Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Well whatever the truth is, Alpha Legion's plan must be working, I mean just look at this thread!

Confusion, misdirection, accusation and much hand-waving!

Filthy traitors, secret loyalists, or victims of retcon and lousy writing?

If this thread gets locked, it was all part of their plan I'm sure!!!

Manchu wrote:@BOS:

Originally, the protagonists were good guys who fought bad guys.

Then they were good guys who fought bad guys who -TWIST!- eventually became good guys.

Then they were good guys who -TWIST!- were actually the bad guys and they fought bad guys who -TWIST!- were actually the good guys.

Then they were bad guys who -TWIST!- actually wanted to be good guys and instead of fighting bad guys they -TWIST!- fought guys even worse than them but sometimes -TWIST!- had to fight the good guys who -TWIST!- eventually worked with them grudgingly.

TWIST TWIST TWIST TWIST

This is the evolution of hackwriting, the eclipse of characterization by storyline. The best example I can think of from recent TV is the tremendously overrated Battlestar Galactica. In 40k, you'll find that Abnett is squarely aligned with this school of thought and Demski-Bowden looks poised to follow him.

Bad guys who are bad guys are not boring when handled by talented writers. Supplying TWIST! after TWIST! after TWIST! does not make something more interesting. Just ask M. Night Shyamalan.

What a Twist!

The Alpha Legion may have had killed the Imperium humans to help the Imperium at one point, but now they are just evil for being evil. It may be silly, but GW has proved time and time again that Chaos in all forms are the goofy moustanched saturday morning cartoon villans of 40k. For the Most recent example: see Cadia.

Manchu wrote:@BOS:

Originally, the protagonists were good guys who fought bad guys.

Then they were good guys who fought bad guys who -TWIST!- eventually became good guys.

Then they were good guys who -TWIST!- were actually the bad guys and they fought bad guys who -TWIST!- were actually the good guys.

Then they were bad guys who -TWIST!- actually wanted to be good guys and instead of fighting bad guys they -TWIST!- fought guys even worse than them but sometimes -TWIST!- had to fight the good guys who -TWIST!- eventually worked with them grudgingly.

TWIST TWIST TWIST TWIST

This is the evolution of hackwriting, the eclipse of characterization by storyline. The best example I can think of from recent TV is the tremendously overrated Battlestar Galactica. In 40k, you'll find that Abnett is squarely aligned with this school of thought and Demski-Bowden looks poised to follow him.

Bad guys who are bad guys are not boring when handled by talented writers. Supplying TWIST! after TWIST! after TWIST! does not make something more interesting. Just ask M. Night Shyamalan.

Dude you just slagged my favorite show and writer in one breath.

Fraid I have to agree with BearersofSalvation. Villians with interesting motives and relatable backstorys are the difference between great fiction and total crap. Your confusing "twists" with character development. Cartoonish supervilliany is not compelling fiction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

inquisitorfaust wrote:I have a personal conspiracy theory about the Alphas, and I think it fits the facts, but then again who doesn't?

Anyway, it goes like this.

After the events of Legion, the Alphas get together, talk it out, and decide to try to get Horus's trust and get close to him so they can take him out before the climactic showdown on Earth. This obviously fails, but explains the way they didn't seem to go for the throat as much as they could have during the Heresy itself. Meanwhile, to prove their loyalty, they're hanging out in warrior-cults, doing blood rituals, etc. all to "proove their loyalty" 'cause Horus knows how the Alphas roll about as well as anyone else.

This backfires. A lot of the Alphas start to seriously go over to Chaos as the taint sets in.

After the Heresy, the Alphas slowly regroup outside the Eye of Terror and try to decide what to do next from here. This is where it all goes to hell, and Alpha Legion civil war breaks out. You remember the Index Astartes story with the battle the Ultramarines deny ever fighting? That was the Alpha Legion version of Istvaan 3 where the loyalists and the heretics of the Alpha Legion break company and settle their differences in classic Warhammer fashion. The Ultras don't remember it because they were never there. After that fight, the renegades become the vile heretics we know and love/hate in the 41st millenium, and the surviving loyalists probably vanish into the many chapters created in the 2nd founding as deep cover, throwing away their previous identity as they continue to fight for humanity.

So, really nothing more than a theory that happens to fit the facts, but I like it and it hasn't been disproven yet, so I hope it continues to fit the facts.

nice. That's pretty much exactly the path I hope the HH books take.
I like it when the smaller battles acts as a parable of the greater conflict itself.

IMO, Surprising twists are only hack writing when they are inconsistent with previously written material and it doesn't hold up on the second read through. Otherwise you end up with ridiculousness like condemning the entire genre of detective stories because the whole point of the tale is to lead up to the *TWIST* at the end of who the killer really is. Twisting stories neither prevent, nor guarantee any particular level of quality.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

Manchu wrote:@BOS:

Originally, the protagonists were good guys who fought bad guys.

Then they were good guys who fought bad guys who -TWIST!- eventually became good guys.

Then they were good guys who -TWIST!- were actually the bad guys and they fought bad guys who -TWIST!- were actually the good guys.

Then they were bad guys who -TWIST!- actually wanted to be good guys and instead of fighting bad guys they -TWIST!- fought guys even worse than them but sometimes -TWIST!- had to fight the good guys who -TWIST!- eventually worked with them grudgingly.

TWIST TWIST TWIST TWIST

This is the evolution of hackwriting, the eclipse of characterization by storyline. The best example I can think of from recent TV is the tremendously overrated Battlestar Galactica. In 40k, you'll find that Abnett is squarely aligned with this school of thought and Demski-Bowden looks poised to follow him.

Bad guys who are bad guys are not boring when handled by talented writers. Supplying TWIST! after TWIST! after TWIST! does not make something more interesting. Just ask M. Night Shyamalan.

What a Twist!

The Alpha Legion may have had killed the Imperium humans to help the Imperium at one point, but now they are just evil for being evil. It may be silly, but GW has proved time and time again that Chaos in all forms are the goofy moustanched saturday morning cartoon villans of 40k. For the Most recent example: see Cadia.

That's why Faust's idea is more interesting. The Luna Wolves trilogy did a good job showing that unlike what had previously been portrayed in the background materials the Primarchs didn't just flip a light switch and suddenly all Luna Wolves, Death Guard, World Eaters and EC are now traitors. You can't just betray everything your Legion ever stood for and not get a few dissenters; primarch or not. Especially when many in the Legions were Terrans and actually fought alongside the Emperor before even meeting their Primarchs. Every Legion had its own little mini-Istvaan.

Although actually after saying all that if there's one legion that didn't it would be the Alpha Legion. They are unique in that they were created and got their Primarch right away so their loyalty to The Emperor was always tenous at best.

Your confusing "twists" with character development.

Nah, that's what I'm actually criticizing.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Cartoonish supervilliany is not compelling fiction.

That's just saying gak is gak. Of course "cartoonish supervillainy" is no good. But I don't think being out-and-out evil is the same thing as "cartoonish supervillainy." CSM have plausible reasons to believe what they believe (or disbelieve, more accurately). But that doesn't make them noble. Basically, I don't need my bad guys to be somehow morally superior to the good guys. And that's what a lot of people seem to want out of CSM. That's why people are so obsessed with insisting that the Alpha Legion and Night Lords are not Chaos-worshipers . . . when both of them include Daemon Princes? Really? Just because they don't build Chaos churches like the Word Bearers doesn't mean they aren't squarely on the side of Chaos. But if you tell people that, they just come back with the "oh, those are just certain factions/individuals in that Legion who don't represent the whole Legion." And then there's this "who knows what the Alpha Legion is really up to?" Well, I do. They're shuffling around the galaxy spreading the good news of Chaos. No twist necessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

inquisitorfaust wrote:Twisting stories neither prevent, nor guarantee any particular level of quality.

Yeah, I know. But I'm talking about stories where TWISTS! are a substitute for good writing.

Manchu wrote:

Your confusing "twists" with character development.

Nah, that's what I'm actually criticizing.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Cartoonish supervilliany is not compelling fiction.

That's just saying gak is gak. Of course "cartoonish supervillainy" is no good. But I don't think being out-and-out evil is the same thing as "cartoonish supervillainy." CSM have plausible reasons to believe what they believe (or disbelieve, more accurately). But that doesn't make them noble. Basically, I don't need my bad guys to be somehow morally superior to the good guys. And that's what a lot of people seem to want out of CSM. That's why people are so obsessed with insisting that the Alpha Legion and Night Lords are not Chaos-worshipers . . . when both of them include Daemon Princes? Really? Just because they don't build Chaos churches like the Word Bearers doesn't mean they aren't squarely on the side of Chaos. But if you tell people that, they just come back with the "oh, those are just certain factions/individuals in that Legion who don't represent the whole Legion." And then there's this "who knows what the Alpha Legion is really up to?" Well, I do. They're shuffling around the galaxy spreading the good news of Chaos. No twist necessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

inquisitorfaust wrote:Twisting stories neither prevent, nor guarantee any particular level of quality.

Yeah, I know. But I'm talking about stories where TWISTS! are a substitute for good writing.

Yes I think we basically agree. (well not on Abnett and BSG). If a writer has made his villian more likable than the hero you could argue that he has actually failed. You need to make your villian compelling yet still despicable. A waffling pro wrestling style villian makes neither an interesting hero or villian usually.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:If a writer has made his villian more likable than the hero you could argue that he has actually failed.

Darth Vader?

You need to make your villian compelling yet still despicable.

This is exactly why I like the Exalted from Soul Hunter (but less in Throne of Lies) better than Talos.

Abnett and BSG are both miles above the usual trip that passes for scifi writers and scifi programs. But they're not worthy of the worship they elicit. You can see this from your own thread when you consider that it was Abnett who wrote Legion.

I never understood the big deal with Vader. Like he's cool cause he wears all black or something. Nobody likes Anakin but suddenly when he's vader he's cool? He's the same whiny, needy dork he always was just with a deeper voice.

Manchu wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

inquisitorfaust wrote:Twisting stories neither prevent, nor guarantee any particular level of quality.

Yeah, I know. But I'm talking about stories where TWISTS! are a substitute for good writing.

In that case, we are mostly in agreement, except that I actually enjoy Abnett's work in Legion. It didn't seem poorly written to me at all. I am willing to concede that most of my reading is 40k/warcraft/starcraft stuff and I go through a lot of turds looking for the gems, so maybe my standards are lower than yours, but in that small pond Abnett and ADB are the local big fish imo.

Haven't read The First Heretic yet so I will wait and see how it goes.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I never understood the big deal with Vader. Like he's cool cause he wears all black or something. Nobody likes Anakin but suddenly when he's vader he's cool? He's the same whiny, needy dork he always was just with a deeper voice.

To be fair, a Majority of Star Wars Characters are whiny, needy dorks.

Yes, I guess I basically agree with you faust. I consider Legion to be some of Abnett's weaker work but its not like its bad just kinda boring. Probably becasue it suffers from some of the "Good-Bad guy" syndrome with John Gramaticus we are bemoaning Manchu!

Well then It seems like we're all in agreement then....that's nice. The interweb must have a bug or something.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

What a Twist!

The Alpha Legion may have had killed the Imperium humans to help the Imperium at one point, but now they are just evil for being evil. It may be silly, but GW has proved time and time again that Chaos in all forms are the goofy moustanched saturday morning cartoon villans of 40k. For the Most recent example: see Cadia.

That's true...but only if you disregard their fluff and make up your own.

Again, their thing isn't that they're secretly loyal to the Imperium. They're not. But they're also not fighting for Chaos' ultimate victory.

Well the thing is, and now everyone can start laughing at me if they want...

I actually think the Emperor created the Primarchs for Chaos to steal. He setup the Imperium for the Horus Heresy on purpose. For the good of humanity of course... That's why he ignored the warnings. It wasn't out of love for his sons. Yes, they were his creations, and mighty ones at that. But they were built to be a distraction for Chaos, while the human race grows mentally, and becomes New Man. He sensed what had become of the Eldar, and needed a plan to avoid thier fate.

The Emperor is not a nice guy. He knew that the human race would suffer greatly, but that the only way to survive the transformation to New Man was by constant war and pain for people. With the Imperium on a constant war footing, all manner of injustice can be tollerated and condoned. If he had simply contiued to kick but, humanity would have had peace, but left itself open to Chaos. With war, the Inquistion can hunt, round up, and contain the psychers that would destroy humanity during the transformation.

After the warp storms (Slannish birth by Eldar) abated, the Emperor expanded Human civilization to cover most of the gallaxy. Humanity, and the Emperor, are in a holding pattern, while humanity grows and transforms.


Within this framework, the Alpha Legion has a job to to. As I posted before, I believe them to be the control rods of the Imperium, during mans transformation to New Man. Whether the Alpha Legion Primarchs realize this or not, I don't know. Maybe the Emperor gave them special instructions. Maybe it's in thier genes. Certainly the warbands would have no idea what was happening, both from a collective and individual basis. Nobody really knows what the Alpha Legion Primarch(s) really think. Nobody can know the real reason, or the jig is up, and Chaos will unite. The Alpha Legion creates the think and double think to protect it's secret. It uses Chaos to futher it's own ends, and avoid suspician.

Warprat

Given the somewhat heavy-handed nature of most of the writing in the HH books, I fully expect to see the Heresy played out in detail as Brother LITERALLY goes against BROTHER...

For obvious reasons, I'm hoping that Omegon is the loser!

Alpharius wrote:Sadly, or not, all conjecture.

I'm fairly sure GW/BL/DA will never tell us exactly what's going on, so, it will be up to us, and everyone will be wrong and right at the same time!

(Does current background even have The Legion at the Dropsite Massacre?)

The reality (ha!) of it is more likely that The Legion thought they knew what was best for Humanity, and maybe for the Imperium, and it didn't quite work out as planned.

"Too clever by half", yes?

And now, some factions are 'loyal', some are 'traitor' and the whole thing's a mess!

There is no such thing as a loyal Alpha Legion marine simply for the fact that none have returned to the service of the Imperium. Traitorous Excommunicatus is how they will forever be viewed.

Manchu wrote:More than merely human emotions are reflected in the warp.

Well quite. It's the thoughts, feelings, urges and emotions of all creatures possessing souls.

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Sadly, or not, all conjecture.

I'm fairly sure GW/BL/DA will never tell us exactly what's going on, so, it will be up to us, and everyone will be wrong and right at the same time!

(Does current background even have The Legion at the Dropsite Massacre?)

The reality (ha!) of it is more likely that The Legion thought they knew what was best for Humanity, and maybe for the Imperium, and it didn't quite work out as planned.

"Too clever by half", yes?

And now, some factions are 'loyal', some are 'traitor' and the whole thing's a mess!

There is no such thing as a loyal Alpha Legion marine simply for the fact that none have returned to the service of the Imperium. Traitorous Excommunicatus is how they will forever be viewed.

Yes and no.

That's why I said 'loyal' yes?

That's why 'For the Emperor!' may mean exactly that.

Again, I get the feeling that there's a certain amount of "Fingers in Ears" and "Intentional Tweaking" going on, so, this is probably enough for me now.

Until we get a THIRD Dark Angel book, then maybe we'll get a sequel to LEGION.

inquisitorfaust wrote:You remember the Index Astartes story with the battle the Ultramarines deny ever fighting?

Not a bad theory.

Where is the fluff on that battle located?

Warprat wrote:Well the thing is, and now everyone can start laughing at me if they want...

I actually think the Emperor created the Primarchs for Chaos to steal. He setup the Imperium for the Horus Heresy on purpose. For the good of humanity of course... That's why he ignored the warnings. It wasn't out of love for his sons. Yes, they were his creations, and mighty ones at that. But they were built to be a distraction for Chaos, while the human race grows mentally, and becomes New Man. He sensed what had become of the Eldar, and needed a plan to avoid thier fate.

The Emperor is not a nice guy. He knew that the human race would suffer greatly, but that the only way to survive the transformation to New Man was by constant war and pain for people. With the Imperium on a constant war footing, all manner of injustice can be tollerated and condoned. If he had simply contiued to kick but, humanity would have had peace, but left itself open to Chaos. With war, the Inquistion can hunt, round up, and contain the psychers that would destroy humanity during the transformation.

After the warp storms (Slannish birth by Eldar) abated, the Emperor expanded Human civilization to cover most of the gallaxy. Humanity, and the Emperor, are in a holding pattern, while humanity grows and transforms.


Within this framework, the Alpha Legion has a job to to. As I posted before, I believe them to be the control rods of the Imperium, during mans transformation to New Man. Whether the Alpha Legion Primarchs realize this or not, I don't know. Maybe the Emperor gave them special instructions. Maybe it's in thier genes. Certainly the warbands would have no idea what was happening, both from a collective and individual basis. Nobody really knows what the Alpha Legion Primarch(s) really think. Nobody can know the real reason, or the jig is up, and Chaos will unite. The Alpha Legion creates the think and double think to protect it's secret. It uses Chaos to futher it's own ends, and avoid suspician.

Warprat

Don't think so. The "new men" as you call them are psychics. So this doesn't make sense. Also The Imperium doesn't ned to be on a war footing for inquisitors to go around plucking up psykers in fact peace would probably be easier. Mankind is constantly teetering on the brink of extinction and one of the main Reasons is Chaos so I don't think the Emperor was hoping for that.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I never understood the big deal with Vader. Like he's cool cause he wears all black or something. Nobody likes Anakin but suddenly when he's vader he's cool? He's the same whiny, needy dork he always was just with a deeper voice.

So did you watch Star Wars and Empire AFTER the crappy three?

Until those came out, Vader was never, and could never have been whiny. He was a bad ass.
Lucas ruined his character with crappy direction and story.

really? Are you sure he's not a sniveling twit at the beck and call of The Emperor who ruined his life?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Don't think so. The "new men" as you call them are psychics. So this doesn't make sense. Also The Imperium doesn't ned to be on a war footing for inquisitors to go around plucking up psykers in fact peace would probably be easier. Mankind is constantly teetering on the brink of extinction and one of the main Reasons is Chaos so I don't think the Emperor was hoping for that.

The fluff I remember was that man was evolving into a psychic race, but wasn't ready yet.
The Emperor was attempting to guide them through the transition when the Heresy happened.

If things had went how they were going, there would never have been an Inquisition.
And Mankind would have developed into a psychic race, instead of culling the ability out of the species, as they are doing.

Yes exactly. Seems to me having every human as a psyker would be a disaster. There'd be a demonic incursion on every street corner!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes exactly. Seems to me having every human as a psyker would be a disaster. There'd be a demonic incursion on every street corner!

So there are demonic incursions wherever a psyker is?
Maybe this "new man" theory aims at trained psykers, such as we see freely venturing in the Imperium today (M41).

skrulnik wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Don't think so. The "new men" as you call them are psychics. So this doesn't make sense. Also The Imperium doesn't ned to be on a war footing for inquisitors to go around plucking up psykers in fact peace would probably be easier. Mankind is constantly teetering on the brink of extinction and one of the main Reasons is Chaos so I don't think the Emperor was hoping for that.

The fluff I remember was that man was evolving into a psychic race, but wasn't ready yet.
The Emperor was attempting to guide them through the transition when the Heresy happened.

If things had went how they were going, there would never have been an Inquisition.
And Mankind would have developed into a psychic race, instead of culling the ability out of the species, as they are doing.

Well. they have been testing everyone for the last 10,000 years, and sending the rejects off on the Black Ships. That should be enough time to eliminate the unwanted genetic traits. But humanity is evolving, so they can barely keep it under control. Just like using pesticide on bugs and whatnot, in real life, a few survive to become stronger and more resilient. The process builds.

And the Emperor in a perfect position to influence human evolution to New Man, should man be evolving, by monitoring the psychic potential in individuals, and helping them find each other to mate. Perhaps he has minions who do this? We really can't know this, but it's plausable. For obvious real world reasons, Games Workshop would want to tread lightly here...

Or, maybe it IS simply the effect of Chaos, working to infiltrate into more psychers, but in the process causing humanity to explosivly evolve. The Inquisition, failing to keep up with the pace, as the contagion rolls on century after century. The fact that the Inquistion can barely keep up, and is actually falling behind is well known within the Inquisition. Making them all the more frantic.

No matter the reasons, humanity is becomming more and more psychic. The Emperor could either stay on the sidelines or get involved. I choose to believe he is involved.

With the Emperor spending so much time in the warp, he is in the perfect position to protect the human phychics powerful enough to stay consious after death, and recuit them into his army in the Immaterium. As humanity evolves, his army becomes stronger, and Chaos weaker.

Lately, the Legion of the Dammed has been making an appearence, so perhaps he now has enough forces to begin active incursions from the Immaterium into the physical universe. So, maybe it is not so far fetched of an idea. It's interesting to note that all attempts by the Inquisition to learn of these events have been seemingly blocked.

Warprat

1hadhq wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes exactly. Seems to me having every human as a psyker would be a disaster. There'd be a demonic incursion on every street corner!

So there are demonic incursions wherever a psyker is?
Maybe this "new man" theory aims at trained psykers, such as we see freely venturing in the Imperium today (M41).

Yes, every psyker is a potential gateway for the evil warp denizens. That's why the inquisition pursues them so doggedly. If every human was a psyker then even if only 1% of them "turned to the dark side" to coin a pharse then humanity would easily be destroyed. This is why The Emperor purged psychics.
Look up something called the "Enslaver Plague" for one example of how this has already happened.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes exactly. Seems to me having every human as a psyker would be a disaster. There'd be a demonic incursion on every street corner!

So there are demonic incursions wherever a psyker is?
Maybe this "new man" theory aims at trained psykers, such as we see freely venturing in the Imperium today (M41).

Yes, every psyker is a potential gateway for the evil warp denizens. That's why the inquisition pursues them so doggedly. If every human was a psyker then even if only 1% of them "turned to the dark side" to coin a phrase then humanity would easily be destroyed. This is why The Emperor purged psychics.
Look up something called the "Enslaver Plague" for one example of how this has already happened.

Eldar=psychic abilities
Orks=psychic abilities
Humans=psychic abilites

Its the level of the latent abilities that matters.
Abilities need control,yes.

So why do you willfully miss the point of trained psykers?
What happens if 1 sanctioned psyker fails but other sanctioned psykers are available to stop him/her? 1% vs 99%

I think the point of the "new man" theory is a change of power and control.

1hadhq wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes exactly. Seems to me having every human as a psyker would be a disaster. There'd be a demonic incursion on every street corner!

So there are demonic incursions wherever a psyker is?
Maybe this "new man" theory aims at trained psykers, such as we see freely venturing in the Imperium today (M41).

Yes, every psyker is a potential gateway for the evil warp denizens. That's why the inquisition pursues them so doggedly. If every human was a psyker then even if only 1% of them "turned to the dark side" to coin a phrase then humanity would easily be destroyed. This is why The Emperor purged psychics.
Look up something called the "Enslaver Plague" for one example of how this has already happened.

Eldar=psychic abilities
Orks=psychic abilities
Humans=psychic abilites

Its the level of the latent abilities that matters.
Abilities need control,yes.

So why do you willfully miss the point of trained psykers?
What happens if 1 sanctioned psyker fails but other sanctioned psykers are available to stop him/her? 1% vs 99%

I think the point of the "new man" theory is a change of power and control.

Look dude, besides that Galaxy being destroyed by Enslavers the eldar who are not all psychic but have a strong warp presence once again destroyed the galaxy in their heyday. Basically anything to do with the Warp = Bad Times.

skrulnik wrote:

inquisitorfaust wrote:You remember the Index Astartes story with the battle the Ultramarines deny ever fighting?

Not a bad theory.

Where is the fluff on that battle located?

That's from the Index Astartes article on the Alpha Legion that was printed years ago in White Dwarf and may have been included in a compilation book as well. These things were from... mid 3rd eddition I think? Old enough to be obscure, but not so far back that it's all but ret-conned.