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meh. If a libby's that old and experienced, he would have picked up a few nifty moves that the codiciers/epistolaries won't know.


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I have made the chief libby- he has a RFW, plasma pistol, artificier armour, bike, master psyker, and, (for the GW coliseum of blades) null zone, might of the ancients and warp summoning. Just need to find some models for spectres...anyone have any ideas for ghost-type people (not necessarily SM)

How about army of the dead from LOTR? The models are kind of small though.

Or perhaps Fantasy wraiths? Check the Undead Armys out.

considering the fantasy vampire counts Cairn wraiths...
some people may think this to be OP, but this is my chief libby for m raven guard:

bike
artificier armour
SS
relic force weapon
master psyker
null zone
might of the ancients
warp summoning
The powers are just for use in an all-IC game in december (colusiem of blades)
so this means:
firing 2 TL bolters with a 3+ inv, 2+ armour striking in CC at S8 (+2S- might of the ancients), I4, 3A, having 3W to soak up, moving 12" with T5, creating up to 6 models which are, in effect, marines with no armour or boltguns, making the opponent re-roll all failed invuls within 24", allowing no armour saves in CC which ID's on a passed psychic test.
but then- it does cost 275 points.

edited rules
I shall buy the spectres for christmas maybe the cairn wraiths.

I think the biggest broken thing in the SM codex is tacticals forgot to bring chainswords as well as bolt pistols. It really dissapoints given they have to be our backbone.

I love this thread. Leaving libby in vehicle and null zoning is a waste of a lot of HQ talent. He has a brilliant CCW, he goes nuts in the fluff (referring to iron snakes and storm of iron here) so to my mind he needs at least a 5++, an iron halop would be better.

Master psycher is great. As I posted earlier, using GoI to move around, keeping avenger and null zone alone is enough for me. Sure charge me more, at the moment I have a 100 pt hood and null zone ability for a few turns but not much more.

I suspect someone really dialled back the libby in the current SM codex to trade off something else like PoMS.

thanks for the support
the libby is now basically tigirius with master psyker, an ivul and no special rules. (so tigirius is 230pts, this guy with tiggy's powers is 200)
my chief libby will have:
relic force weapon
bike
artificier armour
SS
master psyker
most commonly used powers:
null zone
avenger
GoI
warp summoning
fire of purgation
soul unleashed (when I get my CCS on bikes for christmas)

grayspark wrote:perhaps Fantasy wraiths?

I've found 6 (the maximum i'll need) on ebay for 99p. pre-painted badly, but i'll just paint over them.

I've been using him with the Force Relic blade and Artificer armor with my assault squads.

He's really refreshing to use instead of Mephiston.

Really nice to be able to use a Librarian that isn't useless.

Unless there have been changes to the suggestion later in the thread that are not reflected in the original post, this is way too ridiculous.

Surtur wrote:Unless there have been changes to the suggestion later in the thread that are not reflected in the original post, this is way too ridiculous.

how so?

grayspark wrote:
I've been using him with the Force Relic blade and Artificer armor with my assault squads.

He's really refreshing to use instead of Mephiston.

Really nice to be able to use a Librarian that isn't useless.

I know! Haven't used him in a game yet, but he is stamped and I'm going to be playing him in a mega-battle in my LGS next week, and in the national "Coliseum of blades" (one IC/SC per person)
In the mega-battle, he's gonna have null zone, relic force weapon, GoI (or vortex), bike, artificier armour, SS and the avenger.

@greyspark - normal libby is not broken. I use one in my current 1750 list. Sure he has no iron halo 4++ but he has hood, a force weapon and can take some great powers. The force multiplier of null zone with hood means him sitting in a vehicle all game still makes him worth while. Hell people take vulkan just for what he does to flamer, melta and THs.

Im planning on sitting my naked libby in LR with 5 hammernators. In games where there is a choice target, say IG heavy weapons squad, he can assault with 2 base attacks, +1 with pistol for 4 initiative 4 power/force attacks. With 2 wounds and 3+ he is going to win that battle. Also nice to bolster a fist rhino squad.

Finally on the idea of running libby with assault marines, one of the powers gives a 5++, an epistolary with the 5++ and might of ancients or avenger is truely nasty. I would say might given it means even LR will go down to him and with the invul the opponent will need to take the unit down in H2H. Sure you miss null zone but as an assaulty unit its massively bolstered. Throw 2 flamers and a fist in there. Ouch.

grayspark wrote:
Really nice to be able to use a Librarian that isn't useless.

Unleash Rage is the sexiest thing for psykers since Lash of Submission.
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Why does this Chief Librarian have one an extra wound, an extra attack, and an invulnerable save over the Chief Libby in the book? If you actually wanted to make a balanced method of fielding the master of the librarians for any chapter, wouldn't you want to stick to the closest thing in the book? As it is, this guy smacks of using the fluff to justify making some absurd CC powerhouse.

Ok, so I can have a Libby casting NullZone and giving my TH&SS termies +1A for the cost of 150pts, on top of this he provides NullZone and now has 6 attacks on the charge and hits MEQs on +3 just like a captain,all this while providing a hood...

Or pay 20 pts more and have 5 str 6 that can ID?

And I can have this at I10?

Seems a tad bit OP. Libbys are not ment to be massive CC monsters.

My libby is for my use, and if anyone else wants to use it, you are welcome. remember- the chief libby is the same as tiggy for 200pts. 30 points less for none of the special rules.
look at it from tiggy's perspective- he can have 3 S6 I10 CC attacks that ignore armour, you must re-roll successful invulnerables and has those special rules. That seems broken, doesn't it? But in-game, he's kinda meh.

shrike wrote:My libby is for my use, and if anyone else wants to use it, you are welcome. remember- the chief libby is the same as tiggy for 200pts. 30 points less for none of the special rules.
look at it from tiggy's perspective- he can have 3 S6 I10 CC attacks that ignore armour, you must re-roll successful invulnerables and has those special rules. That seems broken, doesn't it? But in-game, he's kinda meh.

Why does this Chief Librarian have one an extra wound, an extra attack, and an invulnerable save over the Chief Libby in the book?

no extra wounds or attacks IIRC. Invul, yes. Tiggy is useless in CC. he just gets ID'd by a lascannon. The only other way he can do it is by having ET. invul is fairer IMO.

Tiggy only has 2 wounds and 2 attacks. Maybe librarians were never meant to be CC powerhouses? Lascannons don't hit people hiding in squads. ET? You mean Eternal Warrior? Fairer for who? The guy who wants to add a CC powerhouse to Codex: Space Marines?
---
What's your justification for giving Space Marines the abilities to summon ghosts/daemons from the warp?

your avatar comes into play here
anway- It isn't a CC powerhouse, my point is, to make libbies worthwhile, we need to either make them have an invul. or an ET, and a 4++is fairer than ET.
I have stated my point.

Librarians are more the worthwhile. Out of the Captain, the Chaplain, and the Librarian, the Libby is probably the best of the three in terms of utility and cost. He can make the enemy reroll invulnerables, give him and his squad an invulnerable save, teleport his squad across the table, and heavily complement his squad's short range shooting.

Why does the Librarian need an invulnerable save? He can already get one via Force Dome and when does he really need one? Against shooting the squad can take the lascannon shots and cover can mitigate. In close combat, the librarian shouldn't be trying to take out other armies close combat monsters, and avoiding the hidden powerfist or power weapon is easy.

If you aren't trying to make a CC powerhouse, why give your guy an extra attack and wound?
Why does your libby summon daemons?

1) Sorry, but "you can cast an invul?"
a) it's 5+, you would have thought, since the chief librarian is of higher rank than a captain, that he should be offered some protection equal to/more than a captain.
b) that takes up one of the two psychic powers. So a libby can only cast that power per turn.
c) he does "really need one".

2) he doesn't summon daemons, he summons spectres from the warp.

3) "he can make the enemy re-roll invulnerables, teleport across the battlefield, use shooty powers, give his squad an invul"? he can do TWO. ONE per turn. Not 4. even tiggy can't do 4.

4) they do hit people hiding in squads if the squad is destoryed (a pretty easy feat if not with expensive units)
b) It's not that easy to avoid power weapons. I don't have a single unit that doesn't pack a power weapon of some kind.

5) powerhouse? That's what you call tigirius with an invul.? powerhouse?

shrike wrote:1) Sorry, but "you can cast an invul?"
a) it's 5+, you would have thought, since the chief librarian is of higher rank than a captain, that he should be offered some protection equal to/more than a captain.
b) that takes up one of the two psychic powers. So a libby can only cast that power per turn.
c) he does "really need one".

a)The MotF lacks an invuln, and he's higher rank than a captain (sort of, they are on different rank tracks).
b) Or a second power. It does use require the use of a psychic power, but that's because the librarian has to be balanced.
c)Why? Because you want to him to really hard? You still haven't explained why it's necessary.

shrike wrote:2) he doesn't summon daemons, he summons spectres from the warp.

Specters? Are those like daemons? Or are they human spirits (hint, human's lack the mental power necessary to maintain their "soul" upon death)?

shrike wrote:3) "he can make the enemy re-roll invulnerables, teleport across the battlefield, use shooty powers, give his squad an invul"? he can do TWO. ONE per turn. Not 4. even tiggy can't do 4.

He can do two if he really wants to. Regardless, he's still damn useful with only one power a turn. Remember, he gives your army protection against psychic powers, he adds a bit of CC punch to a squad, he can ID multi-wound creatues, and he can do all sorts of nifty things with his powers. He does all that for 100 points. For what he is (a cheap and cheerful support HQ), he's awesome.

shrike wrote:4) they do hit people hiding in squads if the squad is destoryed (a pretty easy feat if not with expensive units)
b) It's not that easy to avoid power weapons. I don't have a single unit that doesn't pack a power weapon of some kind.

If the whole squad gets killed, lack of an invuln is the least of your problems. When you charge, you can easily lock the power weapon in CC with basic marines and stickthe libby a few inches away. It's more difficult when charged, but you can still try to run from the power weapon when you get to move the libby into CC. Of course, the fact that the librarian has a weakness is a good thing. Did I mention just how awesome he is for 100 points?

shrike wrote:5) powerhouse? That's what you call tigirius with an invul.? powerhouse?

Tiggy with an invuln, an extra wound, an extra attack, and a S6 Power Weapon. It still doesn't really stack up to the Thunderlord, but it's better than anything else in C:SM excepting some of the SC's.

rustyknight wrote:

shrike wrote:1) Sorry, but "you can cast an invul?"
a) it's 5+, you would have thought, since the chief librarian is of higher rank than a captain, that he should be offered some protection equal to/more than a captain.
b) that takes up one of the two psychic powers. So a libby can only cast that power per turn.
c) he does "really need one".

a)The MotF lacks an invuln, and he's higher rank than a captain (sort of, they are on different rank tracks).

the MotF should have one too.

rustyknight wrote:b) Or a second power. It does use require the use of a psychic power, but that's because the librarian has to be balanced.

with a 50-point epistolary upgrade.

rustyknight wrote:c)Why? Because you want to him to be really hard? You still haven't explained why it's necessary.

To stop them getting killed by 25-point weapons.

shrike wrote:2) he doesn't summon daemons, he summons spectres from the warp.

rustyknight wrote:Specters? Are those like daemons? Or are they human spirits (hint, human's lack the mental power necessary to maintain their "soul" upon death)?

they are not maintaining thier soul, the chief libby is (and even he can only keep them there for a turn, with an increased likelihood of PotW)

shrike wrote:3) "he can make the enemy re-roll invulnerables, teleport across the battlefield, use shooty powers, give his squad an invul"? he can do TWO. ONE per turn. Not 4. even tiggy can't do 4.

rustyknight wrote:He can do two if he really wants to. Regardless, he's still damn useful with only one power a turn. Remember, he gives your army protection against psychic powers, he adds a bit of CC punch to a squad, he can ID multi-wound creatues, and he can do all sorts of nifty things with his powers. He does all that for 100 points. For what he is (a cheap and cheerful support HQ), he's awesome. again, that's for a 50-point upgrade.

shrike wrote:4) they do hit people hiding in squads if the squad is destoryed (a pretty easy feat if not with expensive units)
b) It's not that easy to avoid power weapons. I don't have a single unit that doesn't pack a power weapon of some kind.

rustyknight wrote:If the whole squad gets killed, lack of an invuln is the least of your problems. When you charge, you can easily lock the power weapon in CC with basic marines and stickthe libby a few inches away. It's more difficult when charged, but you can still try to run from the power weapon when you get to move the libby into CC. Of course, the fact that the librarian has a weakness is a good thing. Did I mention just how awesome he is for 100 points?

shrike wrote:5) powerhouse? That's what you call tigirius with an invul.? powerhouse?

Tiggy with an invuln, an extra wound, an extra attack, and a S6 Power Weapon. It still doesn't really stack up to the Thunderlord, but it's better than anything else in C:SM excepting some of the SC's.

shrike wrote:the MotF should have one too.

Why? The MotF is a support character. He fixes tanks or shoots things with a laser. Going mano-a-mano with Lucius the Eternal isn't the MotF's m.o.

shrike wrote:with a 50-point epistolary upgrade.

Yes, which is how much GW thought it should cost. If you want extra abilities you have to pay for them.

shrike wrote:To stop them getting killed by 25-point weapons.

Isn't this an argument I already adressed? checks Yep, but you didn't really adress that point.

shrike wrote:they are not maintaining thier soul, the chief libby is (and even he can only keep them there for a turn, with an increased likelihood of PotW)

So, because humans can't keep the souls together when they die, your solution is to have one human keep six souls together? Souls that he yanked from nowhere? Souls that may or may not be fighters? You should drop this power.

shrike wrote:he doesn't have a S6 power weapon standard. And all the stuff the chief libby can do is for a very expensive points cost. (230pts).

If we're comparing this guy to Tiggy, I'd just assume treat the Relic Force Weapon as standard so that the two equal in cost.

Why are you ignoring the fact that your character has more wounds and attacks than normal librarians?

RustyKnight wrote:

shrike wrote:the MotF should have one too.

Why? The MotF is a support character. He fixes tanks or shoots things with a laser. Going mano-a-mano with Lucius the Eternal isn't the MotF's m.o.

shrike wrote:with a 50-point epistolary upgrade.

Yes, which is how much GW thought it should cost. If you want extra abilities you have to pay for them.

shrike wrote:To stop them getting killed by 25-point weapons.

Isn't this an argument I already adressed? checks Yep, but you didn't really adress that point.

shrike wrote:they are not maintaining thier soul, the chief libby is (and even he can only keep them there for a turn, with an increased likelihood of PotW)

So, because humans can't keep the souls together when they die, your solution is to have one human keep six souls together? Souls that he yanked from nowhere? Souls that may or may not be fighters? You should drop this power.

shrike wrote:he doesn't have a S6 power weapon standard. And all the stuff the chief libby can do is for a very expensive points cost. (230pts).

If we're comparing this guy to Tiggy, I'd just assume treat the Relic Force Weapon as standard so that the two equal in cost.

Why are you ignoring the fact that your character has more wounds and attacks than normal librarians?

A MotF is the owner of arcane technology, keeper of the rarest and most powerful weaponry in the chapter. He should be able to get hold of an iron halo.
I have a 50pt upgrade in there.
If chief libby tiggy can to stuff like form a giant wave out of white-hot fire, anticipate xenos hive fleets, waaghs, and whatever else, kill greater daemons with ease, and keep marneus clager alive for 200 years, he should be able to summon a few spectres for a turn. he is not a human, he is a SM. They are the spectres of old chapter heroes, not any old human.
since chief libbies are normally as old as the chapter masters, you would have thought after centuries of fighting he would have:
a) picked up a few nifty moves regular libbies won't know
b) become more used to war, at least up to the point of having more resilience.

So, from a game design perspective, why give the MotF an Iron Halo?

Your fifty point upgrade adds a ton of weapon options, a wound, an attack, new powers, more powers available, AND allows two per turn. This guy lack any balance whatsoever to the existing librarian stats.

The souls of dead space marine heros will have long since dissipated into the empyrean. Only Eldar have the mental strength necessary to keep their souls intact. The fluff just doesn't support Space Marine necromancy.

The MotF will also have centuries of warfare, yet he doesn't have an extra attack or wound. The Chapter Master will usually have centuries more experience than the younger captains, yet he lacks an extra attack or wound. Tigurius doesn't have the extra attack or wound, and he's the closest thing to a generic master librarian. Your guy shouldn't have an extra attack or wound.

I already mentioned why the MotF should have one. and this isn't about them.
actually, it's 200pts for 3 powers a turn (like tiggy) knows all the powers (like tiggy)
has actually the same amount of weapon options, just different ones
heroes won't be around? what about LotD?
A libby should have an extra wound. To stave your appetite for whining, I shall remove the +1A.

Hmm....summoning warp "shadows" sounds like sorcery, heresy and daemon worship to me! PURGE THIS THREAD!
*cough* I don't think the Chief specific powers are needed, they may the best librarian around in the chapter, but they still got the same training they are just better. Also they should not be as strong as Tigerius, since he is said to be the most powerful psyker in the Imperium(unless they changed that part).
I like the idea of the Relic Force Staff/Sword though.

Iratus Custodis wrote:Hmm....summoning warp "shadows" sounds like sorcery, heresy and daemon worship to me! PURGE THIS THREAD!
*cough* I don't think the Chief specific powers are needed, they may the best librarian around in the chapter, but they still got the same training they are just better. Also they should not be as strong as Tigerius, since he is said to be the most powerful psyker in the Imperium(unless they changed that part).
I like the idea of the Relic Force Staff/Sword though.

IIRC they kept that.

Because ultrasmirfs are the best at everything

stealth? no. RG have that.
attrition? no. CF have that.
defence? no. IF.
siege? no. IW.
they are the all-rounders- can do everything but best at nothing. Tiggy is terrible for his points. He should at least be an ET.

You gave a fluff reason(a poor fluff one at that as the Iron Halo is a reward for courage, not just a piece of wargear) not a design reason. The MotF is an example of how your ideas just don't fit the codex, so the MotF is rather relevant.

I was comparing this guy to a base librarian, but let's go ahead and compare Tiggy to this guy. This guy has options (something that Tiggy lacks), new powers, and an extra wounds Tiggy costs 30 more points and lets you reroll reserves.

LotD may or may not be alive or dead. They might not even be marines. There is no fluff justification for librarian necromancers.

The only reason this guy doesn't have more weapon options is you arbitrarily (random is bad) cutting out combi-weapons and the stormbolter for non-termies. It's kinda obvious what's going on when you only put in the options that you yourself wanted to take.

You still haven't justified the extra wound. You just keep saying "he's experienced so he's tougher" then ignoring the replies.