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Mind you, buffo has an extremely hardline stance agaisnt the GW Errata/FAQs, and against any house rules and forgeworld stuff. I doubt I'd want to play against him

Well, give that my Orks don't get anything with Melta or Lance, it's rather meh for me. It does hurt somewhat against my Witch Hunters, but then again, I'm already dealing with things like 50 point Rhinos and an older codex, so it's not likely to be a deal breaker in a game.

In modeling terms though, I really like the look of it. Eventually, I might try to swing one into my Witch Hunters army. I'm not sure how yet, but I've got time to figure it out. Lots of painting to do before I get to that point.

MrGiggles wrote:Well, give that my Orks don't get anything with Melta or Lance, it's rather meh for me. It does hurt somewhat against my Witch Hunters, but then again, I'm already dealing with things like 50 point Rhinos and an older codex, so it's not likely to be a deal breaker in a game.

In modeling terms though, I really like the look of it. Eventually, I might try to swing one into my Witch Hunters army. I'm not sure how yet, but I've got time to figure it out. Lots of painting to do before I get to that point.

use it as allied, with SoB LR doors.

MrGiggles wrote:Well, give that my Orks don't get anything with Melta or Lance, it's rather meh for me.

Actually it still hurts you. Those S10 power klaws go from 1/3rd chance to 1/6th IF they penetrate (which is what, 1/3rd of the time?).

I think its right because you lose most of the transport capacity, assault vehicle and gain TL Multi Melta's which are similarly priced to Lascannons and so only gain the TFC over a TL heavy bolter which compared to the special rules, capacity etc seems right.

No, that's not all you gain.

They gain the ability to ignore lance and melta, and ontop of that a further -1 to damage rolls if anything actually does manage to glance/penetrate.

That alone would be worth quite a damn bit more than 50 points and the transport slots.

Melissia wrote:

MrGiggles wrote:Well, give that my Orks don't get anything with Melta or Lance, it's rather meh for me.

Actually it still hurts you. Those S10 power klaws go from 1/3rd chance to 1/6th IF they penetrate (which is what, 1/3rd of the time?).

so thats...1/18th? ouch. And that's IF you hit, so if they move 6" (which they probably will), that's a 1/32nd chance of destroying it. If they move 12"...whoah. that's 1/68th. that would take 11 ghazghkulls to kill. IF they charge. worst-case scenario- if they're stuck in combat, so no charge bonus...14 ghazghkulls.
that mathammer really hurts.
[EDIT]: That's 3150pts spent on killing a 300-point LR that moved 12".

Melissia wrote:

MrGiggles wrote:Well, give that my Orks don't get anything with Melta or Lance, it's rather meh for me.

Actually it still hurts you. Those S10 power klaws go from 1/3rd chance to 1/6th IF they penetrate (which is what, 1/3rd of the time?).

Actually, it doesn't hurt me as much as you'd think. My Warbosses seem to have a 0/6 chance of actually hitting Land Raiders to begin with.

Good point though Melissa.

Melissia wrote:

MrGiggles wrote:Well, give that my Orks don't get anything with Melta or Lance, it's rather meh for me.

Actually it still hurts you. Those S10 power klaws go from 1/3rd chance to 1/6th IF they penetrate (which is what, 1/3rd of the time?).

yes, but orks already had a hard time with LRs. they just ignore it or hit it with a Deffrolla(which will kill it eventually)

The deffrolla is also reduced in effectiveness.

yes, but it's still a pretty reliable way to get Str10 hits on a target(auto hits too)

Grey Templar wrote:yes, but it's still a pretty reliable way to get Str10 hits on a target(auto hits too)

it's still a 1/18 chance (1/3 to pen, 1/6 to destroy)

shrike wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:yes, but it's still a pretty reliable way to get Str10 hits on a target(auto hits too)

it's still a 1/18 chance (1/3 to pen, 1/6 to destroy)

Da Orkses dunt care bout yr stinking probabilites

we fink itll wurk and so it is gunna wurk

My Salamanders want one!

If ever there was vehicle you need to keep out of 12" range its this one...TL MM so a reroll, double if half range? Machine Spirit so glancing etc will not necessarily stop it shooting at you plus it can shoot at 2 different targets per turn. Nevermind the Thunderfire! This is one of those stupid one trick ponies that looks amazing on paper but then someone comes up with a damn near foolproof method to take it out and everyone then gravitates to the next FW LR release as the Achilles shows its Heel....

Its like the Terminus Ultra, its not for regular gaming per see as for those monster Apocalypse Games that come along once every 6months..

This is kind of like the Dark Angels' Land Raider Ares. for 300 points, you get a Land Raider with a demolisher cannon and two twin-linked heavy flamers and no transport capability. It is the heaviest hitting tank allowed to a Space Marine chapter since they took Leman Russes away from the Space Wolves.

TFG:" but why dump 300 points into it?"

because its AV 14 and dropping pie plates... it's almost a two-for-one deal. screw no transport abilities, at least for Dark Angels... Deathwing Redemption Force: no deep strike scatter...

rules aside, the model is fantastic!

well because its so rare and tough I would say make it 0-1 heavy support. sure it costs a ton but facing 3 of them doesn't seem to fit fluff and that would be annoying facing 2+ of these tanks. thats a lot of fire power for 2 of them. they can kill a squad and a tank a turn each lol.

I think its balanced for its points though.

GamzaTheChaos wrote:
I think its balanced for its points though.

That's the whole dilemma. "Balance" and "Pricing" aint the same thing as this model clearly shows (some commonly seen "overpowered" special characters have similar problems).

Balance is a question of how easy or not easy it is to achieve the conditions necessary to "win" a game of 40K with respect to what else is (potentially) in your list and what (potentially) is in your opponents list. Simply adding or substracting point costs doesn't much change that composition. Alot of it has to do with availability (as can be evidenced by limits to special weapon loadouts, the "movements of units around in the FoC (or the existance of a FoC in the first place), etc.., or your own suggestion of making it 0-1).

There's "overpriced". There is "unbalanced". There is "unkillable". The Achillies is NOT unkillable. The Achilles is NOT overpriced. The Achilles is, however, clearly unbalanced. They are different things.

This behemoth would be utterly amazing if I could use it in my CSM army Toting around three terminators is all I need!

Completely overpowered. The only army that can effectively kill this thing is imperial guard (possibly tau) due to the massive amount of STR10 stuff they can muster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Element206 wrote:rules aside, the model is fantastic!

I agree ^.^ It looks really good.

Agreed, after reading the following thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/328465.page I am worried! Taking this to an extreme (but someone will do it!) conclusion. Someone will buy Lysander and then one of these bad boys and WTF is anyone going to do about it! These overpowered units are getting a bit tiresome, unless you know your going up against these things your generic balanced army will not be equipped and willl probably get slammed.

mwnciboo wrote:Agreed, after reading the following thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/328465.page I am worried! Taking this to an extreme (but someone will do it!) conclusion. Someone will buy Lysander and then one of these bad boys and WTF is anyone going to do about it! These overpowered units are getting a bit tiresome, unless you know your going up against these things your generic balanced army will not be equipped and willl probably get slammed.

oh- I have lysander (and use him often) and I am getting the achilles... how about this for my support/distraction unit- lysander, chaplain (HF, TA), termie libby (SS, avenger, null zone) in the achilles. BTW if you're wandering if that's the support unit, what the feths the lead unit?!, it's this:
8 captains
shrike
korvydae
chapter master
libby
2 chaplains
master of the forge
vanguard veterans
chief librarian (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/327781.page).
FYI, this is not meant to be competitive, or even decent- It is meant to be fun to play with.

Look the only thing that will stop that list is the Emperor himself descending from the Throne and screaming "Stop, its all too much...." him or his secret son C.N.

C.N? who's that?
or a well-placed vortex missile

chuck norris.....?

Devastator wrote:chuck norris.....?

of course! how could i forget?! *flogging self* "forgive me, C.N!"

Actually, this is a tough one to vote on.

One the one hand, it's ludicrously overpowered as far as durability is concerned. Other than a lucky shot with a wraithcannon or wychblade, there is literally no way for an eldar army to destroy it, and that's assuming that the marine player even lets a wraithcannon or wychblade close enough.

Likewise, EVERY army has basically only one or two things that stand ANY chance of hurting it. Basically, it took the most awful, broken rule of the monolith and brought it back from the 3rd ed grave.

On the other hand, seriously, 300 points for a pair of multimeltas and a worthless TFC with no transport capability? Worst. land raider. ever.

So it is little more than an invincible, impotent showpiece. I'm not sure whether to never let an opponent field it, or to encourage him to always take as many as possible...

Don't call other posters names. -The Mgmt.

I just faced 2 proxies of these in a 2000 point game Saturday.
They are ridiculously undercosted.
Since the datasheet does not say it's still an assault vehicle, we didn't use it as one (though, with the launchers still on it, I don't see why they won't change it to add that in).

Even with that "limitation," the best we were able to do was immobilize one and shake the other semi-regularly.

Think about it... a glance is -2, this think gives a -1... Roll a 6 on a glance and a weapon's gone. Anything else just equals no shoot.

Even on a penetrating hit, you'll NEVER explode it.

It's ridiculous, unnecessary, and highly undercosted.

Also, I want 3 for my SM army. : )


Eric

What an Assault Vehicle for 3 termies? or 6 regular SM? you've got to be taking the piss....As you say the only thing to do is hammer this vehicle so often that its glanced into ineffectiveness and it becomes a 300pt Anti-tank weapon practice range, its never going to "high order".