Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't have the Codex: Dark Eldar, but aren't their warriors supposed to be the fighting core of their army? And Wyches, naturally, but since they're melee it's not the same boat.

My answer to the Defender Guardians problem is to get them 24" rapid fire, 18" Assault 1 or 12" assault 2 weapons. I personally like the rapid fire option.

They really should have BS3, except the platform which should be BS4. Maybe it has a targeting lock that improves the aim? Or something of that sort. BS3 heavy weapon platform just doesn't work, even if there are more than one in the squad. And they should be limited to 10 per squad with 2 mandatory platforms per 5 models. Shuriken cannons should be the default weapon. Other options should then be offered for the cost of the weapon - the cost of the Shuricannon. So Scatterlasers would cost 5 points, EML 10, etc...

A warlock as a squad leader should have the option to give them defensive grenades for +1 points per model, or something similar and of course his chosen power. And improved LD profile, for heaven's sake!

People that want 18" assault 2 weapons with the same profile as avenger shuriken catapult, then give them weapon platforms on top of that, +1BS, etc...are heading down a wrong way with them, I think. They shouldn't be a spearheading squad like the Avengers, they should provide cover fire and long-range support, defending a home objective.

Araenion wrote:Pulse Lasers should really stay Falcons-only..

Agreed (and Hornets). Make them Lances and leave them on the vehicles.

It's not like Tac Marines carry Assault Cannons.

Araenion wrote:I don't have the Codex: Dark Eldar, but aren't their warriors supposed to be the fighting core of their army? And Wyches, naturally, but since they're melee it's not the same boat.

My answer to the Defender Guardians problem is to get them 24" rapid fire, 18" Assault 1 or 12" assault 2 weapons. I personally like the rapid fire option.

Yeah, Kabalite warriors are meant to be the fighting core of the army. Regardless of that, Warriors shouldn't be better than guardians when their the same point cost.

Rapid fire is unprecidented for eldar, but I agree that it would fit the defender guardians role quite well. Their tech is ment to have advanced so that you can fire at full capacity regardless of what your doing, so a fluffier solution could be having 2 firing modes. 12" assault 2 or 18/24" assault 1 maybe?

Just for the hell of it (and no, I'm not really serious):
Shuriken Catapult. R24" S4 Ap5 Assault 4, dispersed
Dispersed: The Catapult's salvo is inaccurate and rapidly loses accuracy over range, as such it will automatically miss one shot per full 6" increment (firing on a target 14" away, the weapon would automatically miss 2 of 4 shots).

Mahtamori wrote:Just for the hell of it (and no, I'm not really serious):
Shuriken Catapult. R24" S4 Ap5 Assault 4, dispersed
Dispersed: The Catapult's salvo is inaccurate and rapidly loses accuracy over range, as such it will automatically miss one shot per full 6" increment (firing on a target 14" away, the weapon would automatically miss 2 of 4 shots).

Hmm it is quite effortless to fire and eldar do live a long time. I will vote
for
Shuriken Catapult. R32" (2nd Ed) S4 AP5 Large Blast.

Now that that's settled, time to come up with a reason to field anything other than a guardian...

DAaddict wrote:Shuriken Catapult. R32" (2nd Ed) S4 AP5 Large Blast.

Now that that's settled, time to come up with a reason to field anything other than a guardian...

WTF?! please tell me your not being serious.

OMG. Of course not. I acknowleged they need more range and proposed rapid fire catapults. After being flamed for that, I just thought I would join OPA.(overpowered anonymous) Improve guardians? Yes.
Just keep the options logical so that there remains reason to field dire avengers and the like.

Where is the flaming?! I'm confused.....

DA's still have better armour WS and BS, plus the exarch powers. Although I agree that for 12 points compaired to these guardians at 8 points, I wouldn't say DA's are 50% better. The problem is, when looking at the comparison of capability vs points with the 5th Ed DE codex, Avengers are over priced.

I stand by what I said. Guardian Defenders themselves are at odds with the rest of the Eldar codex. I see no issues with them having rapid fire weapons. But then again I am a huge believer in clear purpose units, so flimsy heavy weapon teams that can't assault a fly without getting their asses kicked having short-ranged assault weapons is contra-productive to their purpose. It feels like they almost want us to assault with them.

True, setting them up as a "sit back and shoot" unit seems to be most logical. They'd then have a similar role to pathfinders, just swapping pinning and awesome cover saves for heavy weapons and more shots up close. That would leave us DA's and Storm guardians as the "get stuck in" troops and jetbikes as the super quick support/objective snatchers.

I dislike Rapid Fire simply because the Dire Avenger Catapult isn't all that different.
I can easily see Rapid Fire work for them, but then I'd also like to see Dire Avengers get some form of Hot Shot Catapult to maybe further set them apart.

On the other hand, if catapults were natively 3-shot, but kept their range, the Guardians would be high-risk-high-reward.
(Sort of the same reason I would personally prefer to leave poison vulnerability on Wraiths - you've got to have something your opponent can capitalize on)

This would naturally lead to Blade Storm being obsolete, and in need of a reform. Of course, it doesn't fix the problem that Shuriken Catapults are incompatible with heavy weapons in general.

Eldar weaponry should be assalt. The fastness and fluff of eldar would be compromised by anything else. How about simply making the basic catapult 18" range and the avenger catapult be 24" range?

Because 24" assault 2 woud completely outclass a bolter....and you know that would never be allowed to happen

It SHOULD outclass a bolter. Fluff wise the eldar are far more technologically advanced. The DA are worse in every other way than SMs.

Except initiative and fleet
But yes they should be better. I'd rather see them with assault 3 18" but that doesnt seem very appropriate for troops

Assault 24" weapons are not reasonable for a troop choice. I must say I don't understand the mentality of people that want to feel special and thus make chaos in the army profile...because since Eldar can't have rapid fire weapons due to fluff and can't have assault 12" catapults because that's unplayable, they must have assault 18" catapults but that makes Avengers too weak so we must make their catapults to 24" and and and...why not just go the simple and effective road, when it's already laid out in front of us?

The fact is that rapid fire weapons function very differently than assault weapons and Dire Avengers are safe within their own niche as the assault troopers and vanguard of the Eldar and Defenders have their own role too.

What I like:

Rending Shurikens:
The origional concept of the shuriken cataput was in every way superior to the bolter, including its ability to cut through armor, equal range and STR, and the ability to fire on the run. Rend brings it back to that, but the simplification of newer rules with an AP instead of a SAVE MOD left it on the sideline. Rend brings it back and makes up for the reduced range (kind of).

Better Phoenix Lords and Avatar:
everybody knows the PL are overpriced jokes taken only by confident players expecting 'friendly', not 'competitive' games against other equally non points efficient armies. I have no problem with their cost if they didn't die so easy. The Avatar is a pretty damn weak God of War as it is, and should be way more scary, harder to kill, and in general, inspiring as an army centerpiece/anchor, even if it costs twice as much.

Warlocks should be purchased like a marine command squad (as they are) and assigned like wolfguard and to any squad, not bought separately for guardians or wraithguard and ignored by aspects. In codex fluff, they are all ex-aspect warriors, so should be perfectly familiar with working with an aspect. As advisors to the farseer, they should have no problem working with strange things like harlequins and wraithguard either.

WHAT I DON'T LIKE:
psychic checks for exarch powers or warlock. Powers that affect the individual exarch are often just exceptional skills (fast shot and crack shot being obvious ones). Squad-affecting ones like skyleap, bladestorm, tankhunters etc reflect a tactical maneuver that a squad has been trained in and practiced in by their exarch, who excelled in such a tactic - not a magical boon like a farseer's blessing.
As far as the warlocks go, I can kind of see it making sense for destructor, but I'll give that up when chaos deamons have to give up their flamers of tzeentch to the same roll. Warlocks with destructor exude violent psyke energy when they put on that helm and go through the aspect ritual before a battle, it isnt a conscious choice like a farseer makes as to which strand of fate is being scryed, they become their psychic power just as an aspect warrior becomes his aspect the moment the armor goes on. Fluff aside, it also adds a big imbalance to points with the risk involved in such a drastic change.

Just my thoughts on game balance:

Squad-affecting powers like veil, bladestorm, stalker, tankhunters, skyleap, etc should be contingent on the number in the squad. A base cost for the exarch/shadowseer/warlock for being there in the first place then a second cost 'per-model'. Think like this: shadowseer:10 points + 2 points per model for veil of tears, and so on. This would change nothing in squad points cost from the current, but could allow players to experiment with smaller squads and peculiar uses for overlooked things by feeling short-changed by not using full squads while paying full points for the upgrade. Marines get a free weapon for having 10 guys, so most of them use, points allowing, 10 guys (plus they can split). We get a very pricey power that affects a squad of 5 the same as a squad of 10, so we field a squad of 10 so as to get maximum use of our squad-wide ability. That's why Death Jesters get no love. If a veiled harlequin squad of 5 without kisses was viable in points-crunching, the Death-Jester might be used a bit more. On the downside, it wouldn't allow for hiding special characters in there (which never made sense, but hey we exploit it if we can - fluff be damned when we have to compete against codex creep). This kind of reassignment of points would help an Eldar player feel comfortable using squads of different sizes, instead of the competative standard of how-many-can-fit-in-a-transport-and all-benefit-from-one-power. way of army building.

It's like marines in reverse. We PAY for a power so feel obligated to fill out the squad as much as possible in order for it to be a viable points expense for each guy we buy. Marines/grey hunters/ etc pay for their models and get a FREE boost for filling out their squad, so feel obligated to get more of the same guy so they can get the same guy plus a missile launcher. The marine model without a missile launcher in the squad of 9 is still a marine guy. The dire avenger guy without the bladestorm in his squad is not.

I feel like rapid fire is a really bad solution to the guardian issue. It gives them weapons that are identical to bolters, and makes them very very slightly better at shooting.

I still feel like (and this is carried over from the MkI thread) that S3 ap5 R24 Assault 2 is the way to go. Thats a weapon profile that makes me laugh with disgust on a 21 pt swooping hawk, but i feel it is quite appropriate on a 8 pt guardian. It is supporting fire, made only effective by Doom.

If you price it out (at current heavy weapon prices and with 1 profile per 5 guardians), thats 110 pts for 10 guardians and two scatter lasers, each shooting phase, they get 16 BS3 S3 Ap5 shots at 24" and 8 BS 3 S6 Ap6 shots at 36". Thats decent firepower, but it has essentially no AP, low BS, and its on a unit with 5+ armor that will go away if someone looks at them wrong. I think it's fair. If they can get star cannons at a reasonable price, its a decent AT unit. which will take some AT weight off the heavy and elite slots.

PLs: 4++ across the board. 3++ for Asurmen. Asurmen gives all DAs stubborn, other PLs make all aspects scoring (perhaps just one unit).


Also, with regard to the idea that 24" assault weapons aren't reasonable for a troops choice, PAGK get them. At 25 points they have a S4 AP5 R24 Assault 2 weapon, T4, 3+, a S6 CC weapon, and other goodies. The game will not end if DAs get 24" weapons.

edited, the proposed weapon profile for guardians above was supposed to be S3 AP5 Assault 2 R24"... fixed now.

Tweaking the weapon profile seems like a strange way to address the issue with a unit. To me, the Guardian and the Dire Avengers are an intriguing matter because they seem to do the same things, but one is obviously better. The solution may be in finding a new role for one of them and in that, I would suggest that the Guardians should be tasked with the role of delaying and misdirecting enemies and the Avengers should be the counterattack. The Eldar seem to be a giant exercise in the importance of combined arms tactics, thanks to all of its units specializing, and having a legitimate strategy, and fudging with the weapons seems to take away from that, as it seems like all of the discussion is about "how do we make it viable for the Guardians and the Avengers to sit in just one place and shoot?" I think the answer may lie in allowing for the Guardians to act like a picket, with fleet and, to make use of a special rule that can let them move again during the assault phase, so they can "light calvary" back d6 inches after delivering a volley of fire, along with the ability to infiltrate, so they can forward deploy and act like the false front of a defense in depth or counterattack. They can be just as weak as they are now, just as cheap, and if they need to be "sweetened" perhaps allow for the chance to them to be influenced by each Aspect Warriors' Shrine by gaining a special ability they can choose to use from any Exarchs that are within, say, six inches of the unit, whether it is the ability to fire in unison, and thus to make use of Bladestorm, from a Dire Avenger Exarch, being able to light-calv six inches when near a Warp Spider exarch, to dangerous and seemingly odd abilities that affect attack or strength from either Exarchs of the Howling Banshees or Striking Scorpions. The Guardians could, and I think should, be the distillation of the Eldar to "be like water" by having a ability to dull the enemy's alphastrike capacity or to harry, and then to augment whatever strategy is being used once the rest of the Eldar form up, so they can have both a role dictated by their set-up and have use once the real fight starts, no matter how you like fighting, to escape being "the Dire Avengers when you're too cheap to get actual Dire Avengers" and, also, to escape this cycle built around the shuriken cannon arms race.

I agree with those who say rapid fire is bad. Eldar are a fast army and a technologically advanced to be able to make their guns fire at full capacity whether they've moved or not. Maybe a standard shruiken catapault shouldn't out class a bolter, but the DA catapaults should, eldar are a more technologically advanced race so they'd be able to make better weapons and DAs are elite shooting aspect warriors, so it seems right. Or maybe the way to set the two types or catapaults apart is a AP decrease as well?

The way we differentiated the guardians and DAs in the MkI thread was to make the DAs a mechanized generalist anti infantry unit, and to make the guardians a non-mechanized fire support unit.

Guardians have S3 Ap5 R24 A2 weapons, 1 plat per 5 guardians, 5-10 squad size. Platforms are required, and a unit with a platform cannot embark on a transport.

DAs have S4 AP4 R18 A2 weapons, ccw, shuripistols. Stubborn and shimmershield make them a better tarpit than they are now. If they need to be better at shooting, give them A3 and remove bladestorm or give them rending.

There is little crossover in their roles in that framework.

I believe that due to the way Storm Guardians do not work in melee, Storm Guardians need to be merged into Defender Guardians simply because Storm Guardians do not work (currently their best function is tripple-flamer, and not get into melee)

In other words, I think Guardians are the unit best off with triplet weapons (cata+pist+ccw)

For Dire Avengers it'd be interesting exploring having them use their catapults in melee.

I Bring Answers or possibly more Questions

Craftworld Eldar 5th Edition Codex

Army Wide Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Exarch Powers: Hasnt changed
Doomed: The Eldar race is a almost extinct race, and all the living Eldar know that, they will fight on, untill they die.All eldar have the Stubborn Special Rule.

Forces of the Craftworld:

Autarch: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
6 6 3 3 6 3 3 10 3+ (4++)

Special Rules:
Master Strategist-+1 on reserve rolls
Doomed
Fleet of Foot
Independent Character

Wargear:
Shuriken Pistol
Close Combat Weapon
Forceshield

Farseer: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
5 5 3 3 5 3 2 10 --- (4++)

Speical Rules:
Independent Character
Psyker
Fleet of Foot
Doomed

Wargear:
Shuriken Pistol
Witchblade
Ghosthelm
Runes of Warding
Runes of Witnessing
Spirit Stones

Warlock: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
5 4 3 3 5 1 1 9 --- (4++)

Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed

Wargear:
Shuriken Pistol
Witchblade


Psychic Powers:
(Farseer)
Guide: A unit within 6” of the Farseer may reroll all failed roll to hits (including Close Combat) unril the next turn
Note: Vehicles can be Guided too

Fortune: A unit within 6” of the Farseer may reroll all faild saves of anykind until the next turn
Note: Vehicles can be Fortuned too

Doom: A enemy unit within 24” of the Farseer may be doomed by the Farseer, any friendly unit may reroll to wound against this enemy unit

Eldritch Storm: Psychic Shooting Attack:
Range: 18” Strength:4 AP:6 Large blast,pinning,rending, on vehicles 2d6 armour penetration, hit on side armour. Special rule: keep the large blast marker on the table, on the next player turn, any units wishing to deep strike within 18” of the Eldritch Storm marker, takes 1d6 hits.

Mind War: Any model within 12” of the Farseer may be the target of mind war, no LoS is needed, both models add 1d6 to their leadership. If the Farseer scores higher than the opponents model, then it takes that many wounds it lost by, with no saves allowed.

Warp Lightning: Psychic Shooting Attack
Range: 12” Strength:6 AP:2 assault D6, only Invulnerable saves may be taken.

Forsee: Any enemy unit within 24” of the Farseer can be targeted, does not require LoS, if that unit wishes to shoot at a Friendly model on its turn, then it must reroll all passed rolls to hit. If the unit has twin linked weapons, it looses the twin linked rule instead of rerolling all passed rolls to hit.

Warlock: Note: the warlocks dont need to roll for a psychic test when using these psychic powers:
Destructor: Psychic Shooting
Range: Template Strength:5 AP4 Assault 1

Enhance: If the warlock is with a unit and has this power, the unit gains +1 to its WS and initiative.

Embolden: If the warlock is with a unit and has this power, the unit may reroll all failed morale/pinning tests.

Conceal: If the warlock is with a unit and has this power the unit gets the Stealth special rule, and if it is in the open, it gains a 5+ cover save (this save cannot be improved with the Stealth Universal Special Rule)

Warp Shield: If the Warlock is with a unit and has this power, it gains a 5+ inv save.


The Avatar of Khaine: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
10 6 6 6 6 4 4 10 3+ (4++)

Special Rules:
Monstrous Creature
Daemon (4++)
Molten Body (any Flamers,heavy flamers,hand-flamers,infernus pistols,flamestorm cannons, Inferno cannons, meltaguns, Multi-Meltas, Heat lances, combi-flamer or combi-meltas cannot wound the Avatar)
Fearless
Inspiring (any unit within 12” counts as being fearless)

Wargear:
The Wailing Doom-Range 12” Strength:8 AP:1 melta

Defender Guardians: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
3 4 3 3 5 1 1 8 5+
Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed
Heavy Weapons Platform: The Heavy weapon on the platform counts as an assault weapon.

Wargear:
Shuriken Catapult

Storm Guardians: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
4 3 3 3 5 1 1 8 5+
Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed

Wargear:
Shuriken Pistol
Close Combat Weapon
Plasma Grenades

Rangers: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
3 4 3 3 5 1 1 9 5+
Pathfinders: 3 4 3 3 5 1 1 9 5+
Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed
Stealth (2+ for Pathfinders)
Move Through Cover (Pathfinders
Infiltrate

Wargear:
Eldar Long Rifle (Sniper) (5 or 6 is a rending shot for Pathfinders and counts as AP1)


Guardian Jetbikes: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
3 3 3 3 5 1 1 8 3+
(4)
Special Rules:
Doomed

Wargear:
Jetbike (+1 Toughness, 3+ save, twin-linked Shuriken Catapult)

Exarch: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
5 5 3 3 6 1 2 9 3+
Special Rules:
Same rules as Aspect.

Wargear:
Shuriken Pistol
Close Combat Weapon

Dire Avengers: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
4 4 3 3 5 1 1 9 4+
Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed

Wargear:
Avenger Shuriken Catapult
2 Close Combat Weapons

Exarch Powers:
Bladestorm (Hasnt Changed)
Defend (Hasnt Changed)

Striking Scorpions: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
5 4 3 3 5 1 1 9 3+
Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed

Wargear:
Mandiblasters (+1 attack)
Scorpion Chainsword (+1 Strength)
Shuriken Pistol

Exarch Powers:
Shadowstrike (The unit gains the Infiltrate special rule)
Stalker (The unit gains the move through cover special rule, and the Stealth special rule)


Fire Dragons: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
4 4 3 3 5 1 1 9 4+
Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed

Wargear:
Fusion Gun
2 Close Combat Weapons
Melta bombs

Exarch Powers:
Crack Shot (Hasnt changed)
Tank Hunters (Hasnt Changed)

Wraithguard: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
5 4 5 6 5 1 2 10 3+
Special Rules:
Wraithsight: (Hasnt Changed)
Fearless
Posion Immume (Poision weapons wound on a 6+)

Wargear:
Wraithcannon (Hasnt Changed, no cover saves allowed)

Howling Banshees: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
5 4 3 3 6 1 1 9 4+
Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed

Wargear:
Banshee Mask (Hasnt Changed)
Shuriken Pistol
Power Sword

Exarch Powers:
War Shout (Enemies Leadership reduced by 2, enemy units in assault with the Banshees must take a Leadership test, or be WS1 for the rest of the assault phase. Can only be used when assaulting.)
Acrobatics (Unit gains Counter Attack Universal Special Rule and Move through cover, and rolls 3d6, pick the highest for running moves)

Harlequin Troupe: Hasnt Changed.

Shining Spears: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
4 4 3 3 5 1 1 9 3+
(4)
Special Rules:
Doomed
Skilled Rider

Wargear:
Laser Lance (Range: 12” Strength: 6 ap:4 Assault 1,lance counts as str6 power weapon in Close combat
Jetbike
Close Combat Weapon

Exarch Powers:
Withdraw (Hasnt Changed)
Furious Onslaught (all enemy units that the shining spears passed over in there movement phase, take a
Str6 power weapon hit that hits on a 4+, for each shining spear in the Squad, this cannot be done in the subseqeunt turn(like bladestorm)

Warp Spiders: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
4 4 3 3 5 1 2 9 3+
Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed
Skilled Rider
Deep Strike

Wargear:
Deathspinner
Warp Jump Generator (hasnt Changed)

Exarch Powers:
Withdraw (hasnt Changed)
Surprise assault (When deepstriking, the unit only scatters d6” and in the shooting phase, the weapons count as pinning in the same turn the warp spiders used their deep strike ability)

Swooping Hawks: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
4 4 3 3 5 1 1 9 4+
Special Rules:
Flying (The unit gains a 4+ cover save)
Fleet of Foot
Doomed
Skilled Rider

Wargear:
Lasblaster
2 Close Combat Weapons
Haywire Grenades (same as before)
Swooping Hawk Jump Pack
Exarch Powers:
Skyleap (Gains a 3+ cover instead of a 4+, flamers cannot hit the unit as they are flying too high up,when the squad Deep strikes, they may assualt on the same turn.)
Intercept (doesnt hit worse then a 4+ against vehicles)

Crystal Dragons: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
5 4 3 3 6 1 2 9 3+
Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed
Scout
Stealth
Assainator (May reroll to wound and to hits against IC's and MC's

Wargear:
Crystal Combat Weapon (Rending)
Close Combat Weapon
Crystal Carbine (Can Target any model in the unit. First roll to hit, each other Carbine shot that hits, the weapon gains +1 Strength, may combine any number of Carbines, the unit may shoot at any number of models)

Exarch Powers:
Withdraw (Hasnt Changed)
Acrobatics (Hasnt Changed see: Howling Banshees Entry)

Dark Reapers: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
4 5 3 3 5 1 2 9 3+
Special Rules:
Fleet of Foot
Doomed
Slow and Purposeful
Wargear:
Reaper Launcher (Hasnt changed)

Exarch Powers:
Crack Shot (Hasnt Changed)
Fast Shot ( Hasnt Changed)





Support Weapon Battery (Hasnt Changed, Guardians are BS4)

Wraithlord: WS BS S T I W A Ld Sv
5 4 10 8 5 3 3 10 3+
Special Rules:
Fearless
Monstrous Creature
Posion Immunity (Posion weapons wound on a 6+)

Wargear:
Wriathsword (Hasnt Changed)
Flamers (Havent Changed)
Shuriken Catapults (Havent Changed)

Wave Serpent: (Hasnt Changed, has BS4 Now)

Vyper: (Hasnt Changed, Has BS4 Now, not open-topped)

Nightspinner (Hasnt Changed),

Fire Prism (Hasnt Changed)

Falcon (Hasnt Changed, BS4 now)

War Walkers (Hasnt Changed, BS4 Now)

Armoury: Range: Strength: AP: Type:
Lasblaster 24” 4 5 Assault 2
Shuriken Pistol 12” 4 5 Pistol
Shuriken Catapult 12”-18” 4 5 Assault 2 (Assault 1 at Range 18”)
Avenger Catapult 18” 4 5 Assault 2
Fusion Pistol 6” 8 1 Pistol,Melta
Fusion gun 12” 8 1 Assault 1,Melta
Crystal Carbine 12” 3 2 Assault 1
Shuriken Cannon 36” 6 5 Heavy 3
Scatter Laser 36” 6 6 Heavy 4
Starcannon 36” 6 2 Heavy 3
Eldar Missle Launcher:
Krak 48” 8 3 Heavy 1
Plasma 48” 4 4 Heavy 1,blast
Bright Lance: 36” 9 2 Heavy 1, Lance
Prism Cannon: Hasnt Changed
Doomweaver: Hasnt Changed
Wraithcannon: Hasnt Changed
Death Spinner 12” 6 6 Assault 2
Reaper Launcher: 48” 5 3 Heavy 2
Laser Lance: 12” 6 4 Assault 1
Pulse Laser: 48” 9 2 Heavy 2



Eldar Army List:
Force Organisation Chart:
Mandatory:
1HQ 2 Troops
Optional:
1 HQ 4 Troops 3 Elites 3 Fast Attack 3 Heavy Support

HQ-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Avatar of Khaine: 155

Autarch 70 Points
Options:
May Replace Close Combat weapon with....
Power Weapon..............................10 points
Executioner...................................20 points
Scorpion Chainsword...................10 points
Laser Lance (only on Jetbike)......20 points
Crystal Blade................................10 points
Scorpions Claw.............................25 Points
May Replace Pistol with:
Fusion Pistol.................................10 points
Fusion Gun...................................10 points
Deathspinner.................................10 points
Reaper Launcher...........................15 points
Lasblaster.......................................5 points
Laser Lance...................................20 points
Crystal Carbine.............................15 points
Avener Shuriken Catapult.............5 points
May Take:
Plasma Assault Launcher...............10 points (unit is armed with Offesive and Defensive Grenades)
Banshee Mask................................3 points
Mandiblasters................................10 points
Jetbike............................................25 points
Warp Jump Generator....................20 points
Swooping Hawk Wings.................20 points (Also gives 4+ Cover)

Farseer: 60 points
Options:
May replace Shuriken Pistol with a Fusion Pistol......10 points
May Take:
Spirit Stones..................................20 points
Runes of Warding.........................15 points
Runes of Witnessing.....................15 points
Jetbike...........................................25 points
May take up to 3 Psychic Powers:
Guide............................................20 Points
Doom............................................25 Points
Fortune.........................................30 Points
Forsee...........................................20 Points
Eldritch Storm..............................15 Points
Warp Lightning.............................15 Points
Mind War......................................15 Points

For Each Farseer in the army, you may include a unit of Warlocks, these do not count HQ, but otherwise functions as a seperate HQ unit.

Warlocks: 25 Points each
Unit Compositoin:
3-10 Warlocks
Options:
May take up to 1 Psychic Power:
Conceal.......................................15 Points
Warp Shield................................15 Points
Embolden....................................5 Points
Enhance......................................10 Points
Destructor...................................10 Points
May take:
Jetbike........................................25 Points
May take a Wave serpent as a Dedicated Transport (This option is not for warlocks that are with Guardians)

Troops:
Defender Guardians 8 points each
Unit Composition:
5-20 Defender Guardians
Options:
1 model in the Squad may replace there Shuriken catapults with:
Flamer...........................................5 points
Fusion gun....................................10 points

For every 10 guardians, 2 models in the squad may be upgraded to a Support Weapon team with one of the weapons from the following list:
Bright Lance.........................................30 Points
Pulse Laser............................................30 Points
Eldar Missle Launcher..........................20 Points
Starcannon............................................20 Points
Scatter Laser.........................................15 Points
Shuriken Cannon..................................10 Points
The Unit may be joined by a Warlock (See HQ section for points cost)
May take a Wave Serpent as a Dedicated Transport

Storm Guardians 8 Points each
Unit Composition:
5-20 Storm Guardians
Options:
Up to 2 Models in the Squad may exchange there CCW and Pistol with:
Flamer..............................5 Points
Fusion gun.......................10 Points
All models may take:
Plasma Grenades..............1 Point per model
Melta bombs....................5 Points per model
The unit may be joined by a Warlock (See HQ section for points cost)
May take a Wave Serpent as a dedicated transport

Dire Avengers 12 Points each
Unit Composition:
5-10 Dire Avengers
Options:
One Dire Avenger may be upgraded to a Exarch
Exarch may replace CCW and/or Pistol with:
Avenger Shuriken Catapult.............Free
Shimmershield................................10 Points
Diresword........................................10 Points
Power Weapon.................................5 points
Exarch May take:
Bladestorm......................................15 Points
Defend.............................................10 Points
Dire Avengers may take:
Plasma Grenades.............................1 Point per model
May take a Wave Serpent as a dedicated Transport

Rangers 18 points per mpdel
Unit Composition
5-10 Rangers
All models may be upgraded to Pathfinders....6 points per model

Guardian Jetbike Squad (Hasnt Changed)


Elites:

Howing Banshees 16 Points per model
Unit Composition:
5-10 Howling Banshees
One Banshee May be upgraded to an Exarch.....10 Points
Exarch may Replace CCW and/or Pistol with:
Executioner..............................10 Points (Hasnt Changed)
Triskele.....................................5 Points (Hasnt Changed)
Mirrorswords............................5 Points (Hasnt Changed)
Power Weapon..........................Free
Exarch May take:
War Shout................................10 Points
Acrobatics................................10 Points
May take a Wave Serpent as a Dedicated Transport

Fire Dragons 16 Points per model
Unit Composition:
5-10 Fire Dragons
Options:
One Fire Dragon May be upgraded to an Exarch....10 Points
Exarch May Replace CCW and/or Pistol with:
Fusion gun..............................Free
Fire pike..................................5 Points (Hasnt Changed)
Dragons Breath Flamer...........5 Points (Hasnt Changed)
Exarch May take:
Crack Shot.............................5 Points
Tank Hunters.........................10 Points
Any model in the Unit may replace their Fusion gun with:
Flamer....................................Free
Any Fire Dragon may Replace their Fusion with Flamers for Free
May take a Wave Serpent as a Dedicated Transport

Crystal Dragons 16 Points per model
Unit Composition:
5-10 Crystal Dragons
One Crystal Dragon may be upgraded to an Exarch...10 Points
Exarch May Replcae CCW and/or Pistol with:
Crystal Blade.....................Free
Crystal Carbine..................Free
Executioner.......................10 Points (Hasnt Changed)
Scorpion Claw...................15 Points (Hasnt Changed)
Exarch May take:
Withdraw...........................10 Points
Acrobatics.........................10 Points
May take a Wave Serpent as a Dedicated Transport

Striking Scorpions (Havent Changed, Exarch costs 10, shadowstrike costs 10 and Stalker costs 10)
May take a Wave Serpent as a Dedicataed Transport

Harlequins (Havent Changed.. AT ALL)

Wriathguard 30 Points per model
Unit Composition:
3-10 Wraithguard (If 10 Wriahtguard chosen, may be taken as a Troop Choice)
Options:
May be joined by a Warlock
May take a Wave Serpent as a Dedicated Transport

Fast Attack:
Warp Spiders 20 Points per model
Unit Composition:
5-10 Warp Spiders
Options:
One Warp Spider may be upgraded to an exarch for 10 points
Exarch may replace CCW and/or Pistol with:
Deathspinner...................................Free
Dual Deathspinners........................5 points (Hasnt Changed)
Spinneret Rifle...............................5 points (Hasnt changed, assault 2 now)
Exarch may Take:
Powerblades...................................10 points (Hasnt changed)
Withdraw........................................10 points
Surprise Assault.............................10 points

Shining Spears 25 points per model
Unit Composition:
3-10 Shining Spears
Options:
One Shining Spear may be upgraded to an exarch on a Jetbike.. 10 points
Exarch may replace CCW and/or Pistol with:
Laser lance.................................Free
Star Lance..................................10 points (Hasnt Changed)
Exarch may take:
Withdraw...................................10 points
Furious Onslaught.....................10 points

Swooping Hawks 20 points per model
Unit Composition:
5-10 Swooping Hawks
Options:
One Swooping Hawk may be upgraded to an Exarch with Swooping hawk wings....10 points
Exarch may take:
Lasblaster...............................Free
Haywire Grenades.................Free
Hawks Talon..........................5 points
Sunrifle..................................10 points
Power Weapon.......................10 points
Exarch may take:
Skyleap..................................10 points
Intercept.................................5 points



Vyper Squadron 50 points per model
Unit Composition:
1-3 Vypers
Options:
Vypers may take:
Bright lance...............................30 points
Eldar Missle Launcher...............20 points
Starcannon.................................20 points
Scatter Laser..............................15 points
Shuriken Cannon.......................5 points
Vypers may be upgraded with:
Holo-fields.................................25 points
Vectored Engines.......................15 points
Star Engines...............................15 points
Spirit Stones...............................5 points

Heavy Support:
Support Weapon battery (Hasnt Changed, D-Cannon changed to range 48” Ordanance Barrage, Vibro Cannon has now a base strength of 6,and counts as Ordanance Barrage, Shadowweaver counts as Ordanance Barrage ,and has the same special rule as the Nightspinner) The unit may move and Fire their Weapon, every platform costs 50 points now, D-cannon 35 points, Vibro cannon20 points, Shadowweaver 20 points)

Dark Reapers 20 Points per Model
Unit Composition:
3-6 Dark Reapers
Options:
One Dark Reaper may be upgraded to an Exarch....10 points
Exarch may take:
Reaper Launcher..........................Free
Eldar Missle Launcher.................10 points
Tempest Launcher........................10 points (Hasnt Changed)
May take:
Fast Shot......................................10 points
Crack Shot....................................5 points
May take a Wave Serpent as a Dedicated transport

Wraithlord 100 Points
Unit Composition:
1 Wraithlord
Options:
May take 2 of the Following:

Bright Lance.......................30 Points
Eldar Missle Launcher.......20 Points
Starcannon.........................20 Points
Scatter Laser......................15 Points
Wraithsword......................10 Points (if 2 are taken, the Wraithlord gains +1 attack)
Shuriken Cannon...............10 Points

War Walker Squadron (Hasnt Changed)

Falcon 80 Points
Unit Composition:
1 Falcon (comes with stock pulse laser)
Options:
May take 1 of the Following:
Pulse Laser............................30 Points
Bright Lance.........................30 Points
Eldar Missle Launcher..........20 Points
Starcannon............................20 Points
Scatter Laser.........................15 Points
Shuriken Cannon..................10 Points
May replace the Twin-Linked Shuriken catapult for a Shuriken Cannon....10 Points
May Take:
Holo-Fields...........................25 Points
Vectored Engines..................15 Points
Star Engines..........................15 Points
Spirirt Stones........................10 Points

Fire Prism 105 Points
Unit Composition:
1 Fire Prism
May Take:
Holo-Fields...........................25 Points
Vectored Engines..................15 Points
Star Engines..........................15 Points
Spirirt Stones........................10 Points
May replace the Twin-Linked Shuriken catapult for a Shuriken Cannon....10 Points

Nightspinner 105 Points
Unit Composition:
1 Night Spinner
May Take:
Holo-Fields...........................25 Points
Vectored Engines..................15 Points
Star Engines..........................15 Points
Spirirt Stones........................10 Points
May replace the Twin-Linked Shuriken catapult for a Shuriken Cannon....10 Points



Dedicated Transports:
Wave Serpent 80 Points
May take 1 of the Following:
Bright Lance.........................35 Points (Twin-Linked)
Eldar Missle Launcher..........25 Points (Twin-Linked)
Starcannon............................25 Points (Twin-Linked)
Scatter Laser.........................20 Points (Twin-Linked)
Shuriken Cannon..................15 Points (Twin-Linked)
May Take:
Vectored Engines..................15 Points
Star Engines..........................15 Points
Spirirt Stones........................10 Points
May replace the Twin-Linked Shuriken catapult for a Shuriken Cannon....10 Points

Feel free to tear it apart!

I still feel like the Defender Guardian issue is being blown out of proportion. They're so easy to fit into the codex with their own little niche and popular opinion here seems to be that somehow that would be a bad thing. But nevermind, not gonna fight a losing battle.

And usually I am not intimidated by a wall of text but damn! That is the chinesse wall of DakkaDakka!

Wait... so you just created this off the top of ur head, or it is actually information you have that will be in the next codex probably??

rivers64 wrote:Wait... so you just created this off the top of ur head, or it is actually information you have that will be in the next codex probably??

I highly doubt there's even rough drafts at the moment, so it's most likely a wish-list (something we're trying to avoid in this thread).

There are a lot of problems with that post. You fail to address some issues, make unneeded changes, and have some pretty wild costs and changes.

48" range Barrage D-cannons? As in, Guided death platforms of uber-killing?
20 point dark reapers? I think they should become cheaper, but thats a little much.

I think the fundamental problem is that no real changes are made. All that really happens is that the units we already have just get better in all the little ways but are still the same units.

rivers64 wrote:I think the fundamental problem is that no real changes are made. All that really happens is that the units we already have just get better in all the little ways but are still the same units.

The Eldar army list, by and large, does not need wholesale changes. It needs only 2 things: 1) 18" shuriken catapults, 2) things to cost what they're actually worth.

Outside of that, sure there's things that could use tightening up, but it's really just gravy.

rivers64 wrote:Wait... so you just created this off the top of ur head, or it is actually information you have that will be in the next codex probably??

I am trying to fix all the current problems


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:

rivers64 wrote:Wait... so you just created this off the top of ur head, or it is actually information you have that will be in the next codex probably??

I highly doubt there's even rough drafts at the moment, so it's most likely a wish-list (something we're trying to avoid in this thread).

if you call trying to fix units wishlisting, then this entire thread is just about wishlisting