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Zid wrote:Its a Monolith on wheels.

And we all know how much the monolith sucks, right? So lets give it a pair of twin-linked multimeltas.

I'm in the "this is sort of OP" camp.

Ouze wrote:

Zid wrote:Its a Monolith on wheels.

I'm in the "this is sort of OP" camp.

actually...I'll do a poll.


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http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/329148.page

That is awesome. Does anyone know if it can be used in a BA army...if so, consider it sold!

Element206 wrote:That is awesome. Does anyone know if it can be used in a BA army...if so, consider it sold!

no- any other MEQ army and it's a yes. could use it apoc. though.

It looks awesome imo, but I confess i like every land raider,
this one looks just more...more.

I'm still building up my army and have no battle experience as yet but from what I've read in 5th ed, most people take vehicles as transports/ for their transport capabilities so if this cannot transport anything, is it likely to be very popular?

It does, however, say that it has a hull mounted thunderfire cannon at the expense of transport capacity. Does that mean you could take out the thunderfire cannon and use it as a transport and that it would still have all the extra toughness? Afterall, it does say it can transport 6 models in the stats. It'd be a pretty awesome transport then and you'd still have two twin linked multi meltas.

ColdSadHungry wrote:I'm still building up my army and have no battle experience as yet but from what I've read in 5th ed, most people take vehicles as transports/ for their transport capabilities so if this cannot transport anything, is it likely to be very popular?

It can transport troops. It just can't transport as many troops as a normal land raider.

It can't even transport as many as a Rhino.

Vaktathi wrote:Because you can stick a cheap scoring unit in it and have it sit on an objective being nigh immovable for many armies and it'll always be able to fire at least one gun at something.

'Cause that's an effective use of a 300 point vehicle.

You really think that someone is going to spend all that time and money on this Land Raider, then spend 300 points in a list just to have it sit on an objective with 6 men inside? Really?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Because you can stick a cheap scoring unit in it and have it sit on an objective being nigh immovable for many armies and it'll always be able to fire at least one gun at something.

'Cause that's an effective use of a 300 point vehicle.

You really think that someone is going to spend all that time and money on this Land Raider, then spend 300 points in a list just to have it sit on an objective with 6 men inside? Really?

Yes, they will, because holding Objectives win you the game. This isn't 4th edition anymore.

Most stupid ridiculous SM release to date, how are armies like Craft world Eldar and the inquisition code's meant to even destroy that thing, and who thought of the fluff and design, it's rediculous ! WHY?

BuFFo wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Because you can stick a cheap scoring unit in it and have it sit on an objective being nigh immovable for many armies and it'll always be able to fire at least one gun at something.

'Cause that's an effective use of a 300 point vehicle.

You really think that someone is going to spend all that time and money on this Land Raider, then spend 300 points in a list just to have it sit on an objective with 6 men inside? Really?

Yes, they will, because holding Objectives win you the game. This isn't 4th edition anymore.

Considering that it can sit there and use its weaponry to full effect, it's certainly far from a bad strategy.

Yeah, I don't like it. Will it kill 300 points worth of enemies? Maybe not, but TF cannons can be damned annoying. Put it on about as unkillable chassis as can be found, with a small scoring unit inside, and I definitely call shenanigans. It has an anti infantry range to beggar all, and no vehicle dares approach? Call it a lack of specialization if you will, I call it a lack of weakness.

Bookwrack wrote:

BuFFo wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Because you can stick a cheap scoring unit in it and have it sit on an objective being nigh immovable for many armies and it'll always be able to fire at least one gun at something.

'Cause that's an effective use of a 300 point vehicle.

You really think that someone is going to spend all that time and money on this Land Raider, then spend 300 points in a list just to have it sit on an objective with 6 men inside? Really?

Yes, they will, because holding Objectives win you the game. This isn't 4th edition anymore.

Considering that it can sit there and use its weaponry to full effect, it's certainly far from a bad strategy.

I would love to have a bunker that just refuses to be dislodged untill 500+points have been thrown at it. I would enjoy it soo much, 'go on roll more dice, death awaits you'

H.B.M.C. wrote:

'Cause that's an effective use of a 300 point vehicle.

You really think that someone is going to spend all that time and money on this Land Raider, then spend 300 points in a list just to have it sit on an objective with 6 men inside? Really?

Um, yes? You've assured that you're going to hold at least one objective, which in C&C will mean your opponent is at best playing for a draw, and in a KP game it means you can essentially deny your opponent up to 3 KP's (achilles plus 5man unit plus attached IC). I don't see what's wrong with that trade at all given the things ability to sit through nearly anything that isn't an S10 AP1 gun with an almost assured chance of living.

Wow, a lot of whining because it's hard to kill.

Solutions:

IG: Vanquisher. It's not immune to the extra penetration dice
Medusa
Powerfist
krak grenades
Laser destroyer (if they're using FW, so can I)

Eldar: already mentioned

SoB: Penitent Engine CC weapon,
Melta torpedo strike,
melta bombs

SM: Melta bombs
Powerfillintheblank
Dreadnought CC weapon

Dark Eldar: run circles around it. or Bend Over.

Orks: so many to choose from...

Tau: railgun

Necrons: Pray for a new codex

CSM: see SM

Nids: see Orks.

=I= White-Wolf wrote:Most stupid ridiculous SM release to date, how are armies like Craft world Eldar and the inquisition code's meant to even destroy that thing, and who thought of the fluff and design, it's rediculous ! WHY?

Simply put? You aren't, you're ment to focus on the (smaller) portion of the rest of his or her army while staying out of its way, which should be simple for Eldar at least.

And, I must admit; the only thing that remotely excites me about this tank is that Minataurs' icon on the front.

BaronIveagh wrote:Wow, a lot of whining because it's hard to kill.

Solutions:

IG: Vanquisher. It's not immune to the extra penetration dice

With a Lascannon will take you on average 16 turns of fire between Vanquisher cannon and Lascannon to take down an Achilles. Almost double what you'd need against a normal Land Raider.

Medusa

About the only reasonable option, however even against two it's about 50/50 whether the achilles can close distance and engage them with MM's or not, more in the achilles favor once Smoke comes into play.

Powerfist
krak grenades

Um, what? It's AV14 all around, krak grenades literally cannot hurt it, IG powerfists are S6 max and even SM S8 powerfists can only glance it on a 6 and the best they can do on a glance is Weapon Destroyed.

Laser destroyer (if they're using FW, so can I)

A single BS3 blast weapon which even if it hits has about a 44% chance to pen and only a 1/6 chance to destroy after that. On average, you'll get one kill result against an Achilles every 31-32 turns.

SoB: Penitent Engine CC weapon

AV11 open topped hideously overpriced coffin that has to get to the achilles without being penetrated by either the 2 TL'd MM's or the 4 shots S6 weapon that can penetrate it.

Melta torpedo strike,

Which you can't really control as you have to designate a terrain piece for it to come in before the game starts, and even if the Achilles strays into that terrain, and gets hit with the hole over the template, it'll take 10-11 shots on average.

melta bombs

Usually not in great quantity, or hideously overpriced on units that can all take them. Even assuming an auto-hit you'll need about 10 to do the job, 20 if hitting on a 4+, 60 if hitting on a 6.

Powerfillintheblank

All those S8 powerfists that can at best glance and take off a gun? Chainfists can do it if there's enough, but that's about the only route through CC that isn't a dread.

Dreadnought CC weapon

If it's an Ironclad it might be a solid option (otherwise even with 3 attacks on a charge against a 6" moving Achilles you're looking at only about a 1/12 chance to kill it, half that of a normal LR) but consider the 2x TL'd MM's on it with PotMS, that dread is likely going to have a rather difficult time making it there.

Dark Eldar: run circles around it. or Bend Over.

If it's sitting on an objective, how do you move it? If it's a KP game, that's 3 KP's an opponent is keeping safe. Oh, and you need 6's on armor pen to even glance it with 95% of the DE AT arsenal just to keep it from shooting.

Orks: so many to choose from...

Shokk Attack Gun rolling insanely well, Warboss Powerklaws, Deffrollas, and Nob Powerklaws on a charge. The only ones of any reasonable value being the Warboss Powerklaw and Deffrollas, which make still make killing the thing very awkward.

Tau: railgun

One gun out of their entire arsenal, which at BS4 still needs 13-14 shots to do (~200% what you'd need to kill a normal Land Raider)


So yes, there are ways to kill it. However the problem is that it's way harder to kill than is reasonable, taking far more effort, pre-planning, and list tailoring than should be expected.

Vaktathi wrote:
With a Lascannon will take you on average 16 turns of fire between Vanquisher cannon and Lascannon to take down an Achilles. Almost double what you'd need against a normal Land Raider.

Well, yesterday's fight with a counts as one had a Vanquisher with Pask mop the floor with it, (which is my usual Vanq loadout) so... not buying this argument.

Vaktathi wrote:
About the only reasonable option, however even against two it's about 50/50 whether the achilles can close distance and engage them with MM's or not, more in the achilles favor once Smoke comes into play.

Use a Griffon to site them in. And how is a Medusa, with shorter range and very similar weapon stats a better option then the Vanq?

Vaktathi wrote:A single BS3 blast weapon which even if it hits has about a 44% chance to pen and only a 1/6 chance to destroy after that. On average, you'll get one kill result against an Achilles every 31-32 turns.

A laser destroyer is not a blast weapon. It's Ord. See new FW FAQ.

Vaktathi wrote: AV11 open topped hideously overpriced coffin that has to get to the achilles without being penetrated by either the 2 TL'd MM's or the 4 shots S6 weapon that can penetrate it.

Yes, charge right at it across open ground without any support and you will get killed. Same as with any other Landraider.

Vaktathi wrote:Which you can't really control as you have to designate a terrain piece for it to come in before the game starts, and even if the Achilles strays into that terrain, and gets hit with the hole over the template, it'll take 10-11 shots on average.

Granted, however, it's not hard to set up situations to force your opponent onto particular pieces of terrain. Particularly since you don't have to reveal which one it is until you use it, IIRC.

Vaktathi wrote:If it's an Ironclad it might be a solid option (otherwise even with 3 attacks on a charge against a 6" moving Achilles you're looking at only about a 1/12 chance to kill it, half that of a normal LR) but consider the 2x TL'd MM's on it with PotMS, that dread is likely going to have a rather difficult time making it there.

Distract it with something (infantry with meltas seems to work even though it's immune) Drop the dread behind it in a lucius pattern drop pod. Assault it on the turn it lands. You should be able to get at least a 'crew stunned' If you can immobilize, it's as good as dead anyway, the dread will tear it apart from the rear.

Vaktathi wrote:If it's sitting on an objective, how do you move it? If it's a KP game, that's 3 KP's an opponent is keeping safe. Oh, and you need 6's on armor pen to even glance it with 95% of the DE AT arsenal just to keep it from shooting.

I meant the dark eldar player, not the land raider owner.

Vaktathi wrote:
Shokk Attack Gun rolling insanely well, Warboss Powerklaws, Deffrollas, and Nob Powerklaws on a charge. The only ones of any reasonable value being the Warboss Powerklaw and Deffrollas, which make still make killing the thing very awkward.

Vaktathi wrote:]One gun out of their entire arsenal, which at BS4 still needs 13-14 shots to do (~200% what you'd need to kill a normal Land Raider)

Well, no one ever said it would be easy!

Vaktathi wrote:
So yes, there are ways to kill it. However the problem is that it's way harder to kill than is reasonable, taking far more effort, pre-planning, and list tailoring than should be expected.

I haven't even had to revise my IG list and killed two counts as ones yesterday. Pask in the Vanq got one, Vendetta squadron got it the second time.

deffrollaz!

BaronIveagh wrote: Wow, a lot of whining because it's hard to kill.

Solutions:

Powerfist

can only glance.

BaronIveagh wrote:krak grenades

Can't even hurt it.

BaronIveagh wrote:Laser destroyer (if they're using FW, so can I)

laser destoyer's apoc. only.

BaronIveagh wrote:SM: Melta bombs

you can only glance (S8) and you need to get close enough.

BaronIveagh wrote:Dreadnought CC weapon

if you survive the 2 TL MMs aimed at you.

BaronIveagh wrote:Dark Eldar: run circles around it. or Bend Over.

pfft. They rely on lance. Not a hope in hell.

BaronIveagh wrote:Orks: so many to choose from...

not really...

I do not think the eldar race literally has a single way of killing this.

I would not allow someone to take this against my armies. This is even dumber than the living metal rule for monoliths-- at least monoliths have the excuse of the army having phase out. I'd literally have to build my list around countering it, as there is only a single way that Sisters can do so.

Melissia wrote:I would not allow someone to take this against my armies. This is even dumber than the living metal rule for monoliths-- at least monoliths have the excuse of the army having phase out.

is that the rule that if the 'lith is destroyed, all the necrons die? (I dunno- never play against them)

Phase out = if a certain percent of Necrons are destroyed, the entire army phases out and loses.


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BaronIveagh wrote:SoB: Penitent Engine CC weapon,
Melta torpedo strike,
melta bombs

Penitent Engines are AV11 open topped. They won't make it into melee with this thing.

Melta torpedos must be targeted to a specific piece of terrain, and as long as the vehicle doesn't enter the terrain they won't be effected.

Melta bombs against a moving vehicle are notoriously unreliable. You only get one attack per model with melta bombs, and except for seraphim-- which are very fragile for their price-- the max per squad you can have is three, and that's only in retinue.

And you actually missed Eviscerators. 6+2d6 allows them the possibility of penetrating, but even then that requires them to, again, get into close combat with the vehicle. Something that Sisters aren't good at.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:
With a Lascannon will take you on average 16 turns of fire between Vanquisher cannon and Lascannon to take down an Achilles. Almost double what you'd need against a normal Land Raider.

Well, yesterday's fight with a counts as one had a Vanquisher with Pask mop the floor with it, (which is my usual Vanq loadout) so... not buying this argument.

Because anecdotes are statistical proof, right.

Also were you trying to say that the Orbital Bombardment and Penitent Engine are good?


Both are pretty bad. Also both have a decent chance of being difficult to control.
Bombardment restricted to terrain and the Engine very easily distracted.

Distracted? Hell, the P.Engine is easy to DESTROY.

It's FA 11, SA 11, RA 10, and open topped. It's weaker than a friggin' Ork Killer Kan.

Well yes I just meant because of Holy Rage it's likely to be running in the wrong direction to begin with.

yeah and the moral of the story is...
the reason FW are more pricey is not that the models are more detailed, or that resin costs more, it's that you pay the extra money to get broken rules!
anyway- the best way of killing this so far is your avatar

Most FW rules aren't broken, so no, that's not it.

One bad example does not damn the entire group in the eyes of a mature, intelligent person.