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I think the general decline of the eldar had been happening for easily the 15 millenia period previously stated. They live at least ten times as long for a start. Plus when was the war with the necrontyr? (it's either 50,000, 100,000 or like a million years, damn halo has confused me). I think that is when the eldar where at their most powerful; blackstone fortresses etc and the fact they simply had enough manpower to take on the numberless hordes. Oh and btw Cadia is an ancient colony of mankind do you think a full strength eldar would let mankind colonise it? ('Blah blah necron obelisks' aside).

I believe The War with the necrontyr was like 60 million years ago.
Cadia was colonized after the Heresy I think.

IvanTih wrote:@Emperors Faithful
Battlefleet Gothic for example.

Each battlefleet normally consists of between 50 and 75 warships of varying size,although in some sectors this will be more or less,

I assumed that every fleet had a 50 ships,even if I reduce the number of ships per fleet we still get large numbers.

Of course it should be borne in mind that primitive, religious societies tend to chronicle numbers in terms of what sounds good, or mystical combinations, rather than what actually exists.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cadia Just thought i'd check my assumption was correct. This is assuming lexicanum is accurate of course. What is this obsession with the number of the fleet?!?! Countless billion troopers would surely require some ridiculously Huge fleet. If the '50' figure is referrring to battleship class and higher (And i think it is) i believe it, otherwise the fleet is 'incalculable in it's vastness'....

I think 50-75 ships for a battlefleet is a more than fair estimate. Don't even know why we're discussing that.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:I WAS talking about the pre-Imperium human empire. Yes, both existed at the same time, but they were not at their peak at the same time. The Eldar empire had been in decline for hundreds, if not thousands of years by the time the human race was spreading around the galaxy.

The Fall had begun a long time before, if we accept what the rulebook says about the Eldar empire existing when humans weren't even a species yet. They had reached their peak, and were at full dominance of space, and THEN began the thosand of years of decadence that slowly created Slaanesh. SO yes, the Eldar and human empires existed at the same time, but by the time the human empire was established, the Eldar were most liekly 100% focused on themselves, and their sheer decadence.

So then you subscribe to the 15,000+ year long fall theory then. I suppose I do too. Just wish GW would stop saying Eldar were at their peak at the time of collapse, obviously things were not going well at all.

But how would an empire last that long if they are all busy not caring?

BluntmanDC wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:I WAS talking about the pre-Imperium human empire. Yes, both existed at the same time, but they were not at their peak at the same time. The Eldar empire had been in decline for hundreds, if not thousands of years by the time the human race was spreading around the galaxy.

The Fall had begun a long time before, if we accept what the rulebook says about the Eldar empire existing when humans weren't even a species yet. They had reached their peak, and were at full dominance of space, and THEN began the thosand of years of decadence that slowly created Slaanesh. SO yes, the Eldar and human empires existed at the same time, but by the time the human empire was established, the Eldar were most liekly 100% focused on themselves, and their sheer decadence.

So then you subscribe to the 15,000+ year long fall theory then. I suppose I do too. Just wish GW would stop saying Eldar were at their peak at the time of collapse, obviously things were not going well at all.

But how would an empire last that long if they are all busy not caring?

Because that's like 150 years in "human years". Still a long time but I'm sure analogies could be made to Rome or other empires.
Let's just say it was one really long orgy...

IvanTih wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Never.
Remember when the Imperium lost millions of ships(5th edition rulebook) due some alien cyborg being executed by the Black Templar marines.

Never what? I'm honestly confused here.

I won't end this debate with you over the number of the Imperial Navy's ships.

But I don't even know why you are debating this. There must be some point behind the arguement here.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Never.
Remember when the Imperium lost millions of ships(5th edition rulebook) due some alien cyborg being executed by the Black Templar marines.

Never what? I'm honestly confused here.

I won't end this debate with you over the number of the Imperial Navy's ships.

But I don't even know why you are debating this. There must be some point behind the arguement here.

Never!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:I WAS talking about the pre-Imperium human empire. Yes, both existed at the same time, but they were not at their peak at the same time. The Eldar empire had been in decline for hundreds, if not thousands of years by the time the human race was spreading around the galaxy.

The Fall had begun a long time before, if we accept what the rulebook says about the Eldar empire existing when humans weren't even a species yet. They had reached their peak, and were at full dominance of space, and THEN began the thosand of years of decadence that slowly created Slaanesh. SO yes, the Eldar and human empires existed at the same time, but by the time the human empire was established, the Eldar were most liekly 100% focused on themselves, and their sheer decadence.

So then you subscribe to the 15,000+ year long fall theory then. I suppose I do too. Just wish GW would stop saying Eldar were at their peak at the time of collapse, obviously things were not going well at all.

But how would an empire last that long if they are all busy not caring?

Because that's like 150 years in "human years". Still a long time but I'm sure analogies could be made to Rome or other empires.
Let's just say it was one really long orgy...

The aging process of an Eldar doesn't matter, the fact that the Eldar empire exists in a universe means that they have other aliens to deal with. if their empire has been crumbling away for over a thousand years then that means that all those ork hordes and other aliens will be trying to steal a peice of that empire. This means that they wouldn't be able to live hedonistically as they are to busy trying to stop the threats.

My point is to be hedonistic the Eldar would have to have an empire at the peak of its ability. I would say that the Eldar stopped taking worlds, but their empire would still be as strong as possible.

well remember guys that at their height the Eldar Empire wasnt an empire like the modern EoM. They didnt care about anything BECAUSE they had legions of robots or whatever they called them doing everything imaginable for them. So a conflict between the Eldar Empire pre fall could of just meant a autonimous defence force tasked with just keeping the barbarians at bay and the borders safe while the REAL eldar where doing there thing.

Soooo taking that into consideration the Eldar society may well have been falling but, their civilization might have still been at its peak.

IvanTih wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Never.
Remember when the Imperium lost millions of ships(5th edition rulebook) due some alien cyborg being executed by the Black Templar marines.

Never what? I'm honestly confused here.

I won't end this debate with you over the number of the Imperial Navy's ships.

Please do, I've only just come back to the thread because the two of you put me off it.

Stop pulling numbers out of your arse and talking utter gibberish.

HiddenPower wrote:well remember guys that at their height the Eldar Empire wasnt an empire like the modern EoM. They didnt care about anything BECAUSE they had legions of robots or whatever they called them doing everything imaginable for them. So a conflict between the Eldar Empire pre fall could of just meant a autonimous defence force tasked with just keeping the barbarians at bay and the borders safe while the REAL eldar where doing there thing.

Soooo taking that into consideration the Eldar society may well have been falling but, their civilization might have still been at its peak.

Actually its The other way around. Eldar didn't have much in the way of AI whereas Humans during the Dark Age of Technology had robots that did everything. They didn't even have to wipe their own ass.
That's why I think Humanity simply kicked The Eldar's but all over the Galaxy.
Unfortunately, the robots turned on the humans as skynet style like they always do: Damn Robots!

HiddenPower wrote:well remember guys that at their height the Eldar Empire wasnt an empire like the modern EoM. They didnt care about anything BECAUSE they had legions of robots or whatever they called them doing everything imaginable for them. So a conflict between the Eldar Empire pre fall could of just meant a autonimous defence force tasked with just keeping the barbarians at bay and the borders safe while the REAL eldar where doing there thing.

Soooo taking that into consideration the Eldar society may well have been falling but, their civilization might have still been at its peak.

Precisely. The Eldar were at their peak as they gave themselves over to hedonism and depravity. They had a post scarcity (or post labor, rather) society. Almost no one had to work for things to keep running smoothly, and so they effectively went insane from boredom. The same thing, more or less, can be observed in humans, albeit on a radically smaller scale of course.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Actually its The other way around. Eldar didn't have much in the way of AI whereas Humans during the Dark Age of Technology had robots that did everything. They didn't even have to wipe their own ass.
That's why I think Humanity simply kicked The Eldar's but all over the Galaxy.
Unfortunately, the robots turned on the humans as skynet style like they always do: Damn Robots!

Who's to say that requires strong AI? No task requires sapient intelligence, only the processes that relate to its defined task. An agricultural facility AI, for instance, wouldn't need to be able discuss philosophy, or pass as a sentient being, it need only be able to determine soil quality, where/when crops should be planted, how to care for the crops as they're growing, etc. That doesn't require strong AI.


Who is to say the Age of Strife came upon the galaxy without any manner of warning? It's not as though there are records of that time, nor that "hey, things are getting a bit rough in the warp, maybe everything everywhere is going to become unreachable because of magic space storms of space magic?" is the necessary conclusion to a somewhat turbulent warp (and, considering that the eldar may very well have started their descent long before humans began disseminating throughout the galaxy, it might not have even elicited notice; if the warp slowly became rougher over time, no one would see it as the least bit unusual because it's not all that much worse than when they (as an individual) started running a ship or what have you to start with).


As an aside, on the "Dark age vs Golden age" thing, as I understand it the term "dark age" refers primarily to a lack of records documenting what was going on during a time period, and so it is murky or "dark" in the eyes of history, not that it is an age of barbarism or chaos. The two concepts get a little muddled together because of the stereotype of the "Dark ages" as being a few hundred years of constant war, raids, rape, and pillaging.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

HiddenPower wrote:well remember guys that at their height the Eldar Empire wasnt an empire like the modern EoM. They didnt care about anything BECAUSE they had legions of robots or whatever they called them doing everything imaginable for them. So a conflict between the Eldar Empire pre fall could of just meant a autonimous defence force tasked with just keeping the barbarians at bay and the borders safe while the REAL eldar where doing there thing.

Soooo taking that into consideration the Eldar society may well have been falling but, their civilization might have still been at its peak.

Precisely. The Eldar were at their peak as they gave themselves over to hedonism and depravity. They had a post scarcity (or post labor, rather) society. Almost no one had to work for things to keep running smoothly, and so they effectively went insane from boredom. The same thing, more or less, can be observed in humans, albeit on a radically smaller scale of course.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Actually its The other way around. Eldar didn't have much in the way of AI whereas Humans during the Dark Age of Technology had robots that did everything. They didn't even have to wipe their own ass.
That's why I think Humanity simply kicked The Eldar's but all over the Galaxy.
Unfortunately, the robots turned on the humans as skynet style like they always do: Damn Robots!

Who's to say that requires strong AI? No task requires sapient intelligence, only the processes that relate to its defined task. An agricultural facility AI, for instance, wouldn't need to be able discuss philosophy, or pass as a sentient being, it need only be able to determine soil quality, where/when crops should be planted, how to care for the crops as they're growing, etc. That doesn't require strong AI.


Who is to say the Age of Strife came upon the galaxy without any manner of warning? It's not as though there are records of that time, nor that "hey, things are getting a bit rough in the warp, maybe everything everywhere is going to become unreachable because of magic space storms of space magic?" is the necessary conclusion to a somewhat turbulent warp (and, considering that the eldar may very well have started their descent long before humans began disseminating throughout the galaxy, it might not have even elicited notice; if the warp slowly became rougher over time, no one would see it as the least bit unusual because it's not all that much worse than when they (as an individual) started running a ship or what have you to start with).


As an aside, on the "Dark age vs Golden age" thing, as I understand it the term "dark age" refers primarily to a lack of records documenting what was going on during a time period, and so it is murky or "dark" in the eyes of history, not that it is an age of barbarism or chaos. The two concepts get a little muddled together because of the stereotype of the "Dark ages" as being a few hundred years of constant war, raids, rape, and pillaging.

I don't know what you'd refer to as "strong AI" but Humanity had fully sentient AI. That's about as strong as it gets.
It's called The Dark Age of Technology because its looked at through the "modern" lens of crazy religous superstition to the point were in 40K AI actually stands for Abomitable Intelligence. Because of the proliference of AI it really is viewed as the Dark Age by The Imperium. However in reality The Age of Imperium is humanity's darkest age so dark and ignorant that they think they're in a Golden age and that their golden age was a dark age.
It's one of those ironic things.

I was talking about the Eldar: they had a post labor society, which means that all (or almost all) labor was automated, but that doesn't require (and would probably be hindered by the proliferation of) strong AI (artificial sapience).


I don't think you understand what I'm saying about the dark age thing: the term "dark age" (when properly used) refers to a lack of records from, and contemporary knowledge of, a past age. It's generally misconstrued as meaning an age of barbarism or chaos (misinterpreting the "dark" as meaning "evil" or "bleak" or somesuch, rather than "cloudy" or "obscured" when viewed through the eyes of history).

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:I was talking about the Eldar: they had a post labor society, which means that all (or almost all) labor was automated, but that doesn't require (and would probably be hindered by the proliferation of) strong AI (artificial sapience).


I don't think you understand what I'm saying about the dark age thing: the term "dark age" (when properly used) refers to a lack of records from, and contemporary knowledge of, a past age. It's generally misconstrued as meaning an age of barbarism or chaos (misinterpreting the "dark" as meaning "evil" or "bleak" or somesuch, rather than "cloudy" or "obscured" when viewed through the eyes of history).

1)oh, Indeed.

2)oh, You're talking about the real Dark Age. Well it does mean all those I think it also refers to the return to barbarism or rather just the fall of civilization. Not sure the two can be seperated. And misinterpretations about the real one or not I'm saying The Imperiumers are using the same interpretations/misinterpretations/connontations about their fictional one

Is there evidence to support the idea that "dark age" was intentionally misused in the fluff (originally, that is)? I can see subsequent commenters mistaking it for that, and if they happen to be someone whose word ends up in canon...

Dark Age of Technology = Height of Human Empire. It's only called the 'Dark Age' because there are no records from that time. As such, no one knows anything about it, thus it's a dark age!

Even in the sense of the Earth's Medieval 'Dark Age' it was only called that because Renaissance scholars viewed the Middle Ages as a 'dark' time between the light of the ancient world, and the light of their own world. It in no way implies a living hell of misery and warfare, although such an environment often does exist.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Is there evidence to support the idea that "dark age" was intentionally misused in the fluff (originally, that is)? I can see subsequent commenters mistaking it for that, and if they happen to be someone whose word ends up in canon...

Basically just what I said before. The Mechanicum dubs it the dark age because humanity was advancing and inventing at exponential rates. That of course is completely frowned upon now. It's a form of Mechanicum propaganda.

ChrisWWII wrote:Dark Age of Technology = Height of Human Empire. It's only called the 'Dark Age' because there are no records from that time. As such, no one knows anything about it, thus it's a dark age!

Actually, I'd debate that there really wasn't a single 'Empire' of humanity as we know it today. Granted you could still call it humanities height, but I think the expansion of humanity at that time was far more prolific (competitive) and uncontrolled then it ever could be if united as a single entity (which would be infinitely more ponderous, though probably not to the Administratum's standards).

actually I thought the Dark Age of technology was called so beacuse it didnt have the bright guidance of the omnisiah. which of course led to the war with the men of iron?

wait where does this fall in the time line? cuz wasnt that terminator like war against the machines a major event?

Well, that is of course debatable. I'd argue that the Human civilization (I think we can agree on that word) would have to have had some kind of guiding influence from Terra, or at least had constant communication with Terra, given that things went to hell so quickly when the warp storms kicked in.

It probably wasn't an Empire like the Imperium, but I'm thinking there must have been SOME galactic power structure.

ChrisWWII wrote:Well, that is of course debatable. I'd argue that the Human civilization (I think we can agree on that word) would have to have had some kind of guiding influence from Terra, or at least had constant communication with Terra, given that things went to hell so quickly when the warp storms kicked in.

It wasn't just Terra that was disrupted, many planets were cut off or isolated completely. It wasn't so much as being completely cut off from one another that led to the Age of Strife, but being split up into many many divisional factions. Each one easy prey to anarchy or xenos intrusion. But AGAIN, we don't know what it was that cause the Strife.

It probably wasn't an Empire like the Imperium, but I'm thinking there must have been SOME galactic power structure.

Who knows? Perhaps the different human expansion groups were not too disimilar from our Earth nations today. With all that space to expand out into, I can imagine Earth nations splitting off in all directions (this is of course assuming either that habitable planets in 40k are much more common, that terraforming was possible at that time or both).

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

HiddenPower wrote:well remember guys that at their height the Eldar Empire wasnt an empire like the modern EoM. They didnt care about anything BECAUSE they had legions of robots or whatever they called them doing everything imaginable for them. So a conflict between the Eldar Empire pre fall could of just meant a autonimous defence force tasked with just keeping the barbarians at bay and the borders safe while the REAL eldar where doing there thing.

Soooo taking that into consideration the Eldar society may well have been falling but, their civilization might have still been at its peak.

Precisely. The Eldar were at their peak as they gave themselves over to hedonism and depravity. They had a post scarcity (or post labor, rather) society. Almost no one had to work for things to keep running smoothly, and so they effectively went insane from boredom. The same thing, more or less, can be observed in humans, albeit on a radically smaller scale of course.

I'm under the same impression as you two. The Eldar's fall was a result of reaching a peak. But I wouldn't say they went insane from boredom, they just had nothing pressing to bring them back to reality while indulging themselves.


As for earlier talk of IoM vs. Eldar, I'd honestly put my money on the Eldar in the long run. Firstly, either Eldar would see it coming, or they'd be the ones starting it for their benefit, which ever the case it would be the IoM on the back foot initially. Secondly the IoM as a whole seam pretty disorganized and wouldn't be able to react to the Eldars likely skirmisher tactics. And thirdly a three part question... Isn't there a webway portal on Terra? Is it far fetched to assume that at least one craftworld has access to a planet destroying weapon/bomb? Given the first point about Eldar seeing it coming, is anyone else following my train of thought?

The Emperor is keeping that Webway portal closed with his psychic might. Not to mention, it's infested with daemons since Magnus's message broke it open.

I'd honestly say the Eldar are too much a broken species to be a threat now. They'd do a lot of damage yeah, but just the sheer amount of crap the Imperium could throw at them if it got really pissed off? Sooner or later they'd go down, even if it took 100,000 dead humans for ever Eldar life taken.

The Imperium seems disorganized, but if it ever really, REALLY set its mind to something? It'd take care of it. The Administratum may be a huge beuraucracy, but if something important enough to give them a giant kick in the collective rear, I have a feeling they'd move a bit faster.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:Dark Age of Technology = Height of Human Empire. It's only called the 'Dark Age' because there are no records from that time. As such, no one knows anything about it, thus it's a dark age!

Actually, I'd debate that there really wasn't a single 'Empire' of humanity as we know it today. Granted you could still call it humanities height, but I think the expansion of humanity at that time was far more prolific (competitive) and uncontrolled then it ever could be if united as a single entity (which would be infinitely more ponderous, though probably not to the Administratum's standards).

Well it's debatable whether or not a unified Empire is effective or not you're right about them not being a unified people. Which once again raises the question what's The Eldar problem? The mightest empire in the Galaxy cannot take down these scattered and disorganzied usurpers!?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HiddenPower wrote:actually I thought the Dark Age of technology was called so beacuse it didnt have the bright guidance of the omnisiah. which of course led to the war with the men of iron?

wait where does this fall in the time line? cuz wasnt that terminator like war against the machines a major event?

yep, I think that was in M25. Lot of bad things happened in M25.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:Well, that is of course debatable. I'd argue that the Human civilization (I think we can agree on that word) would have to have had some kind of guiding influence from Terra, or at least had constant communication with Terra, given that things went to hell so quickly when the warp storms kicked in.

It wasn't just Terra that was disrupted, many planets were cut off or isolated completely. It wasn't so much as being completely cut off from one another that led to the Age of Strife, but being split up into many many divisional factions. Each one easy prey to anarchy or xenos intrusion. But AGAIN, we don't know what it was that cause the Strife.

It probably wasn't an Empire like the Imperium, but I'm thinking there must have been SOME galactic power structure.

Who knows? Perhaps the different human expansion groups were not too disimilar from our Earth nations today. With all that space to expand out into, I can imagine Earth nations splitting off in all directions (this is of course assuming either that habitable planets in 40k are much more common, that terraforming was possible at that time or both).

ah yes, I forgot about that. Humanity wasn't just colonizing a lot of planets back then but making their own. Still worrisome from the Eldar's point of view but less antagonistic than them taking them. I guess that could lead to less open conflict.

Henners91 wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Never.
Remember when the Imperium lost millions of ships(5th edition rulebook) due some alien cyborg being executed by the Black Templar marines.

Never what? I'm honestly confused here.

I won't end this debate with you over the number of the Imperial Navy's ships.

Please do, I've only just come back to the thread because the two of you put me off it.

Stop pulling numbers out of your arse and talking utter gibberish.

Listen you idi**.
I provide quotes,use other sources to calc them.I try to find middle end.

ChrisWWII wrote: Sooner or later they'd go down, even if it took 100,000 dead humans for ever Eldar life taken.

These casualties are acceptable.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:Dark Age of Technology = Height of Human Empire. It's only called the 'Dark Age' because there are no records from that time. As such, no one knows anything about it, thus it's a dark age!

Actually, I'd debate that there really wasn't a single 'Empire' of humanity as we know it today. Granted you could still call it humanities height, but I think the expansion of humanity at that time was far more prolific (competitive) and uncontrolled then it ever could be if united as a single entity (which would be infinitely more ponderous, though probably not to the Administratum's standards).

Well it's debatable whether or not a unified Empire is effective or not you're right about them not being a unified people. Which once again raises the question what's The Eldar problem? The mightest empire in the Galaxy cannot take down these scattered and disorganzied usurpers!?

The Eldar didn't have a problem. Humanities first taste of Eldar might (Pre-Fall) probably would have been enough to set them running. They did have the entirety of the galaxy to expand out into, and orks would in comparison appear much less threatening than the Pre-Fall eldar.

ah yes, I forgot about that. Humanity wasn't just colonizing a lot of planets back then but making their own. Still worrisome from the Eldar's point of view but less antagonistic than them taking them. I guess that could lead to less open conflict.

Essentially, the Eldar probably didn't give a damn so long as their Empire borders were well established. With the technology to quench suns or birth garden worlds on little more than a whim the need to expand would have lost its appeal, and the interest in the affairs outside their borders would have lessened.

So from the discussion I guess we can boil it down to 3 possibilties:

A) The Eldar were in decline.
Although everything officially went to hell in M30 the road to damnation began well before M15 for the long lived aliens. The remaining Eldar were too busy becoming The Dark Eldar and becoming refugees from their own civiliation to really do anything about this new race taking over the Galaxy. The Fall was underway.

B) The Eldar's power has always been overexagerated.
Actually The Eldar are not that big a deal and never were. Yes, they were the dominant civilization in the Galaxy but they never owned it in a way that the modern Imperium would claim with a million worlds. Though their technological and societal acheivements were incredible they are not a prolific people. They cannot spread rapidly like Humans and Orks and so mainly their empire, though impressive, was mainly localized within what is now The Eye of Terror. Also part of this theory is that Humanity tech level was very high at this time. Basically on par with the Eldar in many areas. The Eldar couldn't stop humanity if they wanted to, they lacked both the numbers and the wherewithal.

C)They did.
The Eldar do not fight war in a way Humanity can understand. Throwing waves upon waves of infantry at their opponent like primitives. They pull at the skeins of possibilties and tamper with fate. By pulling at a few thread here and there Humanity as a society was undone. Humanity's own creations, the men of iron, turned on them and finally humanity turned on itself fighting a million intercinine wars and descended into Old Night. In a few short millennia The Mon'Keigh were back to swinging clubs at each other.

So interested in knowing what you think and what's your vote?