proven above I am targetting the combined unit.

I am not, in fact, ALLOWED to target GK within the unit as I do not have permission to target a component of the unit - I am targetting the combined unit, as the rules for shooting require.

5) You confuse unit type and unit name (Troops is a unit designation, unit type is Infantry or similar; neither have anything to do with whether you are a unit of Grey Knights.) - Apples compared to Green, for example - and try to use this as "proof"?

LOL!

You still have nothing. You do realise that? How about rebutting the actual rulebook quotes which require that the IC is PART OF THE UNIT.

You can't, but please try.

calypso2ts wrote: I cannot refute what you are saying because nothing in what you have said actually proves Nos's assertions wrong.

You've yet to even answer my main question...

Does a unit of Troops joined by an IC count as scoring?

calypso2ts wrote:
Further, you are asking for proof, but the burden is on you (which you have not met other than by creating a Frankenstein's monster of vaguely related rules references and selected excerpts). It is, in fact, impossible to prove something does not exist - which is the burden you are trying to put on other posters.

Guilty until proven innocent eh? Ok, I'll buy into that "logic" and respond with "Read the rules I listed as evidence as the "Burden of Proof". If you think that the rules for Independent Characters Joining other units, the rules for what happens to ICs and the Units they join's special rules when being joined, and the special rule "The Shrouding" (among other things) are "Vaguely related rules references" to the question of "Does a unit which is joined by an IC with the Grey Knight special rule (Or a unit with the Grey Knight special rule is joined by an IC without it) still gain the benefits of "The Shrouding" " then I really don't know what to say...

calypso2ts wrote:
Lets go through your bullets..

IC are units - Yes? no one debated this, what was contested is that they retain a distinction when joined to form this ideas of a 'combined unit'.

It was debated previously that a GK-Hero is not a "Unit of Grey Knights", I provided the actual wording of the rule to ease any concerns that "an IC is not a Unit".

calypso2ts wrote:
Shooting reference - Counting as not moving for a specific set of models does not constitute separate units. This is an irrelevant point.

I didn't think I would have to include this... but ok, why not!



So are you saying that the rule-book implies that ICs are not considered a "Model in the combined unit" or that instead, just because 1 unit of the combined unit (the IC) moved, the other unit (The unit that did not move) is TREATED SEPARATELY and thus NOT punished.


Special Rules - You seem to think everyone claims the GK loses special rules, I don't think anyone has claimed that. In general if you examine the special rules that are 'lost' they are limited to parameters that influence the entire unit and not just the IC.

I'll say it just one more time. Shrouding is not a USR so no rules about USRs mean anything. USR stands for Universal Special Rule meaning a special rule that is common to at least 2 different Codices. Shrouding would, if anything, be covered under a Specific Special Rules section. Where would you find that section? Not in the BRB because that just covers general rules so you must look to the Codex where the rule is found. The rule, in this case says that it only works when you target a unit of GKs.
You can't have it both ways, the unit can not be both a unit of GK and a unit of something else and claim the protection of the GK without allowing your opponent to target the vulnerability of the other unit. The rule specifies that only GK are effected so if you don't target the GK the shrouding doesn't work. So, either the unit is an almalgam of GK and X which does not constitute a unit of GK (by definition of GK+X) or it is a unit of GK and X where X can be targeted seperately and shrouding doesn't apply since can opt not to target the GK. For your interpretation to work you would have to have permission (since the rules are permissive) for the rule to work with non-GK units that include GK figures. There isn't any such rule therefore you can't do it.