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Actually Eldrad is 210 points but still I dunno I've seen some pretty epic fails with him (but that is a different story) Avatar T6 3+ sure immune to melta but is that really all that great? Probably not I mean bolters can still kill him and that is an issuem despite what mathhammer may say I've seen 1 tac squad drop him the second they fire at him easy.

Yeah they are expensive like I said, well does close combat ability truly matter? Probably not but for the sake of it they are S5 T6 and 3+ so they are just as hard to kill as the avatar (minus the immunity to meltas) why would run 5 with a warlock to begin with? You can always run 3+lock+wave serpent for 251pts thats cheaper.

I wouldnt say almost they seem pretty good for what they can do I mean reapers delive ranged power sure not many of them but the extra range does help. As for warp spiders why does it matter that they have no AP? I mean 5 plus exarch with x2 deathspinners is alot of shots so even if they did have AP (which would likely be low to begin with) it would not affect how many Tac Marines you kill.

And what about the night spinner? I mean it dosent seem all that bad.

Well, the question is why is Eldard getting shot by bolters? He isn't a combat character at all. He has some ability to deal a wound or two if needed but should be entirely support based. And he is pretty good at in. In a Wave Serpent he has very solid range. He should be in one all game.

A tactical squad dropping an Avatar? I'll even give you a plasma gun in there. 18 bolter shots, 12 hit, 2 wound, .66 failed saves. 2 plasma shots 1.33 hit, .87 wounds, .43 failed inv saves. So he might take a single wound. If he's fortune'd he takes nothing. Also, the Tactical squad hits him in CC on a 5+, so the powerfist isn't close to a guarantee. He doesn't chew up and spit out units, but he is a real tough threat. Anecdotal evidence of him dying randomly to a tac squad is just not valid. I've had my Daemon Prince get wounded by and fail 4/4 saves versus Dire Avengers in 1 turn. It doesn't mean that has much of any chance to happen. For 155 points the Avatar is a good value. His fearless bubble is nice.

As to the Wraithguard...they are bad. Period. They have to have a warlock or risk locking up on the likely one turn you will get to shoot with them. They have one shot at 12". Out of the 5 that fit in a Serpent 3 will likely hit. Then roll to wound and likely deal 3 wounds. All for the small price of 300+ points. And then they get charged in which they have high toughness, but nothing else of value. They are slow, 1 attack, and will get beaten based on the fact that they have no offensive capability in CC.They are horrid.

As to the Spiders and Reapers, they are simply not in line with their points. Spiders are expensive and fragile. They don't get that many strength 6 shots for what you pay. I suppose they are anti hoard, but really aren't all the efficient. If you catch them, they will die an awful death. At 18" range, they will be caught versus fast armies.

Reapers are not efficient points wise. They are far too many points for something that is entirely focused on ranged anti MEQ. That's all they do well. They are sub par versus monstrous creatures. They are horrible versus vehicles. 10 of them is 350 points. 20 shots, 15 hit, 10 wounds on MEQ. At Range the MEQ likely have cover (this is 5th edition here) So 5 die. That's after catching them outside a transport. So not good for the cost.

The bottom line is that Eldar units add up too quickly and are not in line point wise with the rest of the game. I have seen all of the units used. They are very limited from a competitive standpoint. You CAN take the many, many "fun units' in the codex. But they aren't good. They barely have a niche and likely won't be as fun as you expect.

It's really because guardians are bad. They are not a true asset to the Eldar Codex. Kabalite Warriors are good. They are an asset to the DE. Although they are similar in points cost and tabletop role (sorta) the codexes have different strengths in different areas.

JGrand wrote:

Actually Eldrad is 210 points but still I dunno I've seen some pretty epic fails with him (but that is a different story) Avatar T6 3+ sure immune to melta but is that really all that great? Probably not I mean bolters can still kill him and that is an issuem despite what mathhammer may say I've seen 1 tac squad drop him the second they fire at him easy.

Yeah they are expensive like I said, well does close combat ability truly matter? Probably not but for the sake of it they are S5 T6 and 3+ so they are just as hard to kill as the avatar (minus the immunity to meltas) why would run 5 with a warlock to begin with? You can always run 3+lock+wave serpent for 251pts thats cheaper.

I wouldnt say almost they seem pretty good for what they can do I mean reapers delive ranged power sure not many of them but the extra range does help. As for warp spiders why does it matter that they have no AP? I mean 5 plus exarch with x2 deathspinners is alot of shots so even if they did have AP (which would likely be low to begin with) it would not affect how many Tac Marines you kill.

And what about the night spinner? I mean it dosent seem all that bad.

Well, the question is why is Eldard getting shot by bolters? He isn't a combat character at all. He has some ability to deal a wound or two if needed but should be entirely support based. And he is pretty good at in. In a Wave Serpent he has very solid range. He should be in one all game.

A tactical squad dropping an Avatar? I'll even give you a plasma gun in there. 18 bolter shots, 12 hit, 2 wound, .66 failed saves. 2 plasma shots 1.33 hit, .87 wounds, .43 failed inv saves. So he might take a single wound. If he's fortune'd he takes nothing. Also, the Tactical squad hits him in CC on a 5+, so the powerfist isn't close to a guarantee. He doesn't chew up and spit out units, but he is a real tough threat. Anecdotal evidence of him dying randomly to a tac squad is just not valid. I've had my Daemon Prince get wounded by and fail 4/4 saves versus Dire Avengers in 1 turn. It doesn't mean that has much of any chance to happen. For 155 points the Avatar is a good value. His fearless bubble is nice.

As to the Wraithguard...they are bad. Period. They have to have a warlock or risk locking up on the likely one turn you will get to shoot with them. They have one shot at 12". Out of the 5 that fit in a Serpent 3 will likely hit. Then roll to wound and likely deal 3 wounds. All for the small price of 300+ points. And then they get charged in which they have high toughness, but nothing else of value. They are slow, 1 attack, and will get beaten based on the fact that they have no offensive capability in CC.They are horrid.

As to the Spiders and Reapers, they are simply not in line with their points. Spiders are expensive and fragile. They don't get that many strength 6 shots for what you pay. I suppose they are anti hoard, but really aren't all the efficient. If you catch them, they will die an awful death. At 18" range, they will be caught versus fast armies.

Reapers are not efficient points wise. They are far too many points for something that is entirely focused on ranged anti MEQ. That's all they do well. They are sub par versus monstrous creatures. They are horrible versus vehicles. 10 of them is 350 points. 20 shots, 15 hit, 10 wounds on MEQ. At Range the MEQ likely have cover (this is 5th edition here) So 5 die. That's after catching them outside a transport. So not good for the cost.

The bottom line is that Eldar units add up too quickly and are not in line point wise with the rest of the game. I have seen all of the units used. They are very limited from a competitive standpoint. You CAN take the many, many "fun units' in the codex. But they aren't good. They barely have a niche and likely won't be as fun as you expect.

Well to start with Eldard I do not play eldar period. However I have fought him and I think you should be asking why did he get blasted by a Dark Lance

Oh yeah no joke my friend in the last Ard' Boyz droped him turn 2 after 1 simple round of bolter fire with one simple 10 man tac squad, remember mathhammer dosent always define anything of the game.

I've seen crafty use for them (mostly either hero hunting, or temie hunters) also I fail to see how S5 T6 is crap CC that is above average. Still once that warlock is dead they tend to do nothing when you need them most. Also like I said 3 wraith guard + lock with spiritseer, and a waveserpent with scatter laser done 251pts.

Well in the defense of the fragile issue of warpspiders they are still eldar you cant expect a T4+ to be so common, not to mention take an exarch with 2 deathspinners and withdrawl ability their high I can allow them to get away before things get ugly. Seeing how exarch is I6.

As for reapers yes they arent meant for wrecking tanks (maybe lighter vehicles due to S5 shots but meh) their purpose is long range anti-infantry support. Despite it being a 5 man sqaud they tend to come as cheaper than 3 war walkers (counting the reapers having an exarch and both abilities) granted that it usually isnt by much at times.

Also you still have not said anything about the Night Spinner, any comments about that? Any commander worth his or her salt can make a unit competitive, the difference between a unit being labeled as bad or good is general perception and incompotence by commanders.
If you think Eldar are not in line point wise I think you may wanna check out those necrons they are much worse off than Eldar.

I can't say that I agree with the opinion that the Eldar have a bad Codex. Do they have bad units? Sure, but only a few. Are most of their units overpriced? Absolutely, but not by much. I had the same experience with the old Dark Elf book - people complained and complained about it, but the book was actually okay even though most units were a little bit 'off'.

Based on my experience with Eldar over the past few years (admittedly, not usually against strong competition, save for the 'Ard Boyz tournament) they're a fine army. The tank are all good, though only the Fire Prism is fairly priced. Most of the Aspect Warriors are very good if you get them in the right situation (Fire Dragons against tanks, Banshees attacking small units), though getting them in the right situation almost always requires a transport, so that can be a bit limiting. Even maligned units like Shining Spears can be absolutely awesome if you use them right.

The strength of an army is not determined by its individual units, but rather by how all of the disparate parts cooperate on the battlefield. Eldar, with their high mobility and ability to absolutely destroy any given target in one round, combined with some fairly tough tanks and units, are very much a combined arms force. Howling Banshees on their own might be underwhelming, but when combined with supporting fire from tanks, psychic power buffs, and charging Shining Spears, they're pretty scary.

JGrand wrote:

At the basis of the argument, Defender Guardians are probably one of the worst troop choices in the game since they seem to be overcosted and dont really know what they're suppose to do. However there are other great choices in the Codex, namely the Wraithlord (as said, one of the only two creatures in non-apoc games with T8, the other being the C'tan Nightbringer), pathfinders (who due to the wording in the codex now gets rending on both to hit and to wound) and Banshees (who never really sucked to begin with). Dire Avengers are also probably the most tactically flexible units after actual Tactical Squads.

I disagree with just about all of this. Wraithlord has a high toughness and people get enamored by that. They have only three wounds and die very easily to anti tank fire as they have no invulnerable save and are hard pressed to find cover. They are slow, and really aren't very good in close combat. They average 1 kill per turn against WS 4 foes. Which leaves them in a shooting role, in which they have to pay for incredibly over costed weapons. War Walkers do it better. The Wraithlord just isn't very good.

Pathfinders are ok, until you realize they are 25 points each. They also rely on fighting non-mech armies (almost everyone is) or hitting de-meched targets. Even then, 1 shot each means and expensive unit gets 1-2 kills depending on the roll. They die so easily to anything up close and deep stikers. Not that good.

The Banshees are not good. They look like it on paper, but are nothing but an overpriced counter assault unit. They cannot actively go after targets because they have to wait to disembark. Wave Serpents can't pivot if you want the Banshees to charge. Which means that you basically have to zoom right up to an opponent, survive in the WS, then get out and run the distance up the WS to reach combat. The destruction of a Wave Serpent hurts their T3 4+ a whole lot. Any shooting destroys them. They are completely reliant on charging a doomed target. Bottom line with these guys; if you want a counter assault unit the Avatar does it for cheap. If you are playing assault Eldar, you are playing them wrong.

Dire Avengers are absolutely not tactically flexible. They can be run bare bones (aka ineffective), kitted for shooting (aka expensive hoard killer), or shimmer shield tarpit (aka expensive tarpit). There is nothing flexible about them. They are not durable at all. They are horrible in assault. They are ok versus hoards. The problem is that a kitted out 10 man squad with a Dual Shriukat Bladestroming Exarch in a Wave Serpent is around 260+ points. They are effective against hoards and nothing else.

The Eldar codex is bad because it is so limited. Everything is so expensive and adds up so fast. A Wave Serpent is good, but also clock in at 110+ with a missile launcher and spirit stones.

HQ- Eldrad at 1250+, Farseer, Avatar are the choices
Elites- Fire Dragons. Seriously, the rest are not good.
Troops- Min squads of Avengers in Wave Serpents is the most competitive. Guardians suck. Bikes aren't that good either. As over priced as they are, the Eldar need troops in the Serpents to cap objectives.
Fast Attack- not very good. Shining Spears, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, and Vipers all cost too much for marginal at best units.
Heavy Support- Fire Prism with holo field and stones or War Walkers. That's it.

I'm not one to proclaim units flat out bad all that often. I have seen my main opponent try just about every unit/build imaginable with Eldar over the course of a year and a half. They have some real inherent issues. As I've said in a previous post, they can win in the context of the game. They do not have lots of flexibility in making a competitive build. They end up being a small elite army that is only moderately durable and lacking in real fire power. Eldar need an codex update pretty badly.

I forgot to include the Avatar and Fire Prisms, my bad.

And as for the others I still stand by them. With S10 Wraithlords can insta-kill most HQ choices and multi-wound unit models very easily (Warriors and Ogryns come to mind, which the Wraithlord can make it into combat with very easily). Armed with a Bright Lance they can also blow the crap out of tanks, both ranged and close up. They lack anti-horde, but charge them into a unit of MEQ or Guard, especially one without a Power Fist, and just watch them die a slow but horrible death. I've seen Wraithlords do alot of damage before going down. That T8 helps alot for it's survival. And as far as Eldar go, Dire Avengers are pretty flexible. While they have to commit to a single role, two Dire Avenger squad never HAVE to do the same thing. I personally run alot of banshees and I stand by them. Making effective use of cover allows them to close in on the enemy. Using the Wave Serpent as a moving cover after they disembark also migate enemy shooting (which is what my friend did to me, and believe me it worked the way he pivoted the serpent). And as a counter assault troops, they are so much better than the Avatar. With the Executioner on an Exarch, a full squad of Banshees cost just 20 or so more points than a single avatar, but bring on so much more attacks it's ridiculous. They still ignore armor, but you get almost 30 attacks compared to the Avatar's meager 5. Pathfinders are incredibly durable and survivable, which is great since they're a troop choice. a 2+ cover save in most cases means that they're not gonna be dislodged anytime soon. Only a termicide squad with a heavy flamer will dislodge them, and that's assuming they dont DS too far away. If they do DS too far away, they wont be able to fire the flamer and will likely get headshot the next turn. You also seem to bash the Wave Serpent alot. For a transport it's got a really high armor value. Sure it's a bit of a waste to treat it like a rhino, but consider this: it's just as heavily armored as your Prisms. One wrecked Serpent is a small price to pay to keep the pressure off your Prisms and protecting your assault troops.

ShadowZetki wrote:What ever happened to the Dark Reapers? I mean they arent crap you know S5 AP3 48" Heavy 2 that isnt bad, although 5 guys counting the exarch is rather low but still add in crackshot or quickshot and they can do some good there.

Dark Reaper Exarch abilities ONLY apply to the Exarch, and not to the rest of the squad.

Also, they take a Heavy Support slot, which means that they're competing against Falcons, Fire Prisms, Night Spinners, and Wraithlords.

(which, incidentally, is also one of the reasons that you rarely if ever see Eldar Heavy Support weapons on the battlefield)

Well to start with Eldard I do not play eldar period. However I have fought him and I think you should be asking why did he get blasted by a Dark Lance

Either way. He shouldn't be out of a WS or on his own. He is not a combat character. Anecdotal evidence doesn't make him bad. He is a Farseer+ and a great deal.

Oh yeah no joke my friend in the last Ard' Boyz droped him turn 2 after 1 simple round of bolter fire with one simple 10 man tac squad, remember mathhammer dosent always define anything of the game.

Sure, but it doesn't mean this is likely or probably. I broke down the math. You are not LIKELY to do more than one wound because of rapid fire. After which that Tac squad is in for a world of hurt. I don't see how your friend getting lucky means anything or has any relevance. It is anecdotal evidence. of an incredibly improbably situation. Next.

I've seen crafty use for them (mostly either hero hunting, or temie hunters) also I fail to see how S5 T6 is crap CC that is above average. Still once that warlock is dead they tend to do nothing when you need them most. Also like I said 3 wraith guard + lock with spiritseer, and a waveserpent with scatter laser done 251pts.

251 points for what? I guess if you can catch a Hive Tyrant or something in the open and plan on getting lucky. 250 points for a suicide unit that gets 3 shots, and on average hits with 2 is beyond bad. 3 wounds at T6 isn't such an improbable and impossible target to take down in close combat. They aren't likely to kill anything due to having 3 attacks. At best they tarpit for a turn. At worst they die fast. Why not just use the far superior fire dragons for more melta shots at a cheaper price?

Well in the defense of the fragile issue of warpspiders they are still eldar you cant expect a T4+ to be so common, not to mention take an exarch with 2 deathspinners and withdrawl ability their high I can allow them to get away before things get ugly. Seeing how exarch is I6.

As for the Warp Spiders, upon getting home and looking at my codex I see I have given them too much credit. 12" guns means they are charged after they shoot. 22 points a model means they are expensive doing it. Hit and run is ok. You still have to take a round of assault after getting shot. 5 with a kitted exarch is 150 points. That's for either 8 st 6 shots with 1 ap 1 shot or 12" st 6 shots. Not horrible anti hoard, but each loss is pretty rough at 22 points. Against MEQ they are 8 shots at BS 4, 6 hit, 5 wound, 2 dead. 4 shots at BS 5, 3 hit, roughly 3 wound, 1 more dead. 150 points to kill 3 marines before getting charged. Overcosted unit.

As for reapers yes they arent meant for wrecking tanks (maybe lighter vehicles due to S5 shots but meh) their purpose is long range anti-infantry support. Despite it being a 5 man sqaud they tend to come as cheaper than 3 war walkers (counting the reapers having an exarch and both abilities) granted that it usually isnt by much at times.

A 3 man War Walker squad with 2x Scatter Lazers each is 180 points. They shoot 24 st 6 shots a turn. Combine with guide and you have one of the best configurations in the codex. That many shots is a threat to anything. 5 Dark Reapers are 175 points. They have 10 st 5 shots. One more AP. There is no comparison when it comes to versatility.

Also you still have not said anything about the Night Spinner, any comments about that?

Haven't seen it used actually. I believe it has no ap as well. Anti hoard? Why not just take a Fire Prism which can link up and do anti hoard and anti tank?

Any commander worth his or her salt can make a unit competitive, the difference between a unit being labeled as bad or good is general perception and incompotence by commanders.

Not true. A good commander (which most people aren't) can win a game with a sub par army. A good commander can make a unit better. A good commander cannot make dog poo into gold. I have seen every Eldar unit used. I have played against them and as them. I am also not quick to label something "uncompetitive". There is a big difference between "inefficient" and uncompetitive. I believe that most of the Eldar codex is uncompetitive. The dex is showing it's age, and relies on a mono-build to compete. Do I think someone who knows what they are doing can have fun and do some decent things with a unit of Banshees or Swooping Hawks in a fun environment? Sure. If you take these units against a good opponent with a competitive list you are at a big disadvantage though.

Not trying to be an ass, but it's a bit ironic you are attempting to call people "incompetent" for not using units correctly but ended up spelling the word wrong.

If you think Eldar are not in line point wise I think you may wanna check out those necrons they are much worse off than Eldar.

For sure. I never said Eldar were the worst. I think Grey Knights, Tau, Necrons, and Sisters are all worse off at the moment. They are very similar in lots of ways. All rely on a mono build to be competitive. All of them have over priced units that have no place outside a "for fun" game. The Eldar can win, they just won't if you load up on 250 point, 3 shot suicide units and expect to defy probability.

You missed assault jump - an average 7" move puts them out of range of assault again.

JGrand wrote:Haven't seen it used actually. I believe it has no ap as well. Anti hoard? Why not just take a Fire Prism which can link up and do anti hoard and anti tank?

The big advantage of the Nightspinner is that it can also affect models that aren't under the template. Assume, for instance, that you have three big squads of Boyz clustered around a Mek with a KFF, all taking advantage of his cover save. If you can arrange the Nightspinner template so that all three squads have at least one model underneath the template, then the every last member of all three squads is forced to take a dangerous terrain test the next time they move. Or in other words, a well-positioned template can kill a LOT of models.

Of course, the likelihood of that happening depends a lot on the metagame in your local area.

JGrand wrote:
Dire Avengers are absolutely not tactically flexible. They can be run bare bones (aka ineffective), kitted for shooting (aka expensive hoard killer), or shimmer shield tarpit (aka expensive tarpit). There is nothing flexible about them. They are not durable at all. They are horrible in assault. They are ok versus hoards. The problem is that a kitted out 10 man squad with a Dual Shriukat Bladestroming Exarch in a Wave Serpent is around 260+ points. They are effective against hoards and nothing else.

Eldar are an army of specialists, that means flexibility and its lack there of is there weakness. While I think there is much in that book to complain about, I don't think that is one of them. All Eldar and elf archetypes from GW are pricey fragile units that generally only have one specific way of playing. I really can't speak too much for Dire Avengers beyond saying they have a strong anti-horde shooting ability that really compliments the rest of their army. Dark Eldar units are generally more self reliant units than the craftworlder's and while that makes them come off as better off and more flexible, they have any of the same weaknesses and the DE do see trade offs relative to the craftworlds.

Yes I do now realise I spelt incompetence wrong I know I was supposed to check something.

Anyway but yes the avatar is a great unit and can really bring some pain, I'm mostly just saying it was hilarious to see that guy flip a bitch.

I've seens ome people whom are good with wraithguard in theory and in use I am not one of them still the one wound and lack of an Inv is something that keeps them away

Are you sure the Exarchs abilities dont also affect the squad?

Yeah 12" guns are bad but hey there are always swooping hawks, or vypers, and I believe shining spears? Those arent too bad if you dont like warp spyders

Its odd because I have never seen an enemy war walker running about, still need to play someone who uses those.

Hmm I kinda wanted to know because I have a game against a friend of mine and he is going to use the nightspinner

I will agree that it is showing its age but umm what edition is it? I can hardly keep up anymore.

ShadowZetki wrote:Are you sure the Exarchs abilities dont also affect the squad?

Each Exarch ability states in its description whether the ability affects the entire squad or just the Exarch. Some Exarchs affect the squad with both of their abilities. Some only affect the squad with one.

The Dark Reaper Exarch is unique in that neither of its abilities affect the squad that it is a part of. Fast Shot and Crack Shot both only affect the Exarch (note that Fire Dragon Exarchs can also take Crack Shot, and once again the ability only affects the Exarch).

Its odd because I have never seen an enemy war walker running about, still need to play someone who uses those.

Most of your opponents are probably using Fire Prisms or Falcons instead. Just about every single "must have" choice in the Eldar Codex is in the Heavy slot.

Oh I see well that makes more sense, then again it makes no sense that such a thing dosent affect the reapers

Actually funny enough I usually see 2 wraithlords and 1 fire prism or sometimes 2 fireprims and 1 wraithlord but still I see your point.

What edition are the eldar in again? I want to say 4th edition codex but I might be wrong

Yeah, for the time being, since I don tthink another Eldar codex in is the making at the moment, seems like they have just antiquated an entire race...which is awesome because I was just beginning my Eldar army!

Sure is a lot of heroes around here talking about a codex they haven't even played.

ShadowZetki they were designed for 4th ed, but unlike the other codexes that seem to focus on making that army super special awesome, Eldar were focused to make them more "balanced", which is a fancier way of saying they were toned down because they were schooling Marines.

Almost everything was increased in price. For example, the Avatar that everyone is creaming themselves over nearly doubled in price for better armour, immunity to melta and flame, as well as it's own short range melta. While these were all upgrades, I'm not sure it had to double in price for them.

Some things did go down in price thankfully, but that's only because their original price was so slowed to begin with. I mean, 50 points per Shining Spear? Really?

We're getting off the main topic though, which wasn't "Are Eldar a bad army" but more "Eldar Troops are bad". In 5th Ed troops are more important than ever, as they are needed to hold objectives. Not only that, but you want said troops to be able to do something as well.

As it currently stands, the only good troops choice is to have Eldar in Wave Serpents, because they can do little else:

Guardians are overpriced Guardsmen with a 12" range and only one heavy weapon per 10 models and no other special rules.
Dire Avengers are slightly better Guardians with better range but no CC proficiency. You want them shooting things, not storming objectives.
Rangers/Pathfinders are horribly expensive but decent snipers. 2+ cover is great until things get near them and you'll need a lot of them to do any decent shooting.
Jetbikes are alright, but True LoS + flying bases = harder to get cover and again, no CC proficiency at all.

So we have weak troops who can bearly fire across the battlefield standing around on objectives waiting for something to get close or waiting for eventual death from the hands of Deep striking Marines with flamers or something else that ignores the cover they require to even function. You can't run them across the battlefield, you can't even assault them into objectives, and no, I'm not going to use Guardian Storm Squads because they suck. They can't even get grenades any more and they get no power weapons of any kind. Oh sure you can give them flamers and the Warlock destructor, but that means less attacks and no enhance or embolden.

Sure is a lot of heroes around here talking about a codex they haven't even played.

ShadowZetki they were designed for 4th ed, but unlike the other codexes that seem to focus on making that army super special awesome, Eldar were focused to make them more "balanced", which is a fancier way of saying they were toned down because they were schooling Marines.

Almost everything was increased in price. For example, the Avatar that everyone is creaming themselves over nearly doubled in price for better armour, immunity to melta and flame, as well as it's own short range melta. While these were all upgrades, I'm not sure it had to double in price for them.

Some things did go down in price thankfully, but that's only because their original price was so slowed to begin with. I mean, 50 points per Shining Spear? Really?

We're getting off the main topic though, which wasn't "Are Eldar a bad army" but more "Eldar Troops are bad". In 5th Ed troops are more important than ever, as they are needed to hold objectives. Not only that, but you want said troops to be able to do something as well.

As it currently stands, the only good troops choice is to have Eldar in Wave Serpents, because they can do little else:

Guardians are overpriced Guardsmen with a 12" range and only one heavy weapon per 10 models and no other special rules.
Dire Avengers are slightly better Guardians with better range but no CC proficiency. You want them shooting things, not storming objectives.
Rangers/Pathfinders are horribly expensive but decent snipers. 2+ cover is great until things get near them and you'll need a lot of them to do any decent shooting.
Jetbikes are alright, but True LoS + flying bases = harder to get cover and again, no CC proficiency at all.

So we have weak troops who can bearly fire across the battlefield standing around on objectives waiting for something to get close or waiting for eventual death from the hands of Deep striking Marines with flamers or something else that ignores the cover they require to even function. You can't run them across the battlefield, you can't even assault them into objectives, and no, I'm not going to use Guardian Storm Squads because they suck. They can't even get grenades any more and they get no power weapons of any kind. Oh sure you can give them flamers and the Warlock destructor, but that means less attacks and no enhance or embolden.

An Eldar player speaks...thank you! The Eldar have plenty that looks good on paper, but as you add up the points and see them in action, you get the reality. The codex is outdated and littered with bad units that have no place outside a fun game.

As for the troops, you are spot on. The Wave Serpent for objective caping purposes is the only thing they can do. The rest are overpriced and underwhelming. I stated before that two min squads of Dire Avengers in WS with Stones and TL Missile launchers is the best the Eldar can do troop wise. After seeing just about every configuration run over the course of a year and a half, I stand by this. The kicker, these squads are STILL 180 points each. So over priced it hurts.

I think what your talking about is a matter of all eldar being generally fragile, but having made up for by special rules that effectively fine tune them... that as the rules have moved on they grow more and more out of tune with viability, as those rules do less and less to balance out fragileness.

aka_mythos wrote:Really when you think about it the Guardian/Kabalite Warrior comparison isn't the best one. Guardians are effectively craftworld militia and not necessarily the standing "military." Kabalite Warriors are the standing "military," that the lesser Dark Eldar are left at home since they've been unable to prove themselves to a house. For those reasons I think a Dire Avenger/Kabalite Warrior comparison is a more meaningful one, since the Dark Eldar equivalent to Guardians aren't present on the battlefield.

As a comparison of fluff, you would be absolutely right. But if Eldar Guardians are just militia, maybe they should not be so expensive compared to Kabalite Warriors...

Here is a thought though. Back when Guardians were made, Fleet was an incredibly useful ability. Now, it is comparitvely weak as everyone can run. The advantage you get is much smaller. The Kabalite Warriors have been priced based on new-Fleet. Guardians were priced based on Old-fleet. Even considering that though, it still seems things are out of whack.

I think what your talking about is a matter of all eldar being generally fragile, but having made up for by special rules that effectively fine tune them... that as the rules have moved on they grow more and more out of tune with viability, as those rules do less and less to balance out fragileness.

I don't think this is a bad way of putting it. I think the real difficulty they face comes in the point cost decreases we have seen in the newer codices. Transports have generally gone down in cost. Rhinos are 35 points, Chimeras 55, and Raiders 60 (a rare increase). While the Wave Serpent is more durable because of energy fields and AV 12 12 10, is it really worth 120 points? The stones are almost essential as loss of mobility equals death to them. The best weapon is the twin linked missile launcher which carries a high price tag and arbitrary BS 3. Want to take a bright lance? Look at the points and tell me that's in any way justified.

Standard troops have dropped thanks to the Ork boy syndrome. The cheap and very viable Ork for 6 points have caused a ripple effect on troop costs. Imperial Guard are cheaper and better. Space Wolf Grey Hunters are a steal. Gaunts are cheaper, better, and poisoned. Even though Kabalite Warriors are now (a whole whopping) point more, they gain power through pain (aka easy FNP). Wytches are cheaper and better as well. The newer the codex, the better and cheaper the troop choices. In a game where you have to take 2 squads of troops 100% of the time and claim objectives with them 66% of the time, having good troops is essential. At their current costs and options, nothing the Eldar can field in that slot is "good".

When you look at some of the worst codices; Daemon Hunters, Necrons, Tau, Eldar, and Witch Hunters, they all share something in common, bad or overpriced choices in the Troop FOC. Witch Hunters have the best stuff there, but compare 10 kitted Sisters in a Rhino to 10 kitted marines in a rhino (they cost about the same) and get back to me. Grey Knights- just bad. Necrons have no options or flexibility and get swept away. It's a sad state of affairs when players have to attempt to hide them in reserve because they are such a liability. Tau have two crappy choices. Not only that, but Devilfish are garbage for an 80+ point transport.

The Eldar codex is not much different and the troop choice is the main (but not only) reason.

Fifty wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Really when you think about it the Guardian/Kabalite Warrior comparison isn't the best one. Guardians are effectively craftworld militia and not necessarily the standing "military." Kabalite Warriors are the standing "military," that the lesser Dark Eldar are left at home since they've been unable to prove themselves to a house. For those reasons I think a Dire Avenger/Kabalite Warrior comparison is a more meaningful one, since the Dark Eldar equivalent to Guardians aren't present on the battlefield.

As a comparison of fluff, you would be absolutely right. But if Eldar Guardians are just militia, maybe they should not be so expensive compared to Kabalite Warriors...

Here is a thought though. Back when Guardians were made, Fleet was an incredibly useful ability. Now, it is comparitvely weak as everyone can run. The advantage you get is much smaller. The Kabalite Warriors have been priced based on new-Fleet. Guardians were priced based on Old-fleet. Even considering that though, it still seems things are out of whack.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Eldar codex is dated. For Guardians, I don't think their rules are whats "wrong" mostly just the point costs. I think at this point Guardians should only be a smidgen over the price of an Imperial Guardsmen... that they should be maybe 6pts a Guardian. I don't think that helps their viability too much, but it does match points to function.

My point was just that what ever DE Warriors should be should be comparable to Dire Avengers more than guardians.

JGrand wrote:

I think what your talking about is a matter of all eldar being generally fragile, but having made up for by special rules that effectively fine tune them... that as the rules have moved on they grow more and more out of tune with viability, as those rules do less and less to balance out fragileness.

I don't think this is a bad way of putting it. I think the real difficulty they face comes in the point cost decreases we have seen in the newer codices. Transports have generally gone down in cost. Rhinos are 35 points, Chimeras 55, and Raiders 60 (a rare increase). While the Wave Serpent is more durable because of energy fields and AV 12 12 10, is it really worth 120 points? The stones are almost essential as loss of mobility equals death to them. The best weapon is the twin linked missile launcher which carries a high price tag and arbitrary BS 3. Want to take a bright lance? Look at the points and tell me that's in any way justified.
...
The Eldar codex is not much different and the troop choice is the main (but not only) reason.

I don't play eldar, I play their dark brethren, but I can see all these things you're talking about to be true. I think point costs established in this codex were established at a precarious time... where inklings of the new edition rules make it in while other lapses such as highers point costs for marginalized rules were still unduly high. The Wave Serpent is overpriced, but it came at a time where the type of save it got was relatively unique and thus seemingly justified the cost at the time.