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Manchu wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Thirdly, I'd like to point out that Tervigons do play an almost necessary role in the Tyranid army; I'm just not convinced they play that role well by taking up a Troops slot.

Can you talk more in detail about the space covered by "almost"?

If I were to construct a list around "no Tervigons" (and I wanted to paint another hundred little gribblies), I'd start with 4 20-strong units of Hormagaunts, and 2 30-strong units of Termagants, with 2 Primes. The remaining points go into Hive Guard. The Primes attach to the Termagants, to keep them in line and under control, while the Hormagaunts ensure that your opponents have better things to shoot at.

Understand the role of the Tervigon: it is effectively a transport for a random number of Termagants, keeping them safe for use in the later stages of the game, and providing a limited mobility boost (the initial 6" deployment). It also has some (lovely!) secondary functionality as a force multiplier, from Catalyst, and will occasionally have reason to punch something in the face. It's a fairly robust transport (6 T6 wounds w/3+ armor), but can be fairly hard to hide.

If you want to build a list without "transports," you can do it with vast numbers of cheap troops, or fewer more resilient troops. 'Nids don't have an MEQ option in the Troops slot, so you're looking at a "moving carpet" approach.

You could also try 60 gargoyles (3x20), a couple small'ish 'stealer squads for outflanking, the Parasite, a Prime, and 60 or so Termagants as a core. It'd probably work pretty well, but deploying/moving that many gargoyles would be a pain.

Janthkin:

I suppose I didn't make it clear enough. My first point relates to the unit of Termagants one could take instead of a Tergivon in a Troops slot. The second point relates to the survivability of the Tervigon compared to the Termagants, and how well they can hold objectives. The third point, the conclusion, reiterates the thesis statement made in the first paragraph.

Manchu:

The psychic powers Catalyst and Onslaught really stiffen a Tyranid army. Blood Angels may get Feel No Pain from their Sanguinary Priests, but the best weapons for killing them ignore Feel No Pain anyways. Being able to save half the Krak Missiles hitting a unit of Carnifexen is great, and letting them run while they shoot their Heavy Venom Cannons is even better to get them to close with the enemy. Onslaught is really what I'd consider an ideal psychic power: something that affects fundamental rules of the game (run or shoot), acts as a force multiplier (run and shoot), and has a nice varnish of fluff. Frankly I'm annoyed that other psychic Tyranids can't have these powers.

eNvY wrote:If there's one thing that really irks me about this codex, is that the Hormagaunts should've got a Tervigon equivalent. Something less durable, but similar in function and faster.

Flyrant + Old Adversary is about as close as you'll get.

I wish the Prime had a "Wings" option, personally.

@Nurglitch

The advice on Tervigons as HQ's is that anything over 1,500 shouldn't take them as HQ's. Below or at 1,500 as Janth pointed out is the most economical way to take them as the extra investment is minimal.

Could you expand on your third point? I am curious as to why they don't make a solid troop choice and what benefit you see to running them as HQ's instead? Scoring MC's are tough cookies to crack. Much tougher than almost all of the same slot units point for point.

Maybe in a pure genestealer as troops army this would give you some of the depth and enhancers you'd need? Something like:

2xTervigons w/Large Blast, Adrenal, Toxin, FnP

3x2 Hive Guard

3x15 Genestealers
2x5 Genestealers

2xTyranofexes w/Rupture Cannon

??


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And dear god do I wish the Prime had wing options Janth. Would make such an awesome HQ option and open up more possibilities

Hulksmash:

Like I said, it wasn't clear. Instead of a third point I should have simply noted that I was drawing a conclusion. I don't see how a Tervigon is a better scoring unit than its weight in Termagants. All it takes is six wounds, and it can't go to ground. You could have 30 wounds with Cv3+/ Sv6, or 6 wounds with Sv3+/Cv4+. It seems that the Tervigon will be the preferable target thanks to need to cause fewer wounds with anti-tank weapons. Likewise a unit like Assault Terminators would tear it up instead of getting swallowed by the Termgants.

The Tervigon do seem like they would a pretty high priority among targets but I guess you can balance that against Trygons. Also, the Tervigons might bring you more flexibility considering the possibility of rolling a KP game. (It should be obvious but I don't play nids and have never played against them. I have been considering playing them, however, hence my interest.)

Ah, makes more sense then. You'd posted that while I was typing

Well remember that a Tervigon can be, in the situation your describing, 6 T6 wounds and and average of around 12 extra gaunt wounds. He does spawn and can use that spawn to swallow terminators. Even 12 gaunts can lay a hurt on Terminators if they get the bonuses from the Tervie and they'll successfully tarpit them too. As for the Tervigon being the preferred target for anti-tank weapons I've found that if you have enough other T6 stuff that is a direct threat (Trygons, Tyrants, Hive Guard, Carnifexes) then you'll see less weapons aimed at your Tervies.

Devian actually pointed out either on pg1 or 2 that once you take out the "cost" of the average spawnings that a Tervigon fully upgraded is only about 120ish pts. Which equates to less than 20 geared gaunts or 24 naked ones. That should also be a factor in the thinking on the tervigon when you include it in an army.

I've found Tervigons really are a unit that benefits themselves from a lot of synergy in the rest of the list. It also benefits heavily from proper threat saturation. A Tervies place is heavily dependent on the rest of your list but I think it's one of the 2 auto-include units in any list I personally build. The other being Hive Guard.

The problem I see with Nurglitch's argument is unless you are filling the troop slots there's not much reason not to run your tervigons as troops -- especially if you already plan to take 30+ termagants. There's basically little incentive to fill a tyranid troop FOC with non-tervigon choices. Only exception is illustrated by Hulk above (and something I posted a long time ago). Basically running tervigons as HQs frees up 100 points and slots for a gackload of stealers. That type of list is the new stealer shock in my mind. Variant would be replacing one terv with the swarmlord.

To be honest, i rarely use tervigons for thier spawning.
Its the powers that really do make them shine.

Throw onslaught on ravs to get them thinning out a unit ready for assault 1st. (deathspiters are allways nice when on the move) while losing no real movement.

If you plan on using stealers then throwing catalyst on them while im combat pushes them to an insane level of killing.
This would apply more so to ymgarls (T5, 4+, FNP)
To be honest, i find alot of the basic units really do get a huge benefit from it.
30 horms are nice, 30 horms with catalyst survive alot longer, allowing them more attacks in combat.

Dominion is a nice backup plan if everything goes tits up really.
If im going to assault 2 units with 2 horm units, then i can use this to make sure they stay in range, then move up the next turn to throw catalyst on one of them.



So the powers on thier own make them quality and well worth using.
Granted, in KP missions they tend to hang you, but thats why you dont spam them.
Ill take 2 at the very most in 2,500 games, anything more is giving points away.

If you want to rely on the roll of a dice, you can also use a cheap trick in objective missions.
Generally there will be an objective miles away from you that the other player will try to hold.
DS a trygon next to it (doesent matter if you hit anything, he is safe no matter what) to clear the way (or remove anyone holding it)
After that bring the tervy in from reserve through the tunnel, right onto the objective.

Once out the main plan is to spawn little meatshields and throw catalyst onto the trygon to keep him going.
If you have any other reserves you can then drag them in through the same tunnel, right into the other players lines.


however, this does rely on luck with dice, so it wont allways work that well.

@Jack

The tervy cannot use a trygon tunnel. Only infantry can use it, no monstrous creatures, nothing winged, and no beasts. Would be nice though.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:DS a trygon next to it (doesent matter if you hit anything, he is safe no matter what) to clear the way (or remove anyone holding it)
After that bring the tervy in from reserve through the tunnel, right onto the objective.

Err. . .tervigons are not infantry units?

Also, onslaught on raveners with spinefists is pretty good, actually.

Kirsanth:

I'd be interested to hear about your experiences with ravener biomorphs. I've only run them with rending claws, which seemed to work well enough, before I swapped them out due to their poor survival.

I have some raveners with rending claws as well, so I always field them that way.

I tend to use either raveners or gargoyles to catch and hold things for about a round until slow creatures can join in.

The problem with guns on an assault beast like them is generally apparent--being denied the assault. With a potential 36 twin-linked shots it is definitely possible.

However, even when this occurs it is rarely too bad when used deliberately. I move a brood of them behind the Swarmlord(or whatnot) up the table in cover. Rarely do they get shot, and even so the 3wounds goes a long way--anything that can cause ID to them is being shot at the MCs in almost every game I have played.

When I want to use them, I move them around the Swarmlord, run them to screen the Swarmlord + Tyrant Guard then shoot, then assualt.

Even if I manage to kill enough models that the assault is out of (the 12 inch) range, that means that many (most?) models cannot assault them either. Even if they CAN assault, they can (usually) assault the raveners--which is what I was aiming at anyway.

I have had good results when I run them like that, but I do not have enough completed models for the upcoming tourney so I have not been practicing/refining the details as much as I would normally. I will start next week and try to respond with more info--so far this is from about 6 games worth of trial and they paid off in 5 of them.

I'd like to add some ideas on the units not covered in the original book review. This is some of my first stuff, so please feel free to let me know if it awful gak and I'll delete it. I don't want to give bad advise, that's the opposite of what we're trying to do here.

Tyrant Guard: These guys are a necessary evil. If at any point you are thinking about running a tyrant without wings or a swarmlord, go ahead and alocate another 60 points for one of these. Just one will unlock a cover save for you tyrant against all those ap 1, 2, and 3 weapons. Whether you use more than one or not, it's up to you.

Swarmlord: I wanted to put this guy in his own catagory. Alot of people see a hefty price tag of 280 and go "No way!" At lower point levels he starts to chew up a large part of your army.

The swarmlord is primarily a force multiplier. He can do so many things such as give any one unit within 18" acute sense, (great for hive guard), perfered enemy (great for anybody), or furiour charge. This is not a psychic power, he can then use two more powers each turn and has all four that the tyrant has. He also bolsters any reserve army and outflanking army.

His increased close combat abilities can make even TH/SS termies cry. Unlike them however, he can't get a super tough metal box to drive him places. His primary weakness is his speed, but he has to have some drawback. I really suggest using him in a reserve heavy/outflank heavy list, even though he is one that would walk on.

Doom of Malan'Tai: Pre FAQ, he was as broken as you could possibly be. Post FAQ, he is more of a pychological weapon. It is almost a must to give him a spod to have any hope of being effective. He still has tremendous potential, but it is entirely based on your local Meta-game. If you face any type of hoard army, he could be devastating. One thing to help him out is to put him in assault ASAP. Once he gets wounds to spare, most players will simply try to Instant Death him on a failed invul save. It's a lot harder to do that when they can't shoot him. A strength 10, 10 wound model that constently replinishes lost wounds is a nightmare, even for orks, just watch out for that stray power claw or fist.

Those are just some of my experiences and observations.

Excellent advice on the Tyrant Guard. I added that to the primary post. The other two I'd like to get more conversation from others with some experience before adding them in. Good first run Omega_Warlord!

I agree with Omega Warlord that the swarmlord requires some special attention. Another nod to the SL is the WS9. Since most pesky assault troops nowadays tend to be ass. terms and thunderwolves with storm shields, the swarmlord is almost perfectly equipped to deal with them. Being hit on 5's is great, the 4++ invuln in CC is unique among nids, and ID attacks that force an invuln reroll is simply amazing. His init 6 also lets him kill many a pesky character before they swing.

Also, a note on majority characteristics should be mentioned. The SL + 1 guard means that you use the majority WS of 9... which is awesome! If you are using my recommended stealer config with a BL, when you are down to just the BL and a stealer, you get to use t5! Very helpful.

As for Nurglitch's idea to run a tervigon as HQ, I think the idea has a lot more merit than people give credit for. In many builds, if you are not basing your strat on a hive tyrant + SL, and you are not using primes to give 'fexes cover saves, the requirement to run an HQ is really a penality for nids.

Also, many lists may not want to run termagants in huge numbers. For example, anyone with 100 hormagants and 0 termagants, because all gants got converted to scythgants in 3rd ed, will probably only be able to scrounge just enough termagants to power 1 tervigon's spawning.

For these times, a plain jane tervigon with 1 power is almost an ideal HQ... fairly cheap, and catalyst or onslaught is still a useful addition to any nid army. The few extra gants they make are bonus objective grabbers really, and simply let you play aggro with your horms or stealers or warriors.

1850 sample list
9 hive guard
3 tfex
tervigon HQ onslaught, scytal with extra points
2x 7 stealers+BL
3 warriors with spitters

In this list, the idea is as much fast agro as possible. The stealers infiltrate, warriors hide behind tfexes, and by turn 2 if you dont have a shooting dominance you were never going to. The tervigon can push any shooters that are lagging behind forward, and spit out gants to hold a midfield objective or 2. With the 18 inch synapse power as a backup to the warriors, you have a compact little region of pain.

Hulksmash wrote:Excellent advice on the Tyrant Guard. I added that to the primary post. The other two I'd like to get more conversation from others with some experience before adding them in. Good first run Omega_Warlord!

I commented on the Swarmlord, too - he really is pretty awesome.

I prefer my single TG w/a lashwhip, specifically for Mephiston vs. Swarmlord scenarios.

Doom tatics.

Spod is almost a must, I tried him without and won me the game, due to his kicking orks off a back objective, but that was pretty good luck. Against hordes he does very very well. You need to be super agreessive with him. Drop towards back line heavy shooters like Long Fangs and Lootas, units that usually don't have PF.

If scatter is pretty fail, hide behind the pod for a turn, or with a big horde use the blast and next turn, try to get in assult like Omega said. These back line units rarely have a fist. Ork MEks with SAG in a squad of lootas, may, so try to ID the Mek on assult.

So as another contribution to the thread (thought about starting a seperate thread but figured may as well post this here).

Been theoryhammering a heavy carnifex list built around a wall concept (would need more carni's to even playtest it). Started trying to make something akin to the ork kan wall concept but its kinda evolved into something different. The latest iteration is below with a few thoughts and reasonings.

Tyranid Prime: Sword/Lash, Devourers -- 95
Tyranid Prime: Dual Sword, Devourers -- 90

2x Hive guard -- 100
2x Hive guard -- 100
2x Hive guard -- 100

Tervigon: Catalyst -- 175
10x Termagants -- 50
3x Warriors: Rending + ??? -- 90-105
3x Warriors: Rending + ??? -- 90-105

2x Carnifexes: 2x scytals -- 320
2x Carnifexes: 2x brainleech -- 380
2x Carnifexes: 2x brainleech -- 380
1970-2000 points

1) HQs go with the scytal carni brood. These guys run up the board screening a good chunk of the force behind (including potentially the other two carnifex broods).

2) Had a hard time getting 2 tervigons in the list and still have the shooting umph. So considered a few things and thought why not warriors?
--They'll have an easy time getting a 4+ cover save and with so much T6 3+ save they won't be as susceptible to S8
--While often times stealers are better at what these guys would provide, they have a smaller footprint, synapse/sitw (which is nice incase force weapons become more popular come 2011...), more wounds for the points and a not trivial 4+ armor save.
--They have some synergy with the primes -- won't often be leveraged but its there.
--Considered shooty warriors and that might in the end be better, but the thought was to make a somewhat cc oriented warrior that had a higher chance of getting the carnifexes out of a tight spot.
--In a pinch can provide a cover save to the MCs.

3) Not a bunch of upgrades on the tervigon. Doesn't seem worth it with just 1 tervigon and 10 termagants. In early iterations of the idea I had onslaught instead of catalyst (on 2 tervigons) that way the dakkafexes could run and shoot. Again, would have to give up something significant to make it worthwhile with 2 tervigons.

4) Dawn of War take and hold is pretty damn tough to get a win with this list. No easy fix for that without going in a completely different direction (eg pretty much turning this into Hulks hammer list). Anything else seems doable.

5) This list gets really brutal at the ard boyz levels but doesn't scale down to well without major changes

CnC welcome!

EDIT looks like I flubbed the points on the warriors. So I guess they could be shooty and still have rending. Something to ponder. Updated the list to reflect.

Wow, some great info in here. Sorry I have not put in my two cents, I am still unpacking from my move.

I really want to hear about success with Ravenors and Pyrovores. I had not even considered them.

Dave_Fey has been talking about his 100 stealer list and 90 Gargoyle list. He was also experimenting with a theoretical list that had 3 Harpies and a number of barbed strangler equipped units to throw out a massive amount of blast templates.

I'll try and get him to come over and share some of his knowledge.

Just marking this thread...will have some content to add very soon about my experiences.


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Ok, so my experiences may differ slightly to a lot of other posters. When the nid codex came out I didn't jump onto the hive guard, tervigon and gaunt bandwagon. Instead I saw real potential with a drop podding list. It was something that really intrigued me since that's how I have always wanted to play nid lists. Even now that my tactics have evolved to build more balanced lists I still advocate the use of some "surprise" in almost every list.

I will talk about the units I have used the most and got the most return for.

1. Ymgarl genestealers

Vehicle Hunting
Lets face it, the biggest problem all nid players have is mech IG. Av 12 on the front, and it feels like for every 1 you destroy there are another 2 to replace it. Ymgarls can come out and engage multiple vehicles (a great bonus that's often overlooked...hive guard and zoanthropes can only eliminate 1 vehicle a turn at best) without taking a casualty. Sure they take an elite slot, but I personally think that it's a spot well used. If combined with the Swarmlord give them furious charge. Throw in their unstable mutation +1 S and you are hitting on S6. Even if they don't wreck the vehicle chances are you can at least stun it and force that small unit full of plasma guns to disembark if they want to shoot.

Infantry Hunting
These guys are great for pulling small units off objectives too and scouring it clean, thus leaving your opponent to think about sending some units back from his primary wave. Another great thing about them is the fact that they *should* take no casualties on the way in. If you take the Swarmlord preferred enemy is a must. From a full unit with +1A you are looking at 40 attacks (should be hitting on 3's) with re-rolls. Not even storm shield bearing termies can stand up to that kind of assault. Another benefit that can often be overlooked is that you can choose where to engage the enemy. Avoid charging into cover, and usually there is a model or 2 out of area terrain where you can draw the rest of the enemy to you so you still strike at I6. Great for pulling large IG blobs sitting on an objective right out of position. Use their unit size to your advantage. I usually use them for what I call disruption. On the battlefield there are usually a few key units you wish to stop firing or manoeuvring. These guys can usually hold their own against the toughest of enemies and lock them down.

Ok that's this mornings installment. Will add some more when I have time.


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2. Genestealers

I have used these less than some other members on dakka and with a slightly less common build (naked but with a broodlord). Just seeing a unit of these in your army list makes your opponent cautious to deploy or move near table edges. In lower points games this can cause some real clumping issues that you can use to your advantage for objective missions. The Broodlord is there for survivability of the brood which helps in all missions. Your opponent will be hard put to throw/waste an S10 weapon at a small unit of genestealers camping an objective in cover and they would have to send in some heavy cc specialists to kill them in their preferred environment. A lot of effort for very few points.

Tank Hunting
Not so good as their Ymgarl cousins due to no S buff but in a pinch they can handle a transport. The Swarmlord can help a bit with +1S, but I rarely use them in this manner unless it's to get a mech unit off an objective, or for the KP.

Infantry Hunting
This is where these guys excel. Against mediocre to medium close combat troops they usually pull through. They have a large threat radius too due to fleet meaning (with good deployment) within 2 turns of being on the board (infiltrate or outflanking) they will be in combat with something. You can also use them in a more sneaky fashion to hit small units of devastators/scouts/lootas in the backfield. Again, your opponent won't want to fire heavy weapons at these guys when there are MC's advancing. I regularly run 2 units of 6 with the broodlord in lower points games and move up to 8 or 10 in medium large games.



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3. Zoanthropes

Not need to separate tank and infantry hunting since it's pretty obvious what their role is. Spore pods are essential and they can provide a fast and devastating response to a heavy mechanized force. Hive Commander on your tyrant or the Swarmlord is essential though in anything but the smallest of games for reliability. There are many glaring weaknesses to the unit however, most of which have been pointed out many times by various posters.

Psychic defense.
A psychic hood or eldar runes can really ruin a zoanthropes day. The only way to get around it is to take more zoanthropes, which I really wouldn't advocate unless you are running a heavy spod based list. People often say that you then rely on rolling to hit and to pen, but tbh this is less of a concern. They hit on 3's and pen almost anything on 3's. That's reliability in my book.

Now onto some of the finer points of zoanthropes. Some of these may be obvious but they are missed by quite a few players.

1. The spod
The spod itself while immobile is also a weapon. It has 6 S6 attacks. While not great it can knock out a pesky transport or hit nearby infantry. It provides cover, and can also force people to move around it. That's a lot of things for it's price tag. Also remember that in any objective game it can contest and opponents are less willing to fire MLs at it while other MC's are still running around.

2. Alternative targets
Something that has caught my eye is that hive guard are useless if your opponent takes no vehicles, or if you eliminate them early on or if they stay out of range. Sure you can ID T4, but so can Zoanthropes. Zoanthropes can still put down damage quite successfully on large units of infantry once their primary target is out of range or eliminated.

The lower S small blast of the zoanthrope is great for targetting MEQ's. It's AP3 which gets rid of their armour and has a longer range which means you can stay out of enemy reprisal range a bit better. Though designed as a suicidal unit, they can serve more than one purpose if used properly. Long fangs (as an example) are a great target.

Awesome addition Lukus83. It made me want to try out some Ygmarl's in two weeks at my next tourney

In fact some of the above posts have made me wanna try something. What do you guys think? It's a variation on one of the sample lists:

2xPrime w/LS+BS, Deathspitter, Poison
2x2 Hive Guard
6 Ygmarls
2x10 Spinegaunts
2xTervigon w/Catalyst, Large Blast, Adrenal, Toxin
6 Raveners w/Rending Claws
2 Carnifexes
2xTrygons

??

I'm interested in the Devourer Gants. 15 of them are 150pts and they throw 45 shots at 18". That's some serious Dakka. I figure they can command a stand of trees or some other cover to mitigate the return fire, but how have they worked so far?

This would have been such an awesome codex if some of the Elite choices were moved into other slots.

Well, mathhammer says 45 shots 1/2 hit:

On meqs 22.5 hit, 1/2 wound for 11 and 2/3 save for about 4 dead marines
On geq 22.5 hit, 2/3 wound for 14.8 and 1/3 save for about 10 dead guard

I say mathhammer because I can count the times I've started doing this on one hand. But anecdotal wise I did dislodge a squad of guard in cover who failed leadership and counter-charged a marine unit that assaulted my zoans saving one of them. Granted, I've been told that for 200 plus (the pod too) is a large number of points for a distraction but I'm still feeling out the nids.

*bad math edit

I like your list Hulksmash. Since you have some Hive Guard and Carnifexes on the table your tervigons won't be singled out quite so easily and the trygons really add some fast hitting power. How are you running your carnifexes? And how many points is the list? I'm personally not a fan of raveners but I think they suit the list...some real fast in your face nastiness. Just be sure to avoid S8 powerfists, lol.

Not so good as their Ymgarl cousins due to no S buff but in a pinch they can handle a transport.

Something I feel should be made clear (not saying you don't know this Lukas, just wasn't obvious in your post) -- Ymgarls are better at anti-transport due to the +1A, not the +1S. This is because a S5 rending attack is not gaining a signifcant chance to destroy AR10 over a S4 rending attack, as both pen on a 6. So when using ymgarls against transports, I much prefer the +1A when attacking a vehicle (assuming no swarmlord in area).

However there are exceptions and the added flexibility is pretty cool as far as attacking vehicles in general. Reasons to use the +1S against a tank:
--When auto-hitting an AR10 vehicle with limited numbers of weapons (or is already immobilized) -- you get a reallly good chance of destroying via escalated damage results.
--If simply shaking is prefered over the chance of not doing anything, then the +1S is also a better selection (giving a .33 increase in probability of at least shaking). Sometimes worthwhile if faced with a tank that could tear up your stealers, etc.
--Swarmlord can give them furious charge.
--And obviously if facing anything that is not rear armor 10.

It's a 2k list. Basically the two Carnies are naked but joined by the 2 primes so that they get cover saves and wound allocation shennanigans. This also allows me to get cover for my Tervigons behind them since that's 4 decent sized models blocking LOS to the tervies. Originally the list had 6 Hive Guard and almost 30 suped up gargoyles but I think the raveners work better in this list too. Almost as many wounds, better able to take advantage of FnP, faster, and about the same number of attacks but with rending

If you made one of your primes just slightly different, devourer instead of deathspitter, or something similar you could really abuse wound allocation.

I'm thinking of compiling all the different list archetypes and what they're strengths and weaknesses are. But that will have to wait for the weekend.

I can abuse wound allocation anyway because it's an indepent character. I don't need to make him different from the other IC to do wound allocation

That's what I get for posting while eating Zaxby's (so distracted, sooooo... distracted.)