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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/05 15:35:55
Subject: Re:Doom Wheel...Thunderstomp?
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Stoic Grail Knight
Houston, Texas
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I dont mind a pre judged comp score, that way its, for the most part, consistant across all armies.
What I dont like is an opponent based comp score, as to many things can skew that.
For example, I played a game where my level four got lucky and one shot my opponents hell cannon on turn one, then stole his level 4's pandamonium and rolled  wiping out a 500+ point chosen star with characters.
Then on his turn his level 4 got sucked into the warp, taking a lot of models with it.
I got comped INTO THE GROUND on that game, and it wasnt because my army was necessarily hard, but simply because I wont the game in less than one turn due to sheer luck of the dice. Granted, numerous players would keep that in mind and not comp the list, but most would look straight past the insane dice and simply attribute the loss to the "his army was to hard". I also got hit by sports that game with a note saying that anyone who brings a list like that is not a good sport.
In 4 games this was the only comp and sports hit I got all day, I even got one best sport vote.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/05 15:37:11
Daemons-
Bretonnia-
Orcs n' Goblins- |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/05 16:24:52
Subject: Doom Wheel...Thunderstomp?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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But... that description sounds more like poor sportsmanship and sour grapes on your opponent's side more than anything to do with either army comp (hard or soft)...
Am I misunderstanding something?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/05 16:36:21
Subject: Re:Doom Wheel...Thunderstomp?
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Cosmic Joe
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Clearly SA has had expirience with the worst kind of comp ever concieved, oponnent comp. It has been known for organised groups to own such tournaments simply by voting down on anyone who had a chance to beat their chose representitive, immediatly exposing the rotten core in this already hole filled sistem.
It's like the TO said i'm too lazy to judge just bring your friends and do it for me
PS: No seriously can anyone else hear that?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/05 19:53:32
Nosebiter wrote:Codex Space Marine is renamed as Codex Counts As Because I Dont Like To Loose And Gw Hates My Army. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/05 19:46:49
Subject: Doom Wheel...Thunderstomp?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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SA - yuck, player chosen Comp is horrific.
The ONLY thing your opponent should be able to do is VOTE for:
a) Most sporting opponent
b) whether the player was a douche - no points gained or loss, but if a proportion of opponents all agree that 1 player was an idiot, and can back it up when questioned, then that player shouldnt be able to win, regardless of their points.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/05 19:55:49
Subject: Doom Wheel...Thunderstomp?
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Cosmic Joe
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nosferatu1001 wrote:SA - yuck, player chosen Comp is horrific.
The ONLY thing your opponent should be able to do is VOTE for:
a) Most sporting opponent.
b) Least sporting opponent, who can never place above 4th place
Fixed it for ya
PS: It's getting fainter but i can still hear it...
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Nosebiter wrote:Codex Space Marine is renamed as Codex Counts As Because I Dont Like To Loose And Gw Hates My Army. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/05 20:32:50
Subject: Doom Wheel...Thunderstomp?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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They just dont "place" at all. They're also politely spoken to and warned that repeated ill votes could exclude them from taking part in the future.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/05 22:46:03
Subject: Doom Wheel...Thunderstomp?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet you do find out ahead of time - I've made that point already, you just keep avoiding / ignoring it.
So you're advocating a matrix-style so that you know your exact score before hand? IE easily broken to find a way through the comp system. IE the same argument you use against hard comp.
Hard comp means you cannot play the army you want to play, unless you somehow match on whatever random "no no"s the TO has decided on for that tournament.*
So you can't play with what you want vs you can play what you want but won't have fun games and /or won't win anything.
Hard comp is an epic fail, and you have nothing that can counter that. Preventing someone from taking the army they WANT to play, that is 100% book legal, automtically makes it less fun, before you even get to the tournament!
As if GW are paragons of perfect game design. Sorry, but the 100% book legal argument is bunk on a balance issue. Not to mention that soft scoring is an epic fail on the matchup/balance issue (More than hard comp)
Soft scores published ahead of time, with discussion entered into, results in a closer competition, a larger pool of players, and more variety in armies. As opposed to hard comp where you get the same 3 broken army lists - that are broken under the totally imperfect hard comp, remember - from the people who can afford to / have the time to tailor lists to the tournament, while everyone else gets stomped on.
And you have the same result with soft comp. You get the same 3 broken (for the comp) lists. From my experience, significant comp of any kind leads to identical 'approved' lists. I've seen a wider variety of lists under no comp than heavy comp. I've played in an area where all 5 games, I basically played against the same Marine list with different paint jobs.
*Your assertion that only those with the "most broken" models cant play under hard comp is UTTER bunk. If you have only collected 2500 points, and the tournament is 2200 and you cant take 800 point because of *insert random personal dislike here* then you CAN play, possibly. But you're at a massive disadvantage before hand.
Problem is that those 800 points that you can't use can be repurposed to be 500 points of same model with a different name. Like I said, bunk. It's the same argument as to the newbie who only has a 2000 point army, but the tournament is 2500 points.
Quite frankly, tournaments aren't for everyone to come. I can get plenty of games at the FLGS.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/06 04:59:38
Subject: Doom Wheel...Thunderstomp?
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Huge Bone Giant
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Question for you skyth. I am a player who likes tourneys, I started with 40k and am getting into fantasy. I am building a TK list around Khalida because I like the idea of it. Once of the tourneys I have looked into has a hard comp that actually prevents me from playing with the fluffy army I am building. Ever. Or at least until TK AB is re-released . . . . How is that the same as (or even comparable to) soft comp that simply makes it harder for me to win the tourney? Editing to add: I think the composition of an army is and should be determined by what GW determined to be an option included in the relevant rule books. To add/remove restrictions is to play a different game. Some of GW's decisions are assinine, but arbitrarily changing them just means folks inclined to take advantage will be even more able to do so. Also. . .what would lead to a Doomwheel thunderstomp? I am 100% missing that.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2011/01/06 05:06:09
"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/06 05:03:49
Subject: Doom Wheel...Thunderstomp?
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Cosmic Joe
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kirsanth wrote:How is that the same as (or even comparable to) soft comp that simply makes it harder for me to win the tourney?
Because skyth the allknowing said so
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Nosebiter wrote:Codex Space Marine is renamed as Codex Counts As Because I Dont Like To Loose And Gw Hates My Army. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/06 06:49:14
Subject: Doom Wheel...Thunderstomp?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Skyth - sigh. What part of "requires some work on part of the TO AHEAD OF TIME" do you keep missing?>
Do you not submit lists for verification? When you do so your list is scored. If you dont like the score, you can resubmit.
Yes, this requires some work on the part of the TO team. Big deal.
So, still superior to hard comp.
To reiterate: I HATE comp, of any kind. It is NOT needed in fantasy OR 40k. If you're playing in tournaments with comp in 40k, get some better tournaments up and running.
I have shown proof that soft comp can help within the matchup, to make a beatstick army have to work for the win, not a draw. I used an EXTREME example, which is about the only time it even gets close to failure in matchup. Given I've run soft comp fantasy I can tell you that your argument fails the "in practice" test. Repeatedly.
PLaying for a draw gets you nothing in a tournament, I assume you realise this?
So my 800 points of stegadons can be repurposed into something else? Nope. No double rare, with my skink priest taking up a rare slot for his mount (EotG) means i cant add one in there. Points limit in special means I cant stick more than 2 in there.
Try again. Oh wait, at every turn your argument is shown to fail in theory and practice.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/06 06:50:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/06 13:34:36
Subject: Doom Wheel...Thunderstomp?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Funny, the EotG does not take up a rare slot. Try again.
As for pre-submitting, in a lot of cases you have to had to have paid and registered to get a score.
Not to mention, judged comp leads to fustration, arguments, and bad feelings.
And no, you haven't shown proof that soft scoring can help with matchups because it leads to encouraging negative play.
And you are totally ignoring the fact that lopsided games aren't much fun.
Not to mention, that EVERY SINGLE TOURNAMENT has hard comp in the form of a points limit. If the points limit is 2000 points, and the army I want to play is 2250, then I have to change my army or I can't play. That basically refutes about every argument you made.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/06 14:42:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/06 13:51:04
Subject: Doom Wheel...Thunderstomp?
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Cosmic Joe
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How bout you two agree to disagree and spare us all the drama
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Nosebiter wrote:Codex Space Marine is renamed as Codex Counts As Because I Dont Like To Loose And Gw Hates My Army. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/06 14:33:38
Subject: Doom Wheel...Thunderstomp?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Probably should just get the thread locked.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/01/06 14:48:19
Subject: Doom Wheel...Thunderstomp?
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[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
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skyth wrote:Probably should just get the thread locked.
Indeed. Glad the original query was answered anyway, feel free to discuss this in another thread if you feel you haven't slammed your head against a wall enough already.
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The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king, |
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