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MeanGreenstompa and Chibi have it.

"Hey look what I just bought, isn't it neat...oh yeah that is a cool model" does not = "Hey buy warmachine..... GW models suck..yeah I totally agree."

The whole "Stores in the US can do whatever they want because it's our Bidness" routine is old. We all know that. That doesn't mean us customers cannot complain when a business goes draconian. The customer is always right...remember?

GG

When I worked at GW there was the rule that you had to be doing something hobby related to be in the shop. So painting, modelling, army building, gaming. That way when someone new comes into the shop they see what the hobby is like, not a bunch of teenagers (Yes I myself am a teenager) sitting round talking about how awesome Gears of War 2 (other games are available) is, and what-not.

Admittedly I myself would have been happy to talk about any range of different wargames, because honestly the more you know about the different games and armies that someone plays the easier it is to find the right new army/model for them to buy, or work on. Or even what kind of colour scheme to paint their new army.

My understanding of the OP is that they were just talking about the new model(s) they'd bought. Personally no problem with that, as long as it's not a lengthy debate about PP and all it's products and rules etc. (you know what I mean)

But then hey I was only a redshirt, and didn't particularily like working their anyway . . . but that's a different story . . . In the end, it's up to the employees discretion, personally I'm too nice, and there are some people that aren't as nice as me. But don't go and call Nazi on all of GW just because some employees aren't as nice as you wish. I'm sure you don't think the entirity of the human race are Nazis, just because a select few (a very small percentage) followed their ways.

So next time you think to pull the Nazi card, just think for a second, "Am I being too generalistic?"

Oshova

PS. That was ever so slightly longer than I first intended . . .

generalgrog wrote:MeanGreenstompa and Chibi have it.

"Hey look what I just bought, isn't it neat...oh yeah that is a cool model" does not = "Hey buy warmachine..... GW models suck..yeah I totally agree."

The whole "Stores in the US can do whatever they want because it's our Bidness" routine is old. We all know that. That doesn't mean us customers cannot complain when a business goes draconian. The customer is always right...remember?

You've never worked in retail, have you?

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

I have, however, seen them ask someone to please not bring Warmachine models in and then take up the painting space.

How do you know that is what happened in this case?

You are correct Kanners we don't know what happened so it is not really worth getting riled about.
If the member of staff was polite and or the OP wasn't flashing his warmachine around (oo-er missus) then there is no big deal either way imho.

Did I say that's what happened in this case?
No.
I replied to GeneralGrog's ridiculous remark about GW.
I've said nothing about the OP, in particular, outside of that there's probably more to the story than it seems.

And hell, even the OP doesn't make it seem like he was "threatened". He said that a GW employee told him and his friends, who were discussing a model that he bought at another shop, to please wait until they left the shop to continue their discussion.

Monster Rain wrote:

You've never worked in retail, have you?

You had me at retail...sir!

GG

This has happened to me as well, it infuriated me.

I had just come from my FLGS (which is about a mile or two away) after a D&D session
(Because I am cool like that). I was at the time finishing painting a miniature for our game and was talking to one of my buddies from the game about the session(during which another player had made a serious comment to the DM that the enemy leader could not see us at a distance of 20 squares away because we were like a thousand feet away! Still a running joke).

I could sense using my veteran instincts that the manager did not exactly like us talking about the game and instead of asking us to stop pulled one of those creepy lean in between us and say "You guys talking about Warhammer?", I decided to joke with him (he was the new manger at the time and the old manager had a great sense of humor, old habits die hard) and replied "No, we are discussing my taxes". He took this to offense I am guessing and walked away.

I was about to use one of the store washes, to give my model the final touch when he spotted me with his bale eye. He had locked target and like a savage lictor was upon me before I could react.

Apparently GW store washes can only touch the pure GW models and I had broken this holy law written in stone somewhere deep in GW's brainwash.... I mean training center. I apologized and asked if I could purchase the wash and use it, to which I got a look similar to that a commissar would give a guardman if he asked "couldn't we just talk with the Tau?".

I was then informed that I would be able to purchase the holy wash and use it in a heretical manner at home and that I would need to remove my non GW stuff from the store (the only reason I had it inside was because I drive a 99 mustang and my car's trunk is not exactly roomy, and I was actually going to give it to my buddy to hold until next session)

I did not purchase the wash, and with tactical genius equal to Creed himself, left the store and purchased alternative products for my FLGS to benefit what I felt was the greater good.

Did I say that's what happened in this case?
No.

To be fair mate no
but there was an inference, which in the context of other posts could perpetuate the impression that is what happened.

I have worked retail, and discussed other shops and products with customers. Even suggested where they could get stuff cheaper!

ITT:

OP claims he did nothing worthy of being kicked out.
Most people realise he probably did, in reality.
Arguments involving people who did realise and those that didn't ensue.
There is echoing laughter of ever-thirsting gods.
In the grim darkness of the future there is only war.

For all the talk about how people are projecting the behavior of the OP to be zealous shilling for PP, it seems that those same posters are also projecting the behavior of the employee in question.

Unless I'm mistaken, the employee simply asked that they take their conversation outside. It's a little odd, but certainly not worthy of adjectives such as "fascist" and "draconian."

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Did I say that's what happened in this case?
No.

To be fair mate no
but there was an inference, which in the context of other posts could perpetuate the impression that is what happened.

I have worked retail, and discussed other shops and products with customers. Even suggested where they could get stuff cheaper!

No implication, whatsoever.

I flatout said that "in these kinds of situations, it's likely there's more to this than what we're getting".
I also said that GW's well within their rights as a privately owned store to ask you to leave, without any real explanation as to why.

Will most GWs do this? Probably not, provided it's a group of veterans who are actually paying customers or who've established a rapport with the employees.

If it's some spanker who shows up every week to use the painting space, store's paints, etc...and yet hasn't ever bought any models from that shop?
Far more likely to get asked to leave.

Jon Touchdown wrote:This has happened to me as well, it infuriated me.

I had just come from my FLGS (which is about a mile or two away) after a D&D session
(Because I am cool like that). I was at the time finishing painting a miniature for our game and was talking to one of my buddies from the game about the session(during which another player had made a serious comment to the DM that the enemy leader could not see us at a distance of 20 squares away because we were like a thousand feet away! Still a running joke).

I could sense using my veteran instincts that the manager did not exactly like us talking about the game and instead of asking us to stop pulled one of those creepy lean in between us and say "You guys talking about Warhammer?", I decided to joke with him (he was the new manger at the time and the old manager had a great sense of humor, old habits die hard) and replied "No, we are discussing my taxes". He took this to offense I am guessing and walked away.

I was about to use one of the store washes, to give my model the final touch when he spotted me with his bale eye. He had locked target and like a savage lictor was upon me before I could react.

Apparently GW store washes can only touch the pure GW models and I had broken this holy law written in stone somewhere deep in GW's brainwash.... I mean training center. I apologized and asked if I could purchase the wash and use it, to which I got a look similar to that a commissar would give a guardman if he asked "couldn't we just talk with the Tau?".

I was then informed that I would be able to purchase the holy wash and use it in a heretical manner at home and that I would need to remove my non GW stuff from the store (the only reason I had it inside was because I drive a 99 mustang and my car's trunk is not exactly roomy, and I was actually going to give it to my buddy to hold until next session)

I did not purchase the wash, and with tactical genius equal to Creed himself, left the store and purchased alternative products for my FLGS to benefit what I felt was the greater good.

So you were kind of a smart ass to a new employee, tried to paint a non-GW model with store paints, and then didn't buy anything.
Yeah, that's rough.

Jon Touchdown wrote:This has happened to me as well, it infuriated me.

I had just come from my FLGS (which is about a mile or two away) after a D&D session
(Because I am cool like that). I was at the time finishing painting a miniature for our game and was talking to one of my buddies from the game about the session(during which another player had made a serious comment to the DM that the enemy leader could not see us at a distance of 20 squares away because we were like a thousand feet away! Still a running joke).

I could sense using my veteran instincts that the manager did not exactly like us talking about the game and instead of asking us to stop pulled one of those creepy lean in between us and say "You guys talking about Warhammer?", I decided to joke with him (he was the new manger at the time and the old manager had a great sense of humor, old habits die hard) and replied "No, we are discussing my taxes". He took this to offense I am guessing and walked away.

I was about to use one of the store washes, to give my model the final touch when he spotted me with his bale eye. He had locked target and like a savage lictor was upon me before I could react.

Apparently GW store washes can only touch the pure GW models and I had broken this holy law written in stone somewhere deep in GW's brainwash.... I mean training center. I apologized and asked if I could purchase the wash and use it, to which I got a look similar to that a commissar would give a guardman if he asked "couldn't we just talk with the Tau?".

I was then informed that I would be able to purchase the holy wash and use it in a heretical manner at home and that I would need to remove my non GW stuff from the store (the only reason I had it inside was because I drive a 99 mustang and my car's trunk is not exactly roomy, and I was actually going to give it to my buddy to hold until next session)

I did not purchase the wash, and with tactical genius equal to Creed himself, left the store and purchased alternative products for my FLGS to benefit what I felt was the greater good.

LOVE IT! You put some definite effort into that sir, and you deserve a pat on the back. =D

Also I find it funny how D&D was how GW got started, and now just because they went their different ways the manager is annoyed by his employers ex (as it were) =p


Oshova

Kanners (language old thing )

Exactly,
In these kinds of situations implies the case in question.
Again we don't know what passed off so it is as Polonius says a tad unfair to criticise either party

With regard to a general question of customer behaviour I totally agree and I see now it is to what you are refering.
It would be bad form to behave that way, and the staff in the right to ask them to leave imho.

plastictrees wrote:
So you were kind of a smart ass to a new employee, tried to paint a non-GW model with store paints, and then didn't buy anything.
Yeah, that's rough.

If the store manager was giving him, a paying costomer, the hairy eyeball every 10 seconds, I think he'd be completely within his right to be less than civil. This manager was obviously being a complete prick, and deserved the reaction he got.

Honestly, I think saying "You can't talk about anything except GW products in a GW store!" is a ridiculous rule. It really is like saying "You will be kicked out of MacDonalds if you so much as mention Burger King."

Again, I want to ask how many of these stories involve "paying" customers, and not people that went to the store to paint, play, or hang out.

Think we already had that analogy once.
In the case of using in store wash on a D&D figure was it one of the old Citadel ones?
If not the analogy ought be:

It is like going into McDonalds with a Burger King and putting McRelish on your whopper.

muppet slayer wrote:I supose but i am a loyal, and have been for many years, gw customer. surrley a convosation could not do that much damage.

Instead of remaining blindly loyal, open a FLGS next door to them and offer all products at 10% normal cost. With the whole store owner discount you get when ordering, you can easily do so. Then have all those over wonderful miniatures for other games then add other stuff like board games and such. Then laugh manically every day as you open the store. Follow by playing solitaire while you watch business soar.

juraigamer wrote:
Instead of remaining blindly loyal, open a FLGS next door to them and offer all products at 10% normal cost. With the whole store owner discount you get when ordering, you can easily do so. Then have all those over wonderful miniatures for other games then add other stuff like board games and such. Then laugh manically every day as you open the store. Follow by playing solitaire while you watch business soar.

+1

Especially to the maniacal laughing part.

Darth Bob wrote:

plastictrees wrote:
So you were kind of a smart ass to a new employee, tried to paint a non-GW model with store paints, and then didn't buy anything.
Yeah, that's rough.

If the store manager was giving him, a paying costomer, the hairy eyeball every 10 seconds, I think he'd be completely within his right to be less than civil. This manager was obviously being a complete prick, and deserved the reaction he got.

Honestly, I think saying "You can't talk about anything except GW products in a GW store!" is a ridiculous rule. It really is like saying "You will be kicked out of MacDonalds if you so much as mention Burger King."

No, you're totally right. How dare the store manager ask some random kid painting a non-GW model in his store what he's talking about. What a jerk. He's lucky that Jon Touchdown, the people's hero, didn't slash his tires.

These anecdotes are ridiculous. I've never been asked to leave a GW for talking about non-GW subject matter in over twenty years of going to GW stores in three different countries. These are A: isolated incidents that reflect purely on the employee and B: maybe, just maybe we aren't getting a complete picture from the random, anonymous people posting on the web.

I can't wait until some people grow up a bit and maybe are running a store and have some teenage knob-ends acting like animals in their store. I hope they think back to this very conversation.

Seriously.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/mall-security-all-up-in-girls-face,228/

Polonius wrote:For all the talk about how people are projecting the behavior of the OP to be zealous shilling for PP, it seems that those same posters are also projecting the behavior of the employee in question.

Unless I'm mistaken, the employee simply asked that they take their conversation outside. It's a little odd, but certainly not worthy of adjectives such as "fascist" and "draconian."

To be fair, I think Polonius is right. I did use rather harsh descriptors. I did this intentionally to make a point. I kind of figured people would get that.

GG

plastictrees wrote:
No, you're totally right. How dare the store manager ask some random kid painting a non-GW model in his store what he's talking about. What a jerk. He's lucky that Jon Touchdown, the people's hero, didn't slash his tires.

You get what you give. You act hostile towards someone, they're going to return the favor. I'm not saying he's in the right for painting a non-GW product in a GW store, but that's not what the manager brought up, did he? He asked him what he was "talking about"; I.E. repremanding someone for something that is the equivelent of reprimanding someone for talking about Burger King in a MacDonalds. Take the model out of the equation and the manager was still in the wrong, and was not showing good customer service at all. If he had a problem with him painting the model, he shouldn't have brought up what they were "talking about". Instead, he should have (politely, like any good store-owner should) asked him to not paint the model in the store. If the manager had done anything along those lines, he would have been completely in the right. However, he did not, and was flat out rude to a customer.

His "smartass" comment was also derrived from trying to play on the manager's sense of humor, not being malicious. He stated that the previous manager had a good sense of humor, and was simply messing around with the "new guy". It's not his fault the guy's a stick in the mud with the sense of humor of a dead catfish.

I was once in a GW store, and I just happened to have the new Legends of the High Seas book on me. Which, or course, is published by games Workshop's Historical division.

I was casually talking with a friend, who asked to look at it. He was a long time vet player, who had bought tons of stuff, just like me. And the GW store staff knew him, and that he was a whale of a customer. And I had a GW employee give me a hard time, asked me to remove it or hide it, since GW stores didn't sell it. To me, it was dumb on a couple of points:

1. Why even have a historical book line if you refuse to promote it, or sell them in your stores, or even allow them to be ordered direct from your stores?

2. If, for some reason, the other Vet DID decide to buy it, it's not like it was going to stop him from buying GW mainstream products.

3. And, if the Vet did decide to eventually buy one, GW profits anyhow. it's a GW product.

4. They knew me and the other guy well. It's not as if we would go about proselytising to young kids to stop playing Space Marines. Two grizzled vets talking about a GW product privately wasn't going to hurt their bottom line one bit. But it was GW policy to avoid anything related to their historical division, so the manager followed that policy.

The whole thing just struck me as insane. Why have a business, make products, sell them, but never mention them? I liked the GW guy, so I put it away out of courtesy, but the whole thing just struck me as bizarre. Classic GW catch-22 in the the way it deals with its own products and customers.

I always thought, "Why not make a product like that and sell it hard as a splash release?" Instead of keeping LoTR into its death knells, why not have a yearly or semi-yearly "Special Game" that gets a limited fun release? GW could make a single pirate sprue and sell TONS of these to regular customers, who would play it for awhile. Make it clear from the start that this is a limited run. no promises of tons of stuff, just a nice compact game with a few figures. Most regulars will buy it in addition to their other stuff. If they made a single sprue, they would kill in the historical world.

For example, GW makes a GREAT sailing game, which most people don't know. "Trafalgar" is great. They also make a nice pirates game, same engine as LoTR and Legends of the Old West. Find a way to make them compatible. You sell a sailing game, and a pirate game. One more step and they could rock it. People play Mordheim when it makes the rounds, once a year. They buy figs, make a gang, and play it for a month. Then go back to regular stuff. pirates could be like that. Or cowboys. Heck, a TON of people suddenly got interested in WWI when they released their rules, despite all of the other rulesets that have been around.

And if GW did a "Splash" type game, how hard would it be to devote a single sprue, once per year, to the splash game? Even 2 sprues? They say they can do 50 a year. Is anybody really going to feel a loss if that sprue is a splash game, as opposed to one more sprue with f-ing hobbits or ringwraiths on them? Or even a non-core, limited choice in Warhammer Fantasy that can exist in metal? Cowboys will sell far more than Wood Elf rare choices any day of the week. Who doesn't want to play cowboys? Plus it gives an alternative to get the kids involved. Don't like fantasy? Don't like Sci-fi? How about pirates/cowboys, etc.... fill in the blank.

These days I live near an independent store, and frankly, its really refreshing.

BTW- on a related note: I once had a GW guy (upper level) tell me that Warhammer Historical products accounted for 10-15% of the business, worldwide. They appealed to a lot of historical gamers, but flew under the radar because they weren't in the mainstream stores. If that's true, why kick that 10% to the corner, when it clearly does well even when it's treated as the stepchild. Heck, a bit of basic promotion and that could be a bigger revenue generator.

Kanluwen wrote:Do you think before you post or just immediately start in with the insults?

Both. I think about the insults.

Kanluwen wrote:In the US, stores reserve the right to refuse service to you and remove you for pretty much any reason excepting race.

Now who's being a drama queen.

The way I read the Op is that this guy walked into a GW store, sat down and started painting/talking with a friend, was talking about other game systems and got kicked out. That's unreasonable, the same reason a McDonald's manager kicking you for talking about KFC whilst eating McDonald's is unreasonable.

If my interpretation of the event is wrong, and the OP actually walked into the GW and started painting his Warmachine model and/or started telling everyone how much better Warmachine was, then the manager had every right to kick him out, like a person waking into a McDonald's with a 18-piece Bucket'O'Kentucky who starts handing them out to everyone and saying how much McDonald's sucks.

But you, Kan, automatically assumed GW were in the right here without any explanation or thought. That's why I said "thanks for taking the 'reasonable' view" because your dogged defence of GW in everything they do doesn't allow you to ever see that, hey, maybe GW are in the wrong every now and again.

So if the OP did do the latter, then he deserved everything he got. But if he did the former, then you and everyone else criticising him needs to STFU.

D'ya get it now?

Actually HBMC, the Op was asked to take the conversation outside, which doesn't mean kicked out. It was a request, not a demand, and even the KFC/McDonald's analogy fails because in it, the person is a paying customer, while a person painting at a GW is not.

H.B.M.C. wrote:So if the OP did do the latter, then he deserved everything he got. But if he did the former, then you and everyone else criticising him needs to STFU.

Then again, since you know exactly as much about the subject as the rest of us and can't seem to behave civilly, maybe you should follow your own advice.

Clearly there can't be any middle ground here, right? I mean, either the OP attempted arson in the GW store or the employee in question made the poor young lad board a cattle car that was bound for Auschwitz for no good reason at all.

Semantics.

Besides, have you ever seen someone who hasn't bought anything at McDonald's (yet his friends have) been asked to 'take it outside'.

I doubt it.

Unless the OP was activley flaunting (or painting) another company's miniature and/or loudly decrying GW products in favour of other game systems, the manager's request was unreasonable.

Sitting there and painting a model whilst having a private conversation with a friend about anything isn't justification for being told to 'take it out side'. They could have been discussing the whether and it wouldn't have mattered. Unless one or both of those two conditions above occurred, the manager had no resonable course of action to do what he did other than the GW group-think paranoia at the thought of competing game systems.


But, as I said, and I'll say this again so it's nice and clear - if the OP was doing either of those things (or something similar), then the manager was well within his rights.

I guess in my world, providing space and hobby materials gratis grants a proprietor certain latitude in setting behavior.

It's also not semantics. there is a massive difference between actually tossing somebody for a conversation, and asking them to either stop or take it outside. Just ask Patrick Swayze in Roadhouse.

Monster Rain wrote:Then again, since you know exactly as much about the subject as the rest of us and can't seem to behave civilly, maybe you should follow your own advice.

No. I'm not the one jumping on the Op because of something that may or may not have happened.

Monster Rain wrote:Clearly there can't be any middle ground here, right? I mean, either the OP attempted arson in the GW store or the employee in question made the poor young lad board a cattle car that was bound for Auschwitz for no good reason at all.

There really sin't a middle ground here. It's very much a binary choice:

If the Op talked about other war gaming sytems - GW over reacted.
If the Op flaunted another company's model/painted another company's model/attacked GW products in front of everyone - GW 100% justified.

One of these is true, one of them is not. The Fanbois are leaping to GW's defence. I'm giving both the OP and GW the benefit of the doubt - and that's about as close to the 'middle ground' as you'll get in a situation like this.

Polonius wrote:I guess in my world, providing space and hobby materials gratis grants a proprietor certain latitude in setting behavior.

See, that's where you're wrong.

We are all entitled to use their property whenever we want because we bought an army from them. Or more accurately, from a third party website that gives a 20% discount.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Clearly there can't be any middle ground here, right? I mean, either the OP attempted arson in the GW store or the employee in question made the poor young lad board a cattle car that was bound for Auschwitz for no good reason at all.

There really sin't a middle ground here. It's very much a binary choice:

If the Op talked about other war gaming sytems - GW over reacted.
If the Op flaunted another company's model/painted another company's model/attacked GW products in front of everyone - GW 100% justified.

One of these is true, one of them is not. The Fanbois are leaping to GW's defence. I'm giving both the OP and GW the benefit of the doubt - and that's about as close to the 'middle ground' as you'll get in a situation like this.

That is a fair point.

I suppose that having worked retail for a while I tend to side with the employee over what I assume was someone doing something they ought not to have been doing in the store.