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chaos0xomega wrote:

Spoiler:

A lot of people focus on the canis helix connection to explain the "No wolves on fenris" bit, but I think thats just a smokescreen to cover for something else. The implication throughout the book is that they are warp entities. There is a point in the story where the tutelaries are "frightened" and disappear as the fenrisian wolves pass by the thousand sons. That seems to suggest something much more than humans-made-wolves to me.

I considered that.
I discarded it because they are not summoned and maintain a solid physical body and presumeably reproduce.
I have not seen where the lifecycle of the wolves is discussed.
Is it presumed that they have one, or has it been spelled out somewhere?

Also,

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
How do you explain Freki and Gheki, or Choosers of the slain?

Gork and Mork?

Spirit stones?

Inquisitorial Familiers?

I don't think the TSons are the only ones to employ such powerboosters...

A valid point, however we're not talking about Eldar, Orks, or Radical Inquisitors, we're talking about the Thousand Sons defending their actions to the Astartes Legions and the Emperor, additionally, Gork and Mork are Gods, and yes Gods(sentient warp entities) in 40k have been known to provide power, they are however not bonded to individuals of that race, Eldar Spirit stones are exactly thats, stones containing the spirits of ancestors of their race, not malign warp entities that siphon of the raw material of chaos in order to boost psychic skills, which isn't to say that there aren't safe ways to boost psychic powers, but the root of this is once again that the sons unknowingly made pacts with demons for power, and lastly Radical inquisitors using daemonhosts or bound daemon weaponry do so knowingly, the bind themselves with pacts to evil beings for the purpose of achieving their mission. Granted I am not defending what radicals do, I am saying that they aren't ignorant of what their doing, they may be guilty of the same hubris for sure, but they're under no illusions as to what may happen if they lose control of said beings.

Nurglitch wrote:Given the presence of creatures alluded to be Tyranids on Fenris, one might imagine that the 'wolves' have something really nasty lurking behind their minds.

agreed on that number, Fenris seems to have a good many deep dark secrets, all of a sudden the Dark Angels aren't looking so bad in comparison lol

Brother Heinrich wrote: Radical inquisitors using daemonhosts or bound daemon weaponry do so knowingly, the bind themselves with pacts to evil beings for the purpose of achieving their mission.

I was moreso referring to Cherubim...

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Brother Heinrich wrote: Radical inquisitors using daemonhosts or bound daemon weaponry do so knowingly, the bind themselves with pacts to evil beings for the purpose of achieving their mission.

I was moreso referring to Cherubim...

Ahh gotcha, I'm a little rusty on my Inquisitorial knowledge, I always thought the cherubim were simply aborted baby servitors or something.

Brother Heinrich wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Given the presence of creatures alluded to be Tyranids on Fenris, one might imagine that the 'wolves' have something really nasty lurking behind their minds.

agreed on that number, Fenris seems to have a good many deep dark secrets, all of a sudden the Dark Angels aren't looking so bad in comparison lol

In the Space wolf series it is hinted that the Canis Helix binds another soul to them something "dark" and "bestial" this might explain the Curse of the Wulfen as it sounds like they are possessed... admitedly by a very low level daemon but still some sort of daemon maybe not one from one of the big 4.
Also there are mutants on Fenris.

purplefood wrote:

Brother Heinrich wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Given the presence of creatures alluded to be Tyranids on Fenris, one might imagine that the 'wolves' have something really nasty lurking behind their minds.

agreed on that number, Fenris seems to have a good many deep dark secrets, all of a sudden the Dark Angels aren't looking so bad in comparison lol

In the Space wolf series it is hinted that the Canis Helix binds another soul to them something "dark" and "bestial" this might explain the Curse of the Wulfen as it sounds like they are possessed... admitedly by a very low level daemon but still some sort of daemon maybe not one from one of the big 4.
Also there are mutants on Fenris.

Damn I like the theory, a very valid point, I'd never thought of that but it definitely has some merit to it, Holy Terra the implications! an entire chapter soul bound to daemons! this will not end well...

Brother Heinrich wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Brother Heinrich wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Given the presence of creatures alluded to be Tyranids on Fenris, one might imagine that the 'wolves' have something really nasty lurking behind their minds.

agreed on that number, Fenris seems to have a good many deep dark secrets, all of a sudden the Dark Angels aren't looking so bad in comparison lol

In the Space wolf series it is hinted that the Canis Helix binds another soul to them something "dark" and "bestial" this might explain the Curse of the Wulfen as it sounds like they are possessed... admitedly by a very low level daemon but still some sort of daemon maybe not one from one of the big 4.
Also there are mutants on Fenris.

Damn I like the theory, a very valid point, I'd never thought of that but it definitely has some merit to it, Holy Terra the implications! an entire chapter soul bound to daemons! this will not end well...

They might be benign daemons there is apparently a lot of stories from when the Emporer visited Fenris that don't get told so he could have bound daemons into his service to p[osses the SW geneseed and then make them completly savage fighters to (as Dan Abnett says) act as a stopping force for any other legions that go rogue... of course it worked on Magnus but they can only be in 1 place at a time.

There other powers in the universe besides mortals and Warp "gods."

Manchu wrote:There other powers in the universe besides mortals and Warp "gods."

yeah like GW

Manchu wrote:There other powers in the universe besides mortals and Warp "gods."

I know which is why is said that the hypothetical daemons may not belong to one of the big 4.
They might have been looking for refuge from them or maybe they were just gods to the locals and the Emporer 'conscripted' them.

purplefood wrote:

Manchu wrote:There other powers in the universe besides mortals and Warp "gods."

I know which is why is said that the hypothetical daemons may not belong to one of the big 4.
They might have been looking for refuge from them or maybe they were just gods to the locals and the Emporer 'conscripted' them.

who knows, all I'm saying is look at the picture in the new codex of the space wolf holding up a daemons head, I can't help but notice there's a striking similarity between said space wolf and the head he's holding...

Brother Heinrich wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Manchu wrote:There other powers in the universe besides mortals and Warp "gods."

I know which is why is said that the hypothetical daemons may not belong to one of the big 4.
They might have been looking for refuge from them or maybe they were just gods to the locals and the Emporer 'conscripted' them.

who knows, all I'm saying is look at the picture in the new codex of the space wolf holding up a daemons head, I can't help but notice there's a striking similarity between said space wolf and the head he's holding...

Hence my theory which oddly enough seems to fit.
They get more and more feral under stress which could mean the daemon gets more and more power and changes their features to more wolfy/daemonic

Manchu wrote:There other powers in the universe besides mortals and Warp "gods."

Gork and Mork are just Khorne and Tzeentch anyways...

All Marines, through their Primarchs, have their origins in the Emperor's sorcery-science so they're ALL warp-influenced. My theory is that the SW were literally bred to be Primarch killers, the Emperor's watchdogs. One aspect of this breeding is their intense ferocity, another is their intense loyalty (yes, including their inherent distrust of the Ecclesiarchy). And before anyone asks quis custodiet ipsos custodes, consider how successful they've been with their Second Founding. The Emperor is truly a genius.

@Nurglitch: Gork and Mork tagteamed Khorne in one story.

I watch them.

Manchu:

So? Khorne fights anything and anyone, including aspects of himself: case in point is Skarbrand the Exiled. It's like that scene in Army of Darkness where Ash fights his own hand.

So Tzeentch tricks Khorne into thinking that Tzeentch is Mork and that Khorne is Gork so that they, Mork and Gork, can team up to fight Khorne?






Okay, I can buy that.

Genius he may be, but the heresy still blind-sided him like a mack truck.

Brother Heinrich wrote:Genius he may be, but the heresy still blind-sided him like a mack truck.

Love is blind, and the Emperor loved his sons.

I don't know about that, Heinrich. The only thing I'm convinced was truly a surprise was Magnus's disruptive psychic message.

purplefood wrote:

Brother Heinrich wrote:Genius he may be, but the heresy still blind-sided him like a mack truck.

Love is blind, and the Emperor loved his sons.

I forgot to mention, the license plate of said truck said "Paternal Love"

Farseeing ain't an exact science...

That's a fair point.

True enough however, I find it surprising that he failed to prepare for the possibility of betrayal, I mean from most of the fluff the Emperor appears to be a rather detached fellow, more akin to a power hungry dictator than a loving benevolent father, and even if he was he definitely picked favorites, I mean look at Angron, talk about being daddy's least favorite. The Emperor created the Primarchs to be generals and leaders of men, not because his internal daddy clock was ticking and he decided he wanted cute little babies he could knit Aquila hats for.

Brother Heinrich wrote:True enough however, I find it surprising that he failed to prepare for the possibility of betrayal, I mean from most of the fluff the Emperor appears to be a rather detached fellow, more akin to a power hungry dictator than a loving benevolent father, and even if he was he definitely picked favorites, I mean look at Angron, talk about being daddy's least favorite.

Your saying he wasn't paranoid enough?
I think the fact he didn't have any defensive measures against the primarchs was meant to show his trust in them.

purplefood wrote:

Brother Heinrich wrote:True enough however, I find it surprising that he failed to prepare for the possibility of betrayal, I mean from most of the fluff the Emperor appears to be a rather detached fellow, more akin to a power hungry dictator than a loving benevolent father, and even if he was he definitely picked favorites, I mean look at Angron, talk about being daddy's least favorite.

Your saying he wasn't paranoid enough?
I think the fact he didn't have any defensive measures against the primarchs was meant to show his trust in them.

True enough, well hindsight is 20/20 after all, too bad foresight isn't correctable with lasik surgery eh?

Personally I always thought of the "wolves" on Fenris as warp mutated beasts similar in vein to the beasts of Caliban. That could be the recognition in the Tsons eyes. The see the warp as it truly is in the connection between the "wolves" and the ether.

The tutelaries could have feared the presence of other warp entities inherent in the "wolves". All this speculation on my part however.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Spoiler:

A lot of people focus on the canis helix connection to explain the "No wolves on fenris" bit, but I think thats just a smokescreen to cover for something else. The implication throughout the book is that they are warp entities. There is a point in the story where the tutelaries are "frightened" and disappear as the fenrisian wolves pass by the thousand sons. That seems to suggest something much more than humans-made-wolves to me.

Like the supernatural beasties on Caliban. This really never occurred to me. It would make sense, though. Not the same thing exactly, but similar in nature, connected to the warp but also material. Warp-touched is NOT totally identical with 'corrupted by the 4 Greater Gods of Chaos', by the way. They are only the most powerful and influential. There are other powers, and much of the Warp is simply raw and formless energy, which is what untainted psykers draw upon. Permit me to take a tangent...



Pure abstraction, of course. I would be surprised if it is ever explained, or if the official explanation would resemble this.

BTW, I'm tempted to paraphrase a certain classic of the genre:

Ramandu wrote:"It's not as if he's a TAME wolf."

nurglitch wrote:Given the presence of creatures alluded to be Tyranids on Fenris, one might imagine that the 'wolves' have something really nasty lurking behind their minds.

Feral Tyranid creatures appear on a number of worlds, though. I guess the Fenris Kraken is what you're referring to?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Heinrich wrote:True enough, well hindsight is 20/20 after all, too bad foresight isn't correctable with lasik surgery eh?

I hear Ulthwe offers a pretty good deal on that, actually.

Yeah I don't buy it.

I mean that would have been some very serious tampering in order for the original colonists to completly turn into wolves or Wulfen, their is a differance between making something more adaptable and completly changing it's biology. As far as a Wulfen interbreeding with a fenrisian wolf, can't happen. Though they have wolf like characteristics Wulfen are still human at their core including the majority of their biology which means that they can't breed with wolves.

And if the original colonists had that much tampering then that means that their modern decendants on the planet would have the same trait and there has NEVER been any type of mention of a non SW becoming a Wulfen.

The Fenrisian Wolves are just that, wolves. They where brought by the original colonists and evolved in differant ways to better survive their environment. Some stayed fairly normal sized while others grew to huge sizes in order to hunt the larger more dangerous game like Trolls and Mammoth.

I kinda Exopheric's veiw of this; what if the wolves are daemons of the 'god of the storms' a warp based entity that the colonists began to belive in during old night? they saw the preditors of fenris and began to view them as the god of the storms minions?
this would also explain the powers of the rune priests.