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kastellan wrote:Haha that's awesome. He has no protection whatsoever though..

Stick him in a unit of something like PG to keep him alive

Eagles, reavers and/or dragon princes.

Empire war machines are pathetic in hand to hand so even eagles have a very good chance of killing or routing the crew on the charge (and on the 2nd turn). You should try using 1 unit of special elite infantry and 2 blocks of spears. Bring some magic and maybe the seerstaff to get some initiative-based killers (pit of shades works wonders on the automatically failing war machines). If your going to bring a mage then you should bring the banner of sorcery (above posts are right about that one).

Personally i believe that the high elves work very well with a little unit of 5 dragon princes without upgrades and a pile of eagles. i want to start testing reavers again though. they're dirt cheap for HE's and getting their free vanguard move back they may actually be worth it again. If nothing else they'll use their 85 points or so absorbing warmachine fire giving your elite infantry closer to their targets.

The trick with any of them is that they need to be cheap. don't go crazy upgrading stuff you expect to die going after the backfield of your enemy. your infantry will win you the game, but the light stuff will allow them to do it. If the light stuff stops working.... well.... its hard to win if you can't use your light stuff. I think this is what your seeing in your games.

If you are close to giving up on the army as your first post indicated, do not take one of the worst choices in 8th (Prince on a Dragon) and then hope to win.

If you are playing for fun, then yes, use the models you like and enjoy the game, but if you are playing to win then do not take the Prince, ESPECIALLY against Empire. Your Dragon will last all of 2 seconds, and you will once again be looking at losing.

High Elves NEED to dominate the magic phase to win most games. There are those matchups where certain lists will beat others, but for a general rule, your strongest phase should be your magic phase. If you take Teclis, you will dominate that phase. He adds D3 dice to the pool, the Banner of Sorcery adds D3. The banner does not appear in your updated list, and this still confuses me. This is a MUST HAVE for a list with Teclis or any mage. Stick it on your Phoenix Guard. It is well worth the 50 points.

Teclis - 475

Noble BSB - 168 - Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, Great Weapon

Spearmen 30 Musc/SB - 285

Seaguard 20 Musc/SB Shields - 275

Swordmasters *15* Musc/SB - 243

Phoenix Guard *18* FC Banner of Sorcery - 350

2 Great Eagles - 100

Bolt Thrower - 100

Total 1996

By no means is this the best possible list, but it would certainly be more competitive than the list with the Dragon Mage. I dropped the Phoenix Guard to 18 because both Teclis and the BSB go here, although you give away that by putting them at only 18. I don't tend to do this, but based on your list, I figured you would do so. Also, run Swordmasters either 5x3, or 6x3. 15, or 18, no more no less. Any bigger and they become target priority 1, and wiped out. Any smaller, and limited shooting can really hamper there ability to do damage.

Other changes:

- Musicians are a must for the cheap points they cost.
- Bigger block of Spearmen so they stick around to hold, and so you meet minimum core
- One Spearmen unit is now Seaguard. Gives you some shooting, really helps against low T, low AS armies

Why not put the Banner of the world dragon on your unit of pheonix guard, and then launch purple sun after purple sun out of the unit? If it ever lands on you, you don't lose a model anyway... You can wreak serious havoc with 4 or 5 purple suns zooming around the board in your opponents territory.

Umm you can't cast a RiP spell with that character if another instance of it is still active.
And all vortexes are RiP spells.

It also means your BSB has at most, a 4+ armour save, and nothing else.

Teclis is already weak enough, adding in another easy kill on the BSB is just a bad idea.

** Edit ** At 60 points the banner of the world dragon has to go on the BSB... max points for the PG banner is 50 (banner of sorcery fits perfectly)

You could have 3 purple suns going at one time with the high elves. Teclis, Seer-Staff mage and 1 normal mage.

I shudder to think of the points thos three will cost...
Makes my slann and his engine lackey look cheap (well not really )

It would actually cost pretty close to what a Slann + EotG would cost.

475 For Teclis, 130 for the Seerstaff mage if he is level 1, and then the other Mage has to get lucky to get the spell. 270 for a level 4 with the Silver Wand would do it.
875 for the HE compared to 815 for a 4 Disc Slann, and an EotG with level 2 Skink using no gear.

The difference between the 2 is that the EotG + Slann is useful, while the HE Purple Sun spam is rather pointless, and a giant waste of points.

As an Empire player I have to say I love seeing one expensive, fragile unit on the other side. I know I can hit that with all my ranged stuff and knock out a lot of the other guy's killing power right there. What I don't like seeing is lots of units of basic troops, because whatever elf units get to my ranks in decent numbers will beat my troops.

That’s kind of how the game works, and probably how it’s always worked. Gunline armies do well against elite melee armies, elite melee armies do well against horde armies, and horde armies do well against elite melee.

Not that High Elves can ever really build a horde army, but they can take re-focus towards to greater numbers over individual quality troops.

So I’d think you might have a bit of luck dropping the Swordsmen, taking another unit of spearmen and then bulking out each spearmen unit with greater numbers.

war wrote:You could have 3 purple suns going at one time with the high elves. Teclis, Seer-Staff mage and 1 normal mage.

I think this is wrong.

I'm pretty sure that aside from the lvl 1 spell, you can't duplicate spells in a list.

But I also thought that RIP's were fire and forget and you could have as many as you wanted on the table. I'll have to re-read that when I get the chance.

Even if you can only have one.. constantly re-launching the purple sun from the front of that unit pretty much protects it all game.

Ragnar4 wrote:I'm pretty sure that aside from the lvl 1 spell, you can't duplicate spells in a list.

Models who have no choice in the spells they know don't block a spell from being rolled.
So by having Teclis the loremaster (has no choice know all spells), a wizzard with the item that lets him pick his spells (specifically exempt in the BRB), and a regular mage who rolled the spell, that all ends with three wizzards with the same spell.

Ragnar4 wrote:But I also thought that RIP's were fire and forget and you could have as many as you wanted on the table. I'll have to re-read that when I get the chance.

Do that. Altho i think ogres can do it. But then again they can dublicate spells all they want everyone of their casters being a loremaster and all.

HoverBoy wrote:

Ragnar4 wrote:I'm pretty sure that aside from the lvl 1 spell, you can't duplicate spells in a list.

Models who have no choice in the spells they know don't block a spell from being rolled.
So by having Teclis the loremaster (has no choice know all spells), a wizzard with the item that lets him pick his spells (specifically exempt in the BRB), and a regular mage who rolled the spell, that all ends with three wizzards with the same spell.

Where is that rule/iterpretation in the BRB or erratta?

Ow well lets see here... how about page 490 under spell generation.
BTW you sir are charged with wasting my time
I actually had to look that up

Lol this is alot of posts to wake up to on your birthday haha. I actually like the sample list Lehnsherr posted, except I would probably change out the Lothern Sea Guard for normal spearmen as I don't think Sea Guard are worth it. That will give me some more point to either make the spearmen bigger or the Swordmasters bigger. Sound ok?

its not a bad list, I personally like more fast stuff (especially against gunline type armies). I don't like to use Teclis outside of tourney's, but if your getting rocked every game then go for it for the ego boost.

kastellan wrote:Archmage
Lore of Life
Level 4
Folariath’s Robe
Silver Wand
315pts

Noble
Heavy Armour
Great Weapon
Temakador’s Gauntlets
127pts

Give the Archmage Staff of Solidity, the first irresistable force you get is painless. This will serve you better than the extra spell, you cannot afford to miscast and this will allow you , once, to dump lots of dice into a crucial spell and get away with it.

The hero above was mentioned as a beter example of the Prince you first had.
Temakadors is the best optimal protection, its cheap and does a lot. Armour of Caledor and Guardian Phoenix is 'better' but eats all your magic item allowance. To have value your hero still needs an item to define a role for him. I would consider Amulet of Light, it it makes all his and his units attacks magical, giving you the edge you need against some hard to kill opponents.
Also never take heavy armour, take dragon armour. The benefits are well worth the 2pts extra you pay.

I'd just give the amulet of light to your Phoenix Guard Champion.

The noble is the BSB, that IS his role. You want maximum protection at all times for him. Termaks gives him a 4+ armour save, and a 5+ ward save, but to activate the ward your armour save will be at best a 5+. He is still too easily killed.

I'd much prefer a BSB with a 2+, 5+ at all times.

Isn't the only thing Dragon Armour protects you against breath attacks?
And I ran a list with Teclis yesterday and completely decimated my mates Empire gunline, so today against the owner of my FLGS and his Vampire Counts I opted for an Archmage with the Book of Hoeth. Again, completely decimated, he didn't even get into combat and his army was cut to about half its original size.
From these two battles I'm under the impression that magic is far too OP in this edition and quite frankly, even though I won by heaps which helped my ego a substantial amount, I'm going to start finding it hard to find willing opponents as my magic phase is ridiculously OP. I used Lore of Life and wiped out half of a unit of 30 strong Greatswords in one turn with The Dwellers Below and three quarters of a unit of 50 Zombies.

So after these battles I think instead of the Archmage I'll be taking a Prince on Dragon I think.

Dragon armor protects from flamig attacks, breath or otherwise.

You now understand one of the difficulties of playing High Elves in 8th.

Many players get frustrating playing against an army they consider to be OP (this is untrue), because your magic phase is OP (this is true).

Without a strong magic phase, High Elf players in this edition will find it difficult to win games. Step Up / Steadfast hurt the High Elf army FAR WORSE than any other army. There is not a single infantry choice the HE have with an armour save better than 5+. On top of that, every special choice is 15 pts/model and you never get higher than T 3 army wide. The high elf army is extremely fragile, and will lose extended combats to steadfast units without the support of magic. On top of the problems with infantry, you have the relative ineffectiveness of the cavalry in this game, as Dragon Princes have lost alot of their luster.

Swordsmasters 5+, White Lions 5+, Spearmen 5+, Phoenix Guard 5+ (4+ ward thank god)

ASF in 7th gave the High Elf player more choices for fielding a competitive list, but now the High Elf armies truly competitive lists revolve around stacking your magic phase. What has really happened is that instead of players complaining about ASF so much (a huge problem in 7th) you now have complaints about magic. Without magic I just don't see how you are going to win most games (provided you aren't playing against an inept general).

Your empire player will find that a gunline will have difficulties dealing with your list at times, but by no means is it OP or unbeatable. If your mage with the book of hoeth miscasts once, you will likely lose the game. If Teclis and his unit end up in combat, Teclis will likely die, and you will once again lose the game. If your opponent has a mage with the lore of death, and chooses to toss maximum dice at spells that target Teclis hoping for IF, Teclis will once again die, and you will lose the game.

Its frustrating as a High Elf player not because of Teclis (he is great to use, very powerful, but has his weaknesses) but moreso because from 7th to 8th our ability to put together competitive lists with some semblance of variety has all but disapeared.

In terms of the Prince/Dragon combo, you will find it useful against lists that are also built for balance/fun. If you come up against a competitive list you will fold quickly. The gunline your opponent runs would LOVE to see you field the dragon. At most, you could give it a 6+ ward save with the Ironcurse icon. You can support it with other spells you have, but having a buffed up mage is unlikely with the points you are spending on the Prince / Dragon. The cannons, mortars, and stone throwers you come up against will love to get the chance to pick off your Dragon, effectively crushing your Lord. Not to mention with the changes in the way wounds now work, even lowly archers can kill your Dragon with enough shots.

**Edit**
One last thing Kastellan... I know you probably didn't make this mistake, but I did once, so I tend to bring it up often. Even though Teclis gets IF with any doubles, he still must meet the casting value of the spell. So you cant just roll 2 dice, get double 2's and your Dwellers goes off with IF. You have to meet the casting value, and roll doubles.

I tend to agree with all of Lenscherr's points, both of my two games in 8th have been with Teclis. He also rolls with Korhil in his unit as well for some defense. I've kept him in a 6 Wide 5 Deep block of lsg.

Swordmasters hit hard as do White lions but both die easily. I can't justify any cav, or chariots in this edition yet, as much as I love the looks of the chariots. I think I run with 3-4 blocks of infantry with a few RBT and a GE.

However for my level 2, what lore should I take?

I tried death and High Magic for each of my last two games.

High did well, got Shield and Courage.

Death seemed pretty meh. Got the spell with -3 ld, and the neg 1 to S and T. Which was nice to get a shooting phase at T3 black orcs.

Lehnsherr wrote:One last thing Kastellan... I know you probably didn't make this mistake, but I did once, so I tend to bring it up often. Even though Teclis gets IF with any doubles, he still must meet the casting value of the spell. So you cant just roll 2 dice, get double 2's and your Dwellers goes off with IF. You have to meet the casting value, and roll doubles.

I'm the 'gunline' army (4 War machines at 2000pts, hardly what you call shooting heavy) and was watching the VC game. Made sure that this little rule check was followed haha Did actually end up saving what was left of a ghoul unit and Konrad, not that in mattered much.

I have read somewhere about a good way to protect Teclis is to get him into the second row of the PG. To be honest I have no idea how this is done though since I though all characters had to go in the front row if they can fit.

syanticraven wrote:I have read somewhere about a good way to protect Teclis is to get him into the second row of the PG. To be honest I have no idea how this is done though since I though all characters had to go in the front row if they can fit.

It's achieved by making him not fit with two other characters.

HoverBoy wrote:

syanticraven wrote:I have read somewhere about a good way to protect Teclis is to get him into the second row of the PG. To be honest I have no idea how this is done though since I though all characters had to go in the front row if they can fit.

It's achieved by making him not fit with two other characters.

Yeah but it would be 5 in a row. Full command, BSB and then who? Sticking a hero in there or another mage would be a bit overkill would it not.
I would certainly throw everything I had at that unit.

I've seen it done with Tyrion or whatever his name is, look around dakka i'm certain i saw it here.

BSB + Caradryan/Korhil + Teclis w/ a 5 front-age of PG with full command usually does it.

On Topic - overall, I agree with Lehnsherr's points.

Well, you would Jin. I've taken alot of advice from your posts on my time here as a lurker, as well as a poster. So you are really just agreeing with yourself

But ya, you could get Teclis into the second row of your PG unit. By doing so though, you are putting well over 1k points into 1 unit. As Syanticraven has pointed out, it is overkill and your opponent will be sending everything at it. They already will anyway to deal with Teclis, but by stacking the PG unit so much you are weakning the rest of your army, and a smart opponent will realize that he only has to send minimal units to deal with the minor threats, while hammering the PG unit with everything he has.

It has its benefits, but there are so many potential calamities. Especially if you roll doulbe 6's twice with Teclis in the same turn.

Acardia, the lore for your level 2 mage should be supportive of the lore you take with Teclis.

For example, I had Teclis with Shadow, I took Death with the level 2 (I also tend to use the Seerstaff so I choose my level 2 spells). There are some nasty combos between those two. If you take Life, you can support it with High Magic (the 5+ ward save spell is actually quite nice) or with Light (another great lore). Try to look at the 2 lores you are choosing as pieces of a puzzle that must fit together.

Haha. I take that as a dare to try to disagree with my own opinions .