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BrookM wrote:Phoenix Lords wear magical armour of immortality forever and ever and are the original bunch who were taught by Asurman back in the day. The current Striking Scorpion Lord is a bit of an odd duckling though.

They do? I could have swore there was something in the Eldar fluff about how the Aspects "elected" one of their number to ascend to the position of Phoenix Lord.

Or that may be confusing it with the fluff for the Court of the Young King.

Kanluwen wrote:

BrookM wrote:Phoenix Lords wear magical armour of immortality forever and ever and are the original bunch who were taught by Asurman back in the day. The current Striking Scorpion Lord is a bit of an odd duckling though.

They do? I could have swore there was something in the Eldar fluff about how the Aspects "elected" one of their number to ascend to the position of Phoenix Lord.

Or that may be confusing it with the fluff for the Court of the Young King.

You are. The Phoenix Lords themselves choose their next host Exarch body, there isn't a vote.

Good to know.

Even if that is an absurdly weird thing. Is it the Soulstone that does it or what?

Kanluwen wrote:Good to know.

Even if that is an absurdly weird thing. Is it the Soulstone that does it or what?

I think so, but I'd have to find the exact fluff passage(it was regarding Kirandras).

Read Path of the Warrior, Phoenix Lords are in it and it is explained how they keep on popping up over the millennia.

Gavin Thorne wrote:Slicing Orbs would be cool, but I think it's nice to leave people guessing what they really are. Also, that's the first I've heard of Stalking Panthers or Raging Bulls being in any of the prior codexes...

Alright, I tracked down the web source that I got those two from, but it seems to be MIA these days- 40K Cantina (I posted about it a long time ago in the middle of this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/169968.page ). But I can't find the original text reference yet. I'm guessing it wasn't in the codices but maybe a WD or one of the old core expansions like Dark Millenium or something.

I'm going to keep looking for the original source, as holes in my memory irk me. It might have been something some private individual made up and I may just be chasing the white rabbit, though.

And I believe it was "Charging Bulls", not Raging Bulls (great movie that was, though). And now something in my mind tells me the other one might have been "Void Panthers". Eegads, getting older does terrible things to one's mental fluff file.

EDIT: Hmmm, the Slicing Orbs come from Codex Eldar 2nd ed., page 23, according to 40KLexicanum. I'm at work and don't have my electronic copies of the old codex here... could anyone with the old books handy take a peek at that page and see whether these other two aspects are mentioned there as well?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Alpharius wrote:I'm just hoping we eventually get a Warp Spider Phoenix Lord...

Y'know... I hope we don't. The Phoenix Lords have always struck me as the original founders of the original Aspect Shrines, and that the reason there's no Warp Spider Phoenix Lord is that it was one of the types of Aspect Warriors that was developed later.

Actually, they are just really powerful Exarchs from the Codex. And I'd love to see a Spider Phoenix Lord myself...

BrookM wrote:Read Path of the Warrior, Phoenix Lords are in it and it is explained how they keep on popping up over the millennia.

That book should be required reading before anyone is allowed to field an Eldar army. I held off on reading it for quite a while, fearing the Hand of Gav that butchered the 3rd ed. codex and authored the only Last Chancers stuff I'd read. But upon reading "Path", it becomes clear that he has really, really matured as an author. It's one of the best pieces of soft scifi alien-perspective fiction that I've read in a loooong time. Feels like some of the best of 70's scifi, actually.

As for new Phoenix Lords, the PLs are essentially super-exarchs, with concentrated singular personalities rather than the collective mind of a normal Exarch. The canonical ones do have a historical connection as the first of Asurmen's trainees- but that's not necessarily what made them into immortals. If new aspects can come about, so can new Exarchs, with their own mystical armor-inhabiting group soul. It's not that big of a jump from that to a full-blown Phoenix Lord, really.

But aesthetically, it does seem a little silly that _every_ aspect could have a PL. Maybe it takes time and a certain psychic "critical mass" to create the demigod-like intelligence of a PL... sort of like the hinted emergence of Ynnead, god od the Dead from the infinity circuits when they have enough Eldar souls in them. Thus only the more venerable aspects would have PLs. And as some gain that status, the PL emerges.

BrookM wrote:Read Path of the Warrior, Phoenix Lords are in it and it is explained how they keep on popping up over the millennia.

Is definitely on my list, have no fear. Have to work through Purging of Kadillus and some more first though!

Savnock wrote:That book should be required reading before anyone is allowed to field an Eldar army. I held off on reading it for quite a while, fearing the Hand of Gav that butchered the 3rd ed. codex and authored the only Last Chancers stuff I'd read. But upon reading "Path", it becomes clear that he has really, really matured as an author. It's one of the best pieces of soft scifi alien-perspective fiction that I've read in a loooong time. Feels like some of the best of 70's scifi, actually.

I appreciate hearing this perspective. I've actually been avoiding all material Gav Thorpe-related for exactly these reasons. That and when asked about his work on the codex, he came off as a total prat. But after hearing this, I think I may have to take a look into his newer stuff. Thanks, Savnock!

Kanluwen wrote:

BrookM wrote:Read Path of the Warrior, Phoenix Lords are in it and it is explained how they keep on popping up over the millennia.

Is definitely on my list, have no fear. Have to work through Purging of Kadillus and some more first though!

You will LOVE it. Proves what you've said about Gav Thorpe of late. Now if only Graham McNeill could keep his stuff at Storm of Iron level . . .

About the Phoenix Lords: so am I missing something here about their immorality. I thought it was just adopting the Phoenix Lord persona but you meld souls? Cool.

Storm of Iron was killer.

I'll have to read Path of the Warrior. I love Eldar fluff and play Eldar so I'll pick it up.

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

BrookM wrote:Read Path of the Warrior, Phoenix Lords are in it and it is explained how they keep on popping up over the millennia.

Is definitely on my list, have no fear. Have to work through Purging of Kadillus and some more first though!

You will LOVE it. Proves what you've said about Gav Thorpe of late. Now if only Graham McNeill could keep his stuff at Storm of Iron level . . .

About the Phoenix Lords: so am I missing something here about their immorality. I thought it was just adopting the Phoenix Lord persona but you meld souls? Cool.

Is it better than "Shadow King"? If so: it goes on my immediate read list

Wish I could tell you but ye Olde World has never managed to captivate my imagination!

Manchu wrote:About the Phoenix Lords: so am I missing something here about their immorality. I thought it was just adopting the Phoenix Lord persona but you meld souls? Cool.

Wait, you've read Path, right? It's related in there. But let's not spoil the book for those who haven't read it yet.

So, can anyone compare Gav's WHFB elf books to Path? Are The Sundering, Witch King, etc. this good? He really got into the elven mind in path. Is that approach taken in the fantasy books too?

And back on the original topic, has anyone here seen the pilot models for the Hornet, etc. up close? Wondering if there's anything different about them...

Personally I feel that the Sundering novels are on the same level as Path of the Warrior. They are really that good.

Yeah. I would say Path of the Warrior was definitely very good, but I really would say its a near-must for any Eldar fans.

Not so much if you're not an Eldar fan IMHO...

I'm not an Eldar fan but still enjoyed it an awful lot, mainly because it was fluffy, oh sorry, Gav doesn't like that word, I mean, so full of interesting background. And it hardly used the word Mon'Keigh thankfully.

Anyone else's first thought look something like this:

http://daddytypes.com/archive/hoth_rebel_hat.jpg

And then immediate second thought look like this:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbnql3aGeIIa4O5M:http://www.empireonline.com/images/features/moviegoers-guide-to-the-galaxy/empire-strikes-back.jpg&t=1

FINALLY A GREAT ROUGH RIDER MODELING OPPORTUNITY!!

Genius!

And I thought these things . . . smelled bad . . . on the outside.

tldr wrote:Anyone else's first thought look something like this:

http://daddytypes.com/archive/hoth_rebel_hat.jpg

And then immediate second thought look like this:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbnql3aGeIIa4O5M:http://www.empireonline.com/images/features/moviegoers-guide-to-the-galaxy/empire-strikes-back.jpg&t=1

FINALLY A GREAT ROUGH RIDER MODELING OPPORTUNITY!!

Nathonicus is already on it, and might be selling them through Troll Forged. I know this thread is way out of date, but it's the latest I could find (they are pretty much done now, I think): http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/229432.page

Several Hoth warriors including Tonton and turret have been available for Star Wars Miniatures, now OOP.

Phoenix Lords, according to Path of the Warrior, are unlike Exarchs in that they don't bond with the host and combine consciousness. At least not in the Exarch way. Becoming an exarch makes you a drop in a small cup. Becoming a Phoenix Lord makes you a drop in an Ocean, which is 99.99999999% made up of the conciousness of the original Phoenix Lord. You are effectively dead at that point, whereas the Exarch is more like becoming part of a very small infinity circuit.

Does the analogy make sense?

According to the book too, the entire Karrandras suit seemed to function like a giant soulstone, as there was swirling energy visible inside the suit itself when it got clocked by the enemy.

That's really cool. And it's also probably why every Aspect Shrine and their dog shouldn't have a Phoenix Lord.

In a sense there are three tiers of phoenix lords, and depending on your outlook you might not refer to all of them as true phoenix lords.

Even relatively new aspects must presumably have a founder who might reasonably be regarded as a phoenix lord by their followers. Once the founder dies another warrior would don their armour, but the personality of the new 'phoenix lord' would differ in much the same way as any exarch, so in this way they don't function in the same way as the established phoenix lords.

Once the aspect has been around for a long enough time the accumulated spirit contained in the founder's armour would be so overwhelming to the new owner that it would essentially take over, and the phoenix lord's personality would persist no matter how many times they died.

The final tier of phoenix lords are those that were around when Asurmen founded the aspects. If this is your criteria for phoenix lord-hood then there can be no more phoenix lords than those we know, and furthermore Karandras cannot be regarded as a phoenix lord since he wasn't among them. It seems much more reasonable to me to at least give the second tier of founding exarchs, as well as Karandras (since his personality has reached the same persistent state) the honour of being referred to as phoenix lords, but at the end of the day it's just a name.

On the other hand I can certainly see the advantages of keeping us in the dark about some of the phoenix lords/founding exarchs, since it gives players the chance to create their own background outside of the established lore. In that case though it would be nice if we were given more to work with in the codex.

MajorTom11 wrote:Phoenix Lords, according to Path of the Warrior, are unlike Exarchs in that...

Dude, several of us were trying not to spoilercize this fact for the many folks in the thread that just stated they had not read Path yet but really wanted to. Might you be so kind as to edit with the spoiler button please? I know it helps me a lot in, say, BL threads. Thanks.

What you say about PLs versus Exarchs is certainly true, but Temujin's theory also kind of follows and is what I was envisioning as well. The PLs had to get superawesomeimmortality somehow, and it was probably through a similar evolution. Thus the difference between PL and Exarch, a matter of degree, might be crossed.

Sure, the time of the Fall could have been different and the psychic potential of the Eldar greater as well as reality thinner. Or maybe contact with Asurmen, who may have some deific qualities, was the thing that made PLs super awesome all of a sudden. but continua are more interesting IMO and the possibility of new players in the story is pretty cool. Super-Warp-Spider? Awesome.

Savnock, you'd need you spoilerise your quote too in that case...

I want to see the ice imperial guard

Temujin wrote:In a sense there are three tiers of phoenix lords, and depending on your outlook you might not refer to all of them as true phoenix lords.

Even relatively new aspects must presumably have a founder who might reasonably be regarded as a phoenix lord by their followers. Once the founder dies another warrior would don their armour, but the personality of the new 'phoenix lord' would differ in much the same way as any exarch, so in this way they don't function in the same way as the established phoenix lords.

Once the aspect has been around for a long enough time the accumulated spirit contained in the founder's armour would be so overwhelming to the new owner that it would essentially take over, and the phoenix lord's personality would persist no matter how many times they died.

The final tier of phoenix lords are those that were around when Asurmen founded the aspects. If this is your criteria for phoenix lord-hood then there can be no more phoenix lords than those we know, and furthermore Karandras cannot be regarded as a phoenix lord since he wasn't among them. It seems much more reasonable to me to at least give the second tier of founding exarchs, as well as Karandras (since his personality has reached the same persistent state) the honour of being referred to as phoenix lords, but at the end of the day it's just a name.

On the other hand I can certainly see the advantages of keeping us in the dark about some of the phoenix lords/founding exarchs, since it gives players the chance to create their own background outside of the established lore. In that case though it would be nice if we were given more to work with in the codex.

That is the clearest I've ever seen Phoenix Lords explained. Thanks and you should post more!

Just Dave wrote:Savnock, you'd need you spoilerise your quote too in that case...

Uhm, good point. Doing so now.