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Sure Hesperax is fast, but she isn't written by dan abnett

Update. Got my new codex in my hands also! Wracks and Haemonculi starting the game with a pain token EACH is nice. Looks like my love affair with Incubi shall continue as well given their extra killing power. Hellions are also pretty tempting to field in future in their own right.

Ah leafblower....bubble wrapped squads for free pain tokens, essentially.

Apparently being able to move 36", and the huge advantage that gives, hasnt yet occured to DAR. Bikes are very good at removing bubble wraps (unit of 6 for the 2 melta lances, 2 caltrops gives 2D6 S6, 4D3 S4 hits. On average a unit of ten guard fall over...) letting you shoot more effectively. Extra range means you get behind the guard parking lot which cant turn around at all effectively unless you let the IG player cheat.

FAR stronger codex than their old one. Just requies even more thought and skill to play.

Ah leafblower....bubble wrapped squads for free pain tokens, essentially.

Apparently being able to move 36", and the huge advantage that gives, hasnt yet occured to DAR. Bikes are very good at removing bubble wraps (unit of 6 for the 2 melta lances, 2 caltrops gives 2D6 S6, 4D3 S4 hits. On average a unit of ten guard fall over...) letting you shoot more effectively. Extra range means you get behind the guard parking lot which cant turn around at all effectively unless you let the IG player cheat.

FAR stronger codex than their old one. Just requies even more thought and skill to play.

I'd agree. Speed kills here. Not only that, Dark Eldar are MORE durable now. If your opponent is fielding a heavy MSU list, they are going to be buffing your squads with FNP very quickly. If not, it isn't very hard to get pain tokens to start the game. Plenty of units give them out. Finally, the flickerfield (while not the be all to end all of durability) does provide some form of constant save for a relatively low cost. The ability to move 12" and fire all 3 of the Ravagers guns means that it can come in from reserves or DS in to do some real damage. The other HS choices give some nice flexibility as well.

Which brings me to my main point: choice. To me, a successful codex is one that allows for a myriad of different builds that can compete. Of course there will always be "very good" and "uncompetitive" units. But at the end of the day, I don't see there being a mono build that players are forced to use (like the old DE dex and plenty of other codices). I'm not going to sit here and claim the new Dark Eldar will be the easy button that is SW or BA, or provide the power of IG, but I do think they will be competitive. Hell, the old dex was competitive and it isn't nearly as good or flexible as the new one.

The key in lots of ways is the power of the troop section. Three viable troop choices allows players to create different builds. Hell, I'd bet that I can create a Hamonculus fluff based list that could be competitive in most games.

I live and die by the Shield of Sanguinius for Blood Angels, which is limited by a 6" range from my Librarian.

The constant 5++ even from close combat attacks is extremely underestimated. It's awesome.

I don't know what the OP is smoking because the codex is fine outside of a few units (mandrakes are pure fail and I'm not to keen on the Wytch HQ). There is a couple Special Characters that suck (Vect is overcosted, the decapator continues the mandrake fail train), but thats every book. Be prepared to see many army lists with The Duke, and Lady Malays.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Aetherse wrote:
Not many viable hqs have EW, I know Logan and DP have it but lack of EW hasn't stop people from using Mephiston (who is more expensive than Vect and loses to Vect 1 on 1) or Vulcan or Farseers. Archon's cout allows Nob level of wound allocation and Drazhar is absolutely impervious against hidden PK/PF because of his crazy ass jump.

Sanguinor

Any wolflord (saga of bear)
Why would you run saga of the Bear on this guy? Warrior born with a SS and just avoid hidden powerfists when you consolidate.

Any Rune Priest (Saga of bear)
Now you're just naming crap. Rune priests cant have saga of the bear.

Codex: Chaos Daemons (the entire dex)

Abbadon
I only ever see kids run him...

Phoenix lords
Because you see these alot... And for their points EW isn't going to save them.

just to name a few (there are many more)


Also, how do you figure Mephiston loses to Vect?

Assuming Vect has charge, vect will have 7 attacks missing 3 rerolling missting 1 causing 4 wounds(he does not reroll these). Mephiston strikes back hitting 3, rerolling, hitting 4(assuming vect fails his ld 6 test, which is more then likely). Wounding 2 rerolling wounding 3. if even 1 of these wounds passes the invul, vect dies. (Str 6 double toughs him). Also, BA have MUCH better ways of keeping mephiston safe (LRs and SRs to name a few) and buff units like S-Priests. Mephiston is also a lot more likely to get the charge (with 24" effective charge range) which further limits vects ability.

Also, Vect gets 1 shotted by a psycannon. So boo on him.

And yet Mehpeston has no invulerable save. 6 Dark Lances/Void Lances/Blasters over 2 turns will kill him and the land raider he is hiding behind quite easily. Plus we dont need Vect. A barely 150 point squad of Wyches can hold mepheston up for several turns, especially with that agonizer.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Aetherse wrote:
Urien now has Clone Field and t5 and mad regen, doesn't cost much either, he is a Coven version of Archon, Decapitator is not very useful though.

Urien's clone field is good in CC I guess, but outside of that, the lack of invul makes him very vunerable to much of the str 10 out there (believe me, there is alot). Also, 1 wound a turn is not "mad regen". He only has 3 total and he costs 190 points, and takes a FULL hq slot (not 1 of 3 Haemonculi).

What? You want to run him and 5 haemonculi? SC have never been incredible sans for 1 or 2 every other book that is released. Most of them are just themed or for fun.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Aetherse wrote:
You can get free pain tokens with Haemonculi, Drugs and shooting kills also give them.

Free pain tokens from haemonculi? Where did you read this? Do you mean the 1 pain token they get at the beginning of the game? Cool! Still not going to break that 4-6 average I listed.

Well... 2-3 to begin with, and then kill 2-4 units of MARINES, who sit minimum squads in vehicles and are 100% boring to play with or against. However then you hit other atmies like Eldar, who focus on their foot troops for mass fire and killing squads, Tau, with all the Kroot and fire warriors, and especially Tyranids, whose Tervigons you make useless as soon as you put your army on the table.

Furthermore, you dont need any more than 4-6. Wracks start with 1, and only need 1 more for their FC, easily obtained by an attached haemy.Wyches only need the FNP for survivability, and so only need to kill one squad, or maybe just get it immediately on the roll of a 6 for Combat Drugs. Warriors dont even need Tokens, but still only need 1 for the FNP survivability. Plus you can use ICs to swap Tokens between squads easily.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Aetherse wrote:
Dark Eldar absolutely murder meq just mathhammer it out if you want to know their average effectiveness. There are some things that most of the people can't see immediately, like Hekatrix killing TH/SS termies reliably.

Cool, too bad not all meq are TH/SS termies. The new DE are not NEARLY as good as they used to be against MEQ...

I beg to differ, they are much better now. 10 point Wracks that charge in with FNP and 3 attacks each rerolling wounds because of poison, plus the two Liquifier guns at S4 AP(D6) that shred squads in half no matter what you are fighting, 10 Point wyches that when they get FNP can just laugh at MEQ trying to hurt them (4++,4+FNP). And also have defencive grenades.

Now you are going to cry about our squads being shot up by bolters, but I fail to see how we will lose more than 1-3 models because I will claim a 4+ Cover from area terrain and a 4+ FNP.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Aetherse wrote:
Dark Eldar won't be easy use though but that is for entirely different reasons than what you mentioned. Rapid Fire is their bane as always, multishot weapons like HW Bolters, Scatter Lasers and Multi Lasers are going to be pain in the arse too but those weaknesses have always been there.

I'm guessing you don't have the new dex... only 1 weapon is RF, and if you mean them taking shots by RF, then it really depends on what is shooting them... I honestly believe you are still in the 3rd edition DE mindset based on what you have posted...

What? He just said that mass of fire will hurt us. And it will, but not much because of our tasty 4+ Cover/4+ FNP saves.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Haven't played a lot of DE with the old codex.
One thing that I felt (maybe incorrectly due to inexperience) was that a lot of the points values and choice limitations were rather restrictive.

yes

??? Maybe if you want to run too many elite/fast attack but I found the codex to be just fine. 3 HS, 5 Troops (3 of which are Wracks), and 3 Haemies is all I need. Its not the codex, its people thinking that elites make the army. Troops make the army, elites support it a little bit here and there.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
This I hoped would change with the new book.
Have these hopes been dashed?

yes

Before you didn't have nearly enough options, now you have too many and you are still unhappy? You do know that you can build more than one list right? There is no law stating you can only ever use one list.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Was also wanting to use Harlies

so sorry... if you want to waste your elites slots, more power to you, but they really don't have much of a home in the DE dex with the 7 other elites chocies....

Yes harlies have been and will continue to be suckish. But thats ok, because you have Incubi and wyches now.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Care to give an example of a list(from the new codex) that would fear only a handful of builds?

Haemonculi w/Liquifier Gun, Venom Blade, and Vexator Mask 75
Haemonculi w/Liquifier Gun and Vexator Mask 70

5xTruborn
3xBlasters, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon
170 Points

5xTruborn
3xBlasters, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon
170 Points

5xTruborn
2xBlasters, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon
155 Points

5xWarriors
Blaster, Sybrarite w/Blast Pistol, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon
150 Points

5xWarriors
Blaster, Sybrarite w/Blast Pistol, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon
150 Points

5xWarriors
Blaster, Sybrarite w/Blast Pistol, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon
150 Points

5xWarriors
Blaster, Sybrarite w/Blast Pistol, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon
150 Points

9xWracks
Liquifier Gun, Acothyst w/Agonizer, Raider w/Flickerfield, Grisly Trophies, and Dark Lance
205 Points

9xWracks
Liquifier Gun, Acothyst w/Agonizer, Raider w/Flickerfield, Grisly Trophies, and Dark Lance
205 Points

Ravager w/Flickerfield 115

Ravager w/Flickerfield 115

Ravager w/Flickerfield 115

2000 Points

Turn 1, Move up Venoms, Darklances target key anti-tank units.
Turn 2, Remaining tanks get Blastered and disembarked units get Dakkaed away by the Venoms
Turn 3, Wracks clean up the mess

The only real list that gives this trouble is the razorback spam since they carry a lot of heavy weapons and MEQs are not really easy to Dakka-away.

My main point was that there didn't previously seem to be many viable options, and I was getting the impression that this still may be the case.

Harlies could have been another option.
I like the fluff. And no I won't in that case play Eldar instead, becuase I don't want another Army.

I was simply hoping it might be worth buying some new figures to convert to Harlies. I am not gonna buy new DE models just for the sake of them being supercool.
I already have enough of the old ones. Heretical though it may seem, I'm happy with that.

But thanks for the input, will save my cash for something else.

Probably food

Brother SRM wrote:When the Tyranids codex came out everybody was saying that the sky was falling because they had an awful, awful codex. 7 months on people have actually learned to play the army, and there's no real outstanding problems aside from some poorly worded rules.

In other words, don't let the OP's first impressions sway you from having an army of totally sweet looking space pirates. They'll be fine.

^
Only sensible post in this thread....

Sure this is a "First impressions" thread but how can you possibly know if a code is junk without having played with/against it for a decent amount of time.
Atleast if it all goes wrong we can still use the "well your models look gak compaired to mine" card

I find the notion of this codex being "underwelming" not amusing, but in fact a, LOL-fest.

Almost the entirety of 40kWreckingCrew (which houses several MULTIPLE GT winners) are hurriedly getting their own DE armies together with bloodthirsty relish.

Many HIGH-LEVEL tournament players from many different camps have given this codex a complete stamp of approval...all you gotta do is look around the internet a bit.


The Dark Eldar Codex may not be as OBVIOUS as other codex's out there, but the power and tools for winning high level competetive play is very much in there.

If you cannot see it, go back to your space-wolf army, go to some GT's this year, and watch how fast you get eviscerated by a Dark Eldar player who goes on to win the Tournament.



Watch, I guarantee people will be winning with this dex right alongside Mech Guard, Space Wolves, and BA's. Not posting any lists, not quoting any rules, simply saying....it's gonna happen. This dex is VERY competetive.

the DE army will make mince meat out of the thunderwolf army. however I think the missile launcher spam will do just fine..... I mean its exactly what you want to knock down all those armor 10 vehicles, right?

AbaddonFidelis wrote:the DE army will make mince meat out of the thunderwolf army. however I think the missile launcher spam will do just fine..... I mean its exactly what you want to knock down all those armor 10 vehicles, right?

unless your opponent doesn't takes a DE mech list, which is doable in this codex.

You know what's 'underwelming'?

8 Incubi and an Archon with Feel No Pain getting a first turn charge off against a target 29" away.

Yea, that sucks pretty bad.



(my list does it)

AbaddonFidelis wrote:the DE army will make mince meat out of the thunderwolf army. however I think the missile launcher spam will do just fine..... I mean its exactly what you want to knock down all those armor 10 vehicles, right?

But then again if DE can get into melee by maneuvering well the Wolves are in world of trouble. Dark Eldar will most likely lose in a prolonged shoot out though.

You shouldn't state that some random list is unbeatable because the decisions and luck during the game are a more important factor than pure listbuilding. No one really knows what kind of beasts DE are and most of the people can't learn to beat a new army by just reading the book instead of actually playing.

DE players will have very good codex in this edition and the number of options for both fluff-bunnies and WAAC-nerds is just amazing.

Personally I can't go back to my Wolfies as they
are still on the sprue

It is going to be a little while before I will be able to get a new DE codex. So it would be nice to get some feel for what to expect beforehand.

If DE are not an easy Army to use, and I have little experience in 40K let alone the DE playstyle, it is not so straightforward to see what more experience players can, so it would be nice to get some benefit of your experience rather than scorn and contempt.

I realise people will have different expectations and some will be disappointent more than others, but please bear in mind some of us are trying to learn.

Aetherse wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:the DE army will make mince meat out of the thunderwolf army. however I think the missile launcher spam will do just fine..... I mean its exactly what you want to knock down all those armor 10 vehicles, right?

But then again if DE can get into melee by maneuvering well the Wolves are in world of trouble. Dark Eldar will most likely lose in a prolonged shoot out though.

You shouldn't state that some random list is unbeatable because the decisions and luck during the game are a more important factor than pure listbuilding. No one really knows what kind of beasts DE are and most of the people can't learn to beat a new army by just reading the book instead of actually playing.

DE players will have very good codex in this edition and the number of options for both fluff-bunnies and WAAC-nerds is just amazing.

well assuming no wild swings of luck and roughly equal playing abilities. thunderwolves are a lot easier to deal with if you have poisoned weapons, which DE do everywhere, so thats why I say they'll be able to make mince meat out of them. also they can hit the thunder wolves with higher initiative close combat nastiness, so I think those guys will be... errr.... at a serious disadvantage.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Aetherse wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:the DE army will make mince meat out of the thunderwolf army. however I think the missile launcher spam will do just fine..... I mean its exactly what you want to knock down all those armor 10 vehicles, right?

But then again if DE can get into melee by maneuvering well the Wolves are in world of trouble. Dark Eldar will most likely lose in a prolonged shoot out though.

You shouldn't state that some random list is unbeatable because the decisions and luck during the game are a more important factor than pure listbuilding. No one really knows what kind of beasts DE are and most of the people can't learn to beat a new army by just reading the book instead of actually playing.

DE players will have very good codex in this edition and the number of options for both fluff-bunnies and WAAC-nerds is just amazing.

well assuming no wild swings of luck and roughly equal playing abilities. thunderwolves are a lot easier to deal with if you have poisoned weapons, which DE do everywhere, so thats why I say they'll be able to make mince meat out of them. also they can hit the thunder wolves with higher initiative close combat nastiness, so I think those guys will be... errr.... at a serious disadvantage.

Yeah DE will probably reduce the number of Rock armies around because no one likes to have half of their points tarpitted or even killed by simple Wyches. Bike councils for example will be very afraid of Shattershard, template that doesn't allow saves of any kind and removes models from the table if they fail a toughness test.

yes. agree. the wounds test thing looked pretty weird too. I think thats the first time they've made you take a characterstic test on your wounds value.

29"? Most i get is 27" (12", disembark ~2.9, fleet 6", assault 6")

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
If DE are not an easy Army to use, and I have little experience in 40K let alone the DE playstyle, it is not so straightforward to see what more experience players can, so it would be nice to get some benefit of your experience rather than scorn and contempt.

I realise people will have different expectations and some will be disappointent more than others, but please bear in mind some of us are trying to learn.

Sorry Chibi, I like you (and your avatar) and everything, but this isn't a particularly viable argument. Codex's such as Dark Eldar and Eldar (and arguably Daemons, Grey Knights etc.) are known for having a steep learning curve.

If you go with Dark Eldar or Eldar you should really be expecting it to be a difficult learning process, but if anything that can make the codex more appealing to some. Some codices are supposed to be more forgiving (MeQ) to help the more inexperienced players, Dark Eldar and Eldar aren't. They are supposed to be tricky to use and unless you are willing to face this learning curve then they really aren't the army for you...


For one thing, Chibi's post isn't even what the OP was suggesting, but many of the (more recent) posts here have shown how much support there is for the Dark Eldar codex and its competitiveness. Similarly, these posts have been provided a lot more support and evidence than those of the OP...
The general consensus (and rightly so IMHO) is that the Dark Eldar Codex is really good, still very competitive but still difficult to use. And rightly so IMHO.

So here we all are eagerly awaiting with anticipation to the newest codex and release....and I we have to go on is that Kelly is racist? Does anyone care about caustic remarks being made? May this thread die harder than bruce Willis!

nosferatu1001 wrote:29"? Most i get is 27" (12", disembark ~2.9, fleet 6", assault 6")

+2" for starting sideways on the deployment edge and pivoting b4 movement. Raiders are LOONG!

Sort of cheap, but from my understanding...everyone is doing it nowadays.

Ah right, forgot the pivot trick

Everyone has been doing it since 3rd actually....

I understand all that Dave

But what I was getting from this thread was contradictory.
If the concensus from long time players is that the new codex is giving the DE a lift (which seemed necessary imho whether or not they are not easy to play) without making them crazy or over powered, then i am reassured.

Also the learning curve may be steep it just means I need to learn. Some of that will come from others' experiences.
I wasn't asking for easy fixes.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Also, it confirms the rumor that Phil Kelly hate Tyranids (as this dex COMPLETELY smashes Gav's nid book).

Good to see a well founded comparison with Gav's Tyranid book, when everyone else thinks that Robin Cruddace has written it

I think it's a great codex but maybe someone held a gun to Phil's head while he wrote it.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:I think it's a great codex but maybe someone held a gun to Phil's head while he wrote it.

"Someone" obviously is the people who waited 12 years for this, but what makes you say that?

What I meant was the codex appears to be very balanced and not over the top like his SW codex.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:What I meant was the codex appears to be very balanced and not over the top like his SW codex.

Because D.E is not S.M? Duh...