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I don't know what the rule is now, but back in the old days of 3rd ed you could have night goblin units with as few as 5 goblins, but still have them hiding three fanatics in there somewhere. This was hilarious but completely stupid, because you could just shoot the five man units, easily force panic tests and watch them all run, spilling their fanatics among the goblin ranks.

But the clever trick was to take five man units but don't put fanatics in them - your opponent didn't know so he had to shoot them all to be sure. I spent a full game shooting dozens of these 12.5 point night goblin units, letting the bulk of his army reach my lines unaffected.

The other trick was to bring out the fanatic units in special missions. A lot of the old scenarios allowed for reserves to come on from the flanks of the board. There was normally a rule to say you couldn't charge straight away, but it didn't say anything about moving close enough to release fanatics. One time a mate packed his full 1,000 point reserve list with five strong night goblin units each with three fanatics, you can fit 29 fanatics into that... After one turn of decent reserve rolling there was about 18 fanatics spinning around my ranks, come the next turn the only thing saving me from further destruction was him having little space to deploy more of his night goblin units - a couple even got destroyed before they could release their fanatics - crushed by other fanatics. It was a dark day for the noble elves of Ulthuan.

Ah, the days of old editions, when all regiments had a minimum size of 5 and could include whatever possible upgrades with barely any restrictions!

10+ Unit size, pft, cheap marketing trick

Herohammernostalgia wrote:...what was the Nastiest Ploy in Fantasy or 40k that an opponent used against you?...

Well this one time, I was playing WHFB and my opponent didn't disclose his army list and this combo he kept secret was really effective it was...

Every single game of WHFB I have ever played.

Which is why I play 40k and not WHFB anymore. The entire point of WHFB army creation can be to use the 'surprise' hidden magic item (or special rule) to essentially reverse the tactical situation and win the game. The more people who think that is' brilliant' or 'good tactics' the worse the game becomes.

At least in 40k you know what your up against. I'd stop short of better, as it's hard to account for what people want ina game, but it's inherently more fair.

That's not something solely for 40K or WHFB, that is something that should be constantly made clear. We always play open lists, and I always ask about things I don't know what they are. With so many items and special rules you can't be expected to know about everything.

Oshova

My hated dirty tricks was from awhile ago, Skaven players would hide their jezzail guns next to a 40 strong clan rat unit. I couldn't target them with my archery until I had wiped out the unit.

For current rules I can't wait to see the Wizards with lore of the beast change into massive creatures of destruction.

Oshova wrote:That's not something solely for 40K or WHFB, that is something that should be constantly made clear. We always play open lists, and I always ask about things I don't know what they are. With so many items and special rules you can't be expected to know about everything.

Oshova

But open lists defy the point of Fantasy. Every combat is a statistical gamble, no matter how much of a 'sure thing' it appears. It takes more skill to allow for random boosts and the unexpected than it does to know exactly what your opponent is capable of.

Mr Mystery wrote:

Oshova wrote:That's not something solely for 40K or WHFB, that is something that should be constantly made clear. We always play open lists, and I always ask about things I don't know what they are. With so many items and special rules you can't be expected to know about everything.

Oshova

But open lists defy the point of Fantasy. Every combat is a statistical gamble, no matter how much of a 'sure thing' it appears. It takes more skill to allow for random boosts and the unexpected than it does to know exactly what your opponent is capable of.

I concur with Mr Mystery, it has always been a staple for fantasy to play "secretly". It adds to the atmosphere of the game and some rules would be exploited if the lists were open. Like the beastmen's magic item destroyer (I can't remember the name at the moment).

The only thing you need to know is what Spells your opponent has, this is part of the rules. Fantasy is game of using your army as more than the sum of it's parts.

Not really, it's a game of pretending like its a sophisticated block movement, set up, order of operations risk gamble game and then winning with a concealed surprise that reverses the expected critical results.

Not a lot of skill there. Just hide your dirty trick(s) and hope its effect is greater than the other guys.

Kind of invalidates the point of a block movement game and all the 'important position and timing' when you can 'hide' a magic banner that makes you win anyway...

Here are some examples brutal reveals:

Dark Elves and Bretonians:

Charged a unit of Dark Elf executioners into a Bretonian Knight unit (last ed), set up after a baited failed charge versus my black riders. Beat them in melee by total of 3. Unit revealed the Magic Banner of Ignore rank bonus and reversed the melee, I fail a morale check and rout. General leaves with unit. Lost game.

Empire Versus Chaos:

Have an engineer with the magic item that switches stats with your opponent (Magic Mirror?) Bloodthirster charges into lines, Engineer charges Bloodthirster, reveals item, kills demon. Cannons do the rest. Demons loose.

Empire Versus Vampires:

(Also did above versus Vampire Counts, got to the point where guy wouldn't play vs. that item anymore.)

Dark Elves Versus Beastmen:

Set up a generic dark elf shooty line army with some units, beastmen ambush. Beastmen reveal Brayhorn, blow it and come on from reverse board edge. Dark elf units get rear charged and destroyed, Dark Elves loose.

None of those are good 'tactics' or 'brilliant' moves. That's all just skull duggery, and shenanigans.

All areas don't play closed lists, even GW runs open lists for their stuff. So really what's your point? Is it that people in your area are little sneaks? Closed lists aren't a rule so really it's up to your opponet to decide how it is. Sorry if you don't see it the same way as them, but that doesn't mean the whole game is crap.

WarWizard91 wrote:All areas don't play closed lists, even GW runs open lists for their stuff. So really what's your point? Is it that people in your area are little sneaks? Closed lists aren't a rule so really it's up to your opponet to decide how it is. Sorry if you don't see it the same way as them, but that doesn't mean the whole game is crap.

Indeed.

I haven't looked at the new version to see if it addresses the closed list issue.

Also I wanted to be explicit about the point, closed list tricks are not good tactics.

Semi-Finals of 'Ard Boyz 2009, making it the Canadian Finals essentially, a trip to the finals on the line...

Game 3 of the day I draw a Chaos opponent with some rhinos of zerkers and some of plague marines. He has the dinky pintle bolters on each one, no havoc launchers, awesome!

Well as his rhinos scream forward over the first few turns and disgorge troops i set to killing the troops, until he tells me that his rhino is shooting my Land Raider crusader.

I laugh and ask what can a bolter do? He says he purchased a 'combi-bolter' and it can have a single shot of melta/plasma AND/or flamer, thus getting one shot of each.

I tell him no. He brings out his rules and in a very annoying manner shows me all the relevant reference pages where it clearly does not say he 'can't' do it that way.

I'm fed up, the day is near over, I'm not in contention to win overall by now, so I tell him to cheat if he must, he does, insisting he's right.

End result he near tables me and gets a massacre for him. That gets him 3rd overall and a nice prize of product.

I go home, annoyed and pissed off and he gets a treat for cheating, love the game...hate the player...ughh

Ignore me. I need to work on my reading comprehension.

But that's compeltely wrong, horrid, and broken!

It's a combi-bolter, that's a bolter with combined bolter . . . would he say a combi-melta could get 2 melta shots for one turn?

You should have called over a referee to get it cleared up.

That's not a dirty trick, it's just plain cheating.

Oshova

Mr Mystery wrote:

Oshova wrote:That's not something solely for 40K or WHFB, that is something that should be constantly made clear. We always play open lists, and I always ask about things I don't know what they are. With so many items and special rules you can't be expected to know about everything.

Oshova

But open lists defy the point of Fantasy. Every combat is a statistical gamble, no matter how much of a 'sure thing' it appears. It takes more skill to allow for random boosts and the unexpected than it does to know exactly what your opponent is capable of.

So you fully advocate hiding items and interactions but are completely against misleading your opponent into thinking you have something when you do not? Seems a little inconsistent... Could I then just sit across from you with the rule book out asking you if you have each item individually and you would be required to correctly answer?

Fearspect wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:

Oshova wrote:That's not something solely for 40K or WHFB, that is something that should be constantly made clear. We always play open lists, and I always ask about things I don't know what they are. With so many items and special rules you can't be expected to know about everything.

Oshova

But open lists defy the point of Fantasy. Every combat is a statistical gamble, no matter how much of a 'sure thing' it appears. It takes more skill to allow for random boosts and the unexpected than it does to know exactly what your opponent is capable of.

So you fully advocate hiding items and interactions but are completely against misleading your opponent into thinking you have something when you do not? Seems a little inconsistent... Could I then just sit across from you with the rule book out asking you if you have each item individually and you would be required to correctly answer?

No you're just being a pedant because you lost, or couldn't be bothered to look for usefull combos. Half the fun of Warhammer is not knowing what items a unit has, and the case remains that open lists aren't a given. The only knowledge of your opponants list should be the number of units (and type if not wysiwyg), characters and spells. If you get turned over by a mirror effect or the like it's up to you to come up with a counter

Captain Jack wrote:Half the fun of Warhammer is not knowing what items a unit has, and the case remains that open lists aren't a given. The only knowledge of your opponants list should be the number of units (and type if not wysiwyg), characters and spells. If you get turned over by a mirror effect or the like it's up to you to come up with a counter

Jack, I can understand this logic. After all if a player had to disclose which unit his dark elf assassin was 'hiding' in, then it wouldn't be any use as the enemy player could avoid it, and that would take the assassin mechanic out of the game! All of which is made possible by hidden lists.

...but...

What about 'hiding' things like flaming swords or magic banners? Isn't the point of those they are famous and obvious and terrible because the enemy sees them?

It's one thing to obfuscate something for a theme as an ability, like the assassin, and quite another to play a shell game with a system that allows for freedom of army design don't you think?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:Semi-Finals of 'Ard Boyz 2009,..., love the game...hate the player...ughh

+1 that's one of the worst I have heard, sorry.

Augustus wrote:
Jack, I can understand this logic. After all if a player had to disclose which unit his dark elf assassin was 'hiding' in, then it wouldn't be any use as the enemy player could avoid it, and that would take the assassin mechanic out of the game! All of which is made possible by hidden lists.

...but...

What about 'hiding' things like flaming swords or magic banners? Isn't the point of those they are famous and obvious and terrible because the enemy sees them?

It's one thing to obfuscate something for a theme as an ability, like the assassin, and quite another to play a shell game with a system that allows for freedom of army design don't you think?

I agree, units with the specific rule "Hidden" then ofcourse you don't declare where they are. But a banner or a flaming sword or whatever, is going to be pretty obvious. How could you not see that Lord running towards you with a flaming sword of doom!?

Oshova

Augustus wrote:
Have an engineer with the magic item that switches stats with your opponent

I hope this was last edition. This edition, Engineers can't take magic items.

Oh yea, that was an old one

I havent played WHFB for years

Captain Jack wrote:No you're just being a pedant because you lost, or couldn't be bothered to look for usefull combos. Half the fun of Warhammer is not knowing what items a unit has, and the case remains that open lists aren't a given. The only knowledge of your opponants list should be the number of units (and type if not wysiwyg), characters and spells. If you get turned over by a mirror effect or the like it's up to you to come up with a counter

Wouldn't a pedant be best exemplified by a person that purposely uses obscure vocabulary?

Anyway, I fully endorse your idea that anyone that disagrees with your personal view on how to play the game is obvious just terrible at it.

In 40k, the Dawn of War mission allows for some seriously fun chicanery. Typically the first player wants to put something at the 24" mark to push you back in your deployment zone. At a 1500pt tournament. I had the pleasure of being forced to go 2nd on a DoW mission against a heavy foot black templar player. His army had 2 x 20 black templar units, with powerfists, an emporers champion/marshall, landraider and some other stuff. Anyhow he lined up both 20 man units on the 24" mark. While it seemed like he had me in a pickle, I was happy to know that on my turn, I had planned to shoot the crud out of the first 20 man unit with most of my army, and the other 20 man unit, after he rushed forward, and then came forward after I shot him. I had just enough distance to walk 10 banshees and yriel into the 20.. err 17 man unit. The banshees got the powerfist in combat on a far end, and yriel went into the center of the unit, and popped his eye patch. It worked out great, none of my banshees was in the area of effect, and 11 templars died. The unit was stubborn, so I killed them all on his turn. Two banshees died.

Another game, at a 1000pt tournament, I was playing a guy who's become a friend. Tau vs my Chaos. I won the roll for turn 1, and made him go first. He put a devilfish on the 24" mark loaded with fire warriors. I deployed a slannesh DP, and 2 x 5 nurgle troops. He reminded me of steal the initiative, so I rolled it.. got a 6. So I walked the rest of my army on the board, one unit was 5 havocs with 4 plasma guns... in a rhino. I drove them up the center of the board, spun that puppy around, dropped off the kids at the pool, and splashed double tapping plasma love on the fish. It blew up gloriously. In the meanwhile, I was fielding two slannesh demon princes, so one was at the 18" mark, the other was at the 12" mark. I lashed the firewarrior unit nice n close, and then lash it again with the other demon prince to get them in position. After my turn 1, I had a 5 man nurgle unit and both demon princes in the middle of the board. (and behind a building).

Gotta love Dawn of War.

Not really sure it was a dirty trick, but in 4th edition with the removing of casualties and preventing certain models from fighting. The first time I encountered it I cried a little. Then I learned quickly and my friend and I were doing it to each other. Made for some fun games.

Oshova wrote:I agree, units with the specific rule "Hidden" then ofcourse you don't declare where they are. But a banner or a flaming sword or whatever, is going to be pretty obvious. How could you not see that Lord running towards you with a flaming sword of doom!?

Oshova

Yeah, my preference has always been for the two players to tell each other about banners but leave magic items hidden until used. I mean - you'd see the banner...

It does open the door for a lot of shenanigans but that's okay, at some point you just have to trust other players won't build their armies around goofy tricks.

40k vs Fantasy, thread jack edition.

I've had HK missiles used on my Boyz Mob with Large Blast Templates.
I have had to take the fearless LD rule to see if I take extra wounds even after I won combat.
I have had people tell me my Lootas on top of a hill don't get BLOS as long as I have troops on the ground in front of them.
Just lot's of stupid things that people abused on me in a tourney ran by locals and they're favoritism tricks.
So me being a noob and learning how to play wrong, back fired horribly until my true local gaming store, showed me otherwise.

The_Savior wrote:I've had HK missiles used on my Boyz Mob with Large Blast Templates.

Ha! Sorry, that's just so flagrant that it's kind of awesome.
"Oh, yeah, they can totally do that, it's on page mrmmmbllerrmmbl."

plastictrees wrote:

The_Savior wrote:I've had HK missiles used on my Boyz Mob with Large Blast Templates.

Ha! Sorry, that's just so flagrant that it's kind of awesome.
"Oh, yeah, they can totally do that, it's on page mrmmmbllerrmmbl."

No I dont have the codex, but i know my own army (in a very offended tone)

I wasn't playing the game, but I was watching it at the local GW.

A Eldar player and a Dark Eldar player begin a game of planetstrike. After a bit of argument, the Eldar player grudgingly agrees that his evil cousins must be the Attacker. The Eldar player then proceeds to not put any terrain on the table and places in entire army in reserve. The DE player's Firestorm has nothing to hit and his force is deployed onto the terrainless table. Eldar player then proceeds to slaughter the coverless DE army.

The Strange Dude wrote:One I have pulled in a doubles tournie our army was IG and Eldar

Round One against BA and SM (Dawn of War) they had 1st turn and a Land Raider and Mephiston set up on the halfway line, we had a seer council hidden away.they move everything up full speed and fail to kill anything (nightfight for the win). Our turn one on comes my vendetta 12" and spotlights mephiston, on an angle comes my Psyker Battle Squad in chimera using 'weaken resolve' check for range oh there 31" away out of range for psychic hood shame. Eldar Farseer uses mindwar on mephiston who is now Ld 2 (weaken resolve reduces Ld by number of psykers in squad in this case 9) mephistons psychic hood can't stop mind war (now he's Ld2) and each player rolls a dice adding thier Ld and the difference is the number of wounds without armour saves the opponent has to take (in this case 8!) Mephiston goes pop (no invul save). Nice guys felt really bad pulling this on them.

That is just mean!










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