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So half the people who have a problem with lotr because it takes resources away from them making specialist games, and the other half because other games take stuff away from 40k and fantasy

What surprises me is the expectation that GW would use the
loss of the LOTR license to accelerate and expand 40k and
Fantasy.

I don't see how it affects GW at all.

Mithril continues to this day to produce LotR miniatures, as they have for 20+ years. Little metal men just like GW produce, but not quite as detailed as GW's sculpts.

It seems GW isn't as exclusive to the license or GW have a very specific license as I imagine all others who have a license do.

FFG have a license to produce board games for LotR, but other companies produce them concurrently with FFG. Rio Grande games for instance produces LotR board games as well.

To the layman, it would appear that just because GW produces miniatures for their wargames using the LotR license, doesn't necessarily mean that they have exclusive rights.

I suppose clix games and collectors miniatures are deemed just different enough to warrant their own license opportunity.

WK may have gone out of business, but they have been bought by NECA who has some very lucrative rights to things that nerds love. Hell, they are coming out with two different star trek games using the clix mechanic modified by Dr. Reiner Knizia. He is arguably the most financially successful games designer who has ever lived. I normally dislike his games, but many people buy games just because his name is plastered on the cover.

Judging by the expansion of clix, it seems that its not doing as badly as some people may think. Kind of like LotR for GW. People think that the numerous anecdotes of "I don't ever see that game being played at my GW" somehow equals relevant data. Apparently, it's successful enough to make profit from.

I thought the GW license was explicitly for the 'movie' look, although it was later expanded to cover stuff in books. The previous licensees were more based on older looks for the characters and such.

Reiner Knizia is possibly the most successful game designer ever.

If he is rewriting the Clix rules they will be well worth a look, though not as an in-depth tabletop system.

Balance wrote:I thought the GW license was explicitly for the 'movie' look, although it was later expanded to cover stuff in books. The previous licensees were more based on older looks for the characters and such.

That's where the licenses obviously overlap (literary rights to create sculpts of characters not in the movies). Both companies (and possibly more) have tom bombadil, Cirdan, etc. So the licensing is not as transparent as some may beleive.

I think it is as silly to assume that LotR is "stealing" production from fantasy and 40k as it is to assume that LotR isn't being played. This is GW: The Greed Workshop after all.

If it weren't being played, or at least purchased, it wouldn't be making them any money and you can see what they do to game systems and armies that don't make them money, they get dropped. Or they get left floating in limbo for years while new editions make them more and more outdated. Make no mistake, LotR makes GW a lot of money, even after the famous "LotR bubble" burst back in '04/'05, and this is evidenced by the fact that it's still around. Specialist games, as fun as they are, don't make GW money so they get canned. Codex: EveryoneExceptMarines is awesome, but they don't sell as much so they get left to rot for years till GW can get around to em without hurting it's overall sales compared to if they had just released more marines.

And to think that it takes away from 40k and fantasy releases? Obviously LotR makes GW money or they would have dropped it years ago. If they did drop it, that means GW has less money. Less money means they spend less on new miniatures. GW is big enough that they can easily expand production to meet their needs, and hire dev teams to bring out new rules, but they haven't been, they've been shrinking. So obviously it's a mater of economics, not of the same people being split between multiple systems.

Even if you don't play it, even if you hate it, LotR is GOOD for 40k and fantasy.

GW employees received an announcement from their employer last year stating that the Lord Of The Rings license had been renewed for several more years. The WizKids license has nothing to do with GW's license for LotR products and one would expect GW to continue producing LotR products for years to come at least until the renewed license expires.

And acquired has a "c" in it.

Kalamadea wrote:And to think that it takes away from 40k and fantasy releases? Obviously LotR makes GW money or they would have dropped it years ago.

They couldn't have dropped it years ago, since (supposedly) they were contractually obliged to a regular release schedule.

The fact that they expanded and renewed the licence does suggest that it's doing ok, though.

GW have said all along that LotR doesn't sell to the same crowd as their other two core games... From what they've said in the past, based (supposedly) on their own market research, the majority of people buying LotR are collectors just after the miniatures, or people playing at home, rather than people in the regular gaming crowd. Which is why so many people in WHFB or 40K circles claim to have never seen anyone playing it... the people who are playing it are doing it in different places.

puma713 wrote:

I think that view is a bit myopic compared to what I was saying. I didn't mean that because I haven't seen it played in three states in the US, means it's not being played anywhere - but you don't have to be a genius to take the temperature of the LotR climate from different sources. From forums, from talking to other gamers, from experience, to the support that it is getting from stores and GW itself.

While what you're saying is true - only GW knows - I've yet to see LotR crowding the tables at events or product flying off the shelves (in fact, I'm not sure the FLGS that we frequent in Alabama and Tennessee even carry LotR).

insaniak wrote:
They couldn't have dropped it years ago, since (supposedly) they were contractually obliged to a regular release schedule.

The fact that they expanded and renewed the licence does suggest that it's doing ok, though.

GW have said all along that LotR doesn't sell to the same crowd as their other two core games... From what they've said in the past, based (supposedly) on their own market research, the majority of people buying LotR are collectors just after the miniatures, or people playing at home, rather than people in the regular gaming crowd. Which is why so many people in WHFB or 40K circles claim to have never seen anyone playing it... the people who are playing it are doing it in different places.

Puma,

I was actually going to say exactly what insaniak posted above.

While we can't know for sure how LotR sells globally (only GW knows that) the fact that they renewed the license makes a fairly strong case that it does do some sort of business. And the fact that you DON'T see a ton of LotR players in tournaments or at the game stores is a pretty telling sign that it sells to a different type of gamer, which makes it all the more valuable a commodity to GW.

malfred wrote:What surprises me is the expectation that GW would use the
loss of the LOTR license to accelerate and expand 40k and
Fantasy.

Good point

I also agree with what insaniak posted above... it is more than likely a different audience, which is pretty valuable for a niche company, even one as large as GW.

The people that play in my area are a different crowd than your average GW customer.

insaniak wrote:

Kalamadea wrote:And to think that it takes away from 40k and fantasy releases? Obviously LotR makes GW money or they would have dropped it years ago.

They couldn't have dropped it years ago, since (supposedly) they were contractually obliged to a regular release schedule.

The fact that they expanded and renewed the licence does suggest that it's doing ok, though.

GW have said all along that LotR doesn't sell to the same crowd as their other two core games... From what they've said in the past, based (supposedly) on their own market research, the majority of people buying LotR are collectors just after the miniatures, or people playing at home, rather than people in the regular gaming crowd. Which is why so many people in WHFB or 40K circles claim to have never seen anyone playing it... the people who are playing it are doing it in different places.

I know that if I were to play LotR, I wouldn't play it at any of my local game shops that exist right now.

I've noticed far too many people acting superior whenever they see a LotR game going on locally. Or complaining that the tables aren't open for them to play 40k/Fantasy(bear in mind though; the people who complain about being "unable to play Fantasy on these tables" flake out on Fantasy games anyways).

Another thing that GW said regarding the audience was that it supposedly had a lot of overlap with historical gamers, which I thought was kind of unique.

sonofruss wrote:The people that play in my area are a different crowd than your average GW customer.

I don't have time for LotR due to my already massive hobby backlog from Warhammer ranges, but I've noticed this is also true at my local game store. On 40K night the store smells like a moldy locker room with a filthy open latrine while on Lord Of The Rings night the store is relatively odor free. There are also way fewer ridiculous, angry, nitpicking rules arguments and apparent incidents of cheating during LotR and WotR games than there are during Warhammer games. So, yeah, I would say LotR draws a "different crowd than your average GW customer". On average, more LotR players bathe regularly and are less prone to be belligerent, have bad manners, cheat or argue about ridiculous crap that spoils the fun and atmosphere in the entire store.

The only "problem" that I have with LotR's existence is that it further dilutes GW's release schedule. Not their resources, but their ability to get things out for WHFB and WH40K in a more timely fashion. And even then, I doubt that we'd see 40k and Fantasy releases more quickly if LotR wasn't a factor.

BrassScorpion wrote:

sonofruss wrote:The people that play in my area are a different crowd than your average GW customer.

I don't have time for LotR due to my already massive hobby backlog from Warhammer ranges, but I've noticed this is also true at my local game store. On 40K night the store smells like a moldy locker room with a filthy open latrine while on Lord Of The Rings night the store is relatively odor free. There are also way fewer ridiculous, angry, nitpicking rules arguments and apparent incidents of cheating during LotR and WotR games than there are during Warhammer games. So, yeah, I would say LotR draws a "different crowd than your average GW customer". On average, more LotR players bathe regularly and are less prone to be belligerent, have bad manners, cheat or argue about ridiculous crap that spoils the fun and atmosphere in the entire store.

Back when people actually played it there were two camps of LotR players at my local store. There were a few older guys that came in with their kids and playerd some games. They were pretty "normal" and laid back and you could have conversations about stuff with them that wasn't GW focused. The larger segment was little kids with shrill voices that stunk up the area around the tables super funky.

As far as I can tell most of them in my area are D&D players who grew up with the books and want to replicate the battle scenes from the book rather than from the movie but to each his or her own.
I don't think a clix game will fly off the shelves but you never know.

In Germany, DeAgostini sold magazines with one GW plastic sprue plus a bit of rules/painting tips etc. Because of superb marketing, these magazines flew off the shelves of mag stores, bringing new young gamers to the hobby and eventually GW and FLGS stores. GW didn't like that and stopped the cooperation.

Wizkids doesn't have that cooperation, so they invest in another risky release at the same time to double the risk :
Star Trek:
http://wizkidsgames.com/startrek/star-trek-expeditions/
http://wizkidsgames.com/startrek/star-trek-fleet-captains/

Not just Germany, but also the Netherlands and Spain. Also, not just plastics but also the odd metal figure.

So if it works, why would GW put a stop to it then? GW makes no sense sometimes.

They would not make very good Vulcans at all. Not logical at all.

Kroothawk wrote:In Germany, DeAgostini sold magazines with one GW plastic sprue plus a bit of rules/painting tips etc. Because of superb marketing, these magazines flew off the shelves of mag stores, bringing new young gamers to the hobby and eventually GW and FLGS stores. GW didn't like that and stopped the cooperation.

Wizkids doesn't have that cooperation, so they invest in another risky release at the same time to double the risk :
Star Trek:
http://wizkidsgames.com/startrek/star-trek-expeditions/
http://wizkidsgames.com/startrek/star-trek-fleet-captains/

Wasn't aware GW put the kibosh on it. Source?

Davor wrote:So if it works, why would GW put a stop to it then? GW makes no sense sometimes.

They would not make very good Vulcans at all. Not logical at all.

They didn't. DeAgostini did.

But that won't stop people from blaming GW anyways.

shealyr wrote:This shouldn't effect GW at all.

Too bad. When I read the title I was hoping that GW lost the license so they can focus solely on 40k and WHFB.

Exactly. The LoTR releases might impact potential codex releases. I want my Tau and Chaos Space Marines updated soonest.

Trevak Dal wrote:

shealyr wrote:This shouldn't effect GW at all.

Too bad. When I read the title I was hoping that GW lost the license so they can focus solely on 40k and WHFB.

Exactly. The LoTR releases might impact potential codex releases. I want my Tau and Chaos Space Marines updated soonest.

Considering the 40k/WHFB designers tend to not be the LotR designers...LotR doesn't really affect your Codex/Army book updates.

Not to mention LotR releases what? A single book every few years, covering multiple small lists?

That's irrelevant to me, as they are a perfect scapegoat (next to Loyalist Marines) to pin my annoyance to.

Kalamadea wrote:Even if you don't play it, even if you hate it, LotR is GOOD for 40k and fantasy.

That is an important bit to remember really and is often forgotten or willfully ignored.

yakface wrote:And the fact that you DON'T see a ton of LotR players in tournaments or at the game stores is a pretty telling sign that it sells to a different type of gamer, which makes it all the more valuable a commodity to GW.

Agreed. This brings us back to Kalamadea's point. This is a target demographic outside of the usual circles that GW normally hits, by design or accident. Thus a highly lucrative (by anybody's standards) license to possess.

The success of GW as a whole (and by proxy the games you enjoy that they produce) is tied to each other in a symbiotic relationship. Without 40K and WHFB, there wouldnt be awesome LotR models. Without GW's LotR license, there would be FAR less 40K and WHFB awesomeness to be enjoyed.

Main point of this is that LotR doesn't offer dilution to those who enjoy 40K or WHFB, but it does offer expansion.

when GW aquired the LOTR licence and starting producing the models for the fellowship it caused the share price to spike astronomically even as much as they were in the FT as a must buy share due to the revenue it was generating, if they hold the liecene when the Hobbit finnally gets done it will boost the lotr sales as the movie will drive people to play the system again. I dont find anything wrong with the lotr systems and wotr think its a decent game.


quite a few of my friends play it and collect the lotr ranges, yet wouldnt be caught dead playing a game in a gw store, and when they buy its hurridly and mostly do it from the website, i think this applies to quite a few lotr collectors as well